The Community Deck Build Project v9.0

[3drinks]

whoops, forgot to put @aliciaofthevast and @toctheyounger on the clock.

[Moxnix]

I think I look at the removal a different way I consider making them trade it out for 1 mana good making them waste swords to plowshares turn 1-2 is excellent. If they don't have it then great and even if they do if I'm playing creature flood I want them using their removal on my one drops not having it in hand for destroying my tempo when I play my 4-6 drop finisher card. It varies though in my paper group they have asinine amounts of removal like guys who have lists with 30+ cards like counter spell wrath of god and swords. On mtgo unless its tagged cedh most the players use almost none Durdle lose and rage normally with much better lines they missed. In fact they will quit and say my decks unfun if I even swords their creatures early in the game they will legit rage scoop to a single removal.

I played a game the other day and I played a path to exile and and a cathar commando and the guy rage quit and said "very unfun and try hard" those were the only 2 cards I played. However I find serra is good in BOTH my metas While it doesn't insta win games like on mtgo not that I need any help there pulling the cards that are best against aggro decks like removal out of players hands is generally very good. Maybe the disconnect is in paper outside of the guys with kahlia most the decks are more spell oriented so I'm eating all the removal anyway when I choose to play creature decks. So in that setting making them remove it turn 2 so they cant play a mana stone or draw engine that turn is actually amazing as not only a way of removing a good card from their hand but the tempo allows me to keep trying to land a threat before they have up mana drain or whatever. At the end of the day its a 1 drop I normally play 15 + 1 drops in any deck I make just for basic mana curve reasons.

I do see some people see it as a threat on mtgo but they cant do anything about it and in paper they would kill my lannowar elf turn one if they had the removal too and assume I have cradle and that its just as large a threat. Either way if I recommended a card I assume people know how to use them the main reason I like this card is that it costs 1 mana our deck only has 5 cards there atm I have never had a deck I've built feel optimized with low numbers of 0-1 drop cards as then your just saying ill wait until turn 2 to play magic and in a swingy format like edh where you can go last that's a nightmare. So I'm fine with things like Esper sentinel instead of serra but every time I've ever helped anyone fix a deck they almost always have too many 3+ cc cards. Even if the cards are better in their own right for mana curve reasons alone it will not flow properly. So I'm all for playing 1 drops that have more value later in a game as that's part of their appeal optimizing your mana on each turn. Granted after looking at the list again maybe its not good since we jammed tons of mana rocks I probably wouldn't do that in an aggressive deck I would want to be more threat dense. So I guess with the mana rocks in mind were more of a synergy combo deck than a true agressive deck.

[3drinks]

Can you, like, use the enter key to break that into paragraphs or something? That's really tough to digest.

[Moxnix]

I got you fam

[Dunharrow]

I don't know what to make of Savior. The fact it puts the bodies back on the battlefield (as