Best targets for Mutate?

[Cyberium]

Would've truly make mutated creature a "monster", but I guess you can't have totem armor on all of them.

I presume blinking would still bring back everything though?

[ilovesaprolings]

I presume blinking would still bring back everything though?

Of course. Same with luminous broodmoth

[DaButtshark]

From everything I've seen, the mechanic is going to operate similarly to meld with its rules interactions.

Also, Insidious Mist is a bit slow but offers some strong upside. I think things like Thrun, the Last Troll might be strong, and potentially even Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar for EDH even though she's a 6-cost.

I'm interested to see how Dungrove Elder effects end up working out. It seems like they might have potential, but it likely depends on the level of land-based ramp in your deck.

[ApocalypseChive]

No Invisible Stalker mention yet? oops human
But Silhana Ledgewalker? Evasive hexproof stuff is the first place I would go to negate the card disadvantage risk.

[TerrorChicken]

Surprised that I haven't seen Sigarda, Host of Herons referenced yet!

[MeowZeDung]

Surprised that I haven't seen Sigarda, Host of Herons referenced yet!

vadrok, Apex of thunder and Otrimi, the ever-playful can't run it, so GW targets aren't on folks radars.

Edit: I know there's the abzan guy, but I feel like these two are the strongest and getting the most attention.

[ilovesaprolings]

Can i get official rulings on what happens to mutated endless cockroaches or phytotitan, or if you give undying to a mutate stack?

[DaButtshark]

DISCLAIMER: As of now, no official rules interactions have been posted for mutate, so an official ruling is not possible.

A rules AMA was held by WOTC containing relevant answers to questions in this thread (AMA Here)

However, based on what we've seen so far and the nature of the cards you mentioned, we can guesstimate.

Mutate applies on the battlefield but when changing zones the cards separate again (Rules Article). Anyways, undying triggers technically occur once a card is in the graveyard, and as such the mutate stack would have separated so only one card would reanimate (rules reference below). Based on what we know, I believe the reanimated card will be whatever was on the top of the stack, as it was technically the card with the static ability at the time of the death trigger

603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but arent limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

[Wallycaine]

DISCLAIMER: As of now, no official rules interactions have been posted for mutate, so an official ruling is not possible.

However, based on what we've seen so far and the nature of the cards you mentioned, we can guesstimate.

Mutate applies on the battlefield but when changing zones the cards separate again (Rules Article). Anyways, undying triggers technically occur once a card is in the graveyard, and as such the mutate stack would have separated so only one card would reanimate (rules reference below). Based on what we know, I believe the reanimated card will be whatever was on the top of the stack, as it was technically the card with the static ability at the time of the death trigger

603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but arent limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

That is incorrect. The entire stack returns to hand/play, as confirmed here:

[DaButtshark]

Don't know how I missed this AMA, thanks for the link/clarification!

[darrenhabib]

This was the top post from that Q+A.

How does mutating a card that exiles and returns transformed (Nissa, Vastwood Seer, etc) work if it's the top card? If it's not?

You'll exile the entire permanent, including all of the cards that represent it. Any that can return transformed do so separately; any that can't stay in exile. (No matter what's on top)

How does mutating a flip card like Akki Lavarunner work if it's the top card? If it's not?

Any permanent can flip; the alternative characteristics are used if flipped, not used if not flipped. (No matter what's on top)

How does mutating a werewolf DFC (or some other DFC that doesn't have to leave the battlefield) work if it's the top card? If it's not?

To transform a merged permanent, it must contain at least one DFC. Otherwise it's not legal to transform it. If you do, turn every DFC component of the merged permanent to its other face. (No matter what's on top)

If I copy a pile o' mutated cards with a Clone, what does the copy look like?

The copy looks like the mutated creature. All the mutation modifications are copiable. The copy hasn't mutated yet, though.

How does mutating a temporarily-a-creature thing like a vehicle or animated manland work if it's the top card? If it's not?

When the effect ends, the top card determines whether or not it's still a creature. It may have some weird abilities, but nothing that can't already happen in some oddball way.

What happens if I flicker a mutated permanent?

All the components return separately.

How does mutating a morph or manifest creature work if it's the top Card? If it's not?

The top card determines whether the merged permanent is face up or face down. If the permanent is face down, it's a 2/2 blob. Otherwise, the face-down card doesn't contribute any abilities to the merged permanent.

If someone has a big ol' pile of mutated stuff, and their commander is in that pile, what happens if I hit 'em with the ol' Leadership Vaccuum? Does the whole pile get Command Zoned, and then any noncommander card is just stuck there?

The whole pile goes to the command zone and can't leave. Just the commander card.

If my mutation pile has persist (and no counter on it), will all the cards from the pile return with -1/-1 counters or only whichever card contributed the persist ability?

They all return with counters.

---

So Undying or Persist is pretty strong as all the creatures will return to play with the +1/+1 or -1/-1 counter.

Also it looks like man lands (Inkmoth Nexus, etc) have merit as unlike Auras, the mutation is part of the card, so when it stops becoming a creature the cards remain. This gives it a bit more protection against sorcery speed removal. Admittedly a Strip Mine, etc then becomes a problem.

[ilovesaprolings]

If someone has a big ol' pile of mutated stuff, and their commander is in that pile, what happens if I hit 'em with the ol' Leadership Vaccuum? Does the whole pile get Command Zoned, and then any noncommander card is just stuck there?

The whole pile goes to the command zone and can't leave. Just the commander card.

I hope they will change this interaction honestly, Feels really terrible and uninteded

[pokken]

The more and more of this stuff comes out the more I think it's gonna be critical to play sac outlets in most mutate decks

[ilovesaprolings]

The more and more of this stuff comes out the more I think it's gonna be critical to play sac outlets in most mutate decks

Why do you think that?

[pokken]

The more and more of this stuff comes out the more I think it's gonna be critical to play sac outlets in most mutate decks

Why do you think that?

It depends I guess on how hard you go on hexproof, but theft effects and leadership vacuum can be really, really punishing. Also a single exile spell can cost you a lot too (since it exiles both dudes). The main general (Otrimi, the Ever-Playful) also has a graveyard recovery effect.

Heck, nethroi and brokkos both have graveyard shenanigans too.

[darrenhabib]

These are creatures that return to hand when dies, which will return all the creatures in the mutation pile.

Mortus Strider, Relentless Dead, Ringskipper (maybe), Endless Cockroaches, Immortal Phoenix, Shivan Phoenix, Weatherseed Treefolk.

Some Gods have a delayed until end of turn, but will still return all the critters; The Locust God, The Scarab God, The Scorpion God, Brood of Cockroaches.

Together Forever and Fool's Demise are noncreatures that are reusable.

[Cyberium]

Almost like a guarantee to need Persist/Undying creatures, though it will benefit a lot more to bounce back to hand, so you can mutate again.

[MeowZeDung]

I'm becoming more and more sold on hexproof targets for my mutations.

With vadrok, Apex of thunder I'll probably go the unsummon/disperse/peel from reality/crystal shard route to mutate it over and over, but unfortunately no access to the cheap hexproof from gladecover scout and Slippery bogle, so I'll probably take some risks on indestructible creatures to mutate.

Otrimi, the ever-playful gets more hexproof buddies, but doesn't really care about a return to hand strategy as much. I want to leverage the 6/6 trample body as much as possible to beat down and maybe get value from the combat trigger once or twice a game. I think swiftfoot boots on a cold-eyed selkie and Yotrimi on top is pretty ideal. Throw a basilisk collar in the mix and have some fun!

Tl;Dr vadrok seems ideal for a "mutate repeatedly for value" build, and Otrimi seems voltron centric.

[MeowZeDung]

It suddenly occurs to me: if you mutate a creature, is it summoning sick since it is a new creature on the battlefield and not a creature without summoning sickness that had an aura slapped on it? If so, Otrimi is a little less awesome.

[Maluko]

It suddenly occurs to me: if you mutate a creature, is it summoning sick since it is a new creature on the battlefield and not a creature without summoning sickness that had an aura slapped on it? If so, Otrimi is a little less awesome.

It is not summoning sick, I'm positively sure. The mutated creature simply acquires new characteristics, but it remains the same object. This is the reason why mutating doesn't trigger enters-the-battlefield abilities. So as soon as you mutate, you can attack with the mutated creature, no matter if it was mutated on top or on bottom of the mutating pile.

[MeowZeDung]

Assuming one half of the mutation was already on the battlefield and not summoning sick, of course. Mutant doesn't automatically grant haste.

Thanks for clarifying!

[ilovesaprolings]

Tl;Dr vadrok seems ideal for a "mutate repeatedly for value" build, and Otrimi seems voltron centric.

Brokkos seems better for voltron. Vadrox is good for mutate/control, Otrimi looks good just general mutate synergies because there are a lot of black and green strong mutators

[MeowZeDung]

Tl;Dr vadrok seems ideal for a "mutate repeatedly for value" build, and Otrimi seems voltron centric.

Brokkos seems better for voltron. Vadrox is good for mutate/control, Otrimi looks good just general mutate synergies because there are a lot of black and green strong mutators

Otrimi doesn't have a mutate trigger though, and honestly I think building around Otrimi's combat damage trigger is a mistake. I'll absolutely include some other mutants and hope for the value, but building around once a turn hand recursion seems very ho-hum.

[pokken]

Otrimi doesn't have a mutate trigger though, and honestly I think building around Otrimi's combat damage trigger is a mistake. I'll absolutely include some other mutants and hope for the value, but building around once a turn hand recursion seems very ho-hum.

I think building a deck that a major focus is being able to get value out of combat damage from a 6/6 trample with haste and possibly another bucket of keywords is fairly achievable and not that difficult at all.

The keys I think are:
1) Reliably have mutate creatures to get -- this goes hand in hand with a self-milling and possibly to-graveyard-tutor and reanimation/graveyard reuse theme, which is really easy to achieve. Just play buried alive, entomb, some mill effects, greater good, other strong sac outlets like momentous fall that are just strong anyway.

2) Clones so you can have multiple copies of him that protect himself. You clone him on the bottom of one stack and the top one is protected (it swings and recovers him).

3) Play all the good cheap mutate creatures on top of bottom creatures who can protect themselves by blinking or going back to hand or whatever.

[ilovesaprolings]

I'd like to mutate snapdax, apex of the hunt on something with high power to voltron.
The best one that i can think of is nova chaser... but the "champion an elemental" clause can be troublesome. Is there something better?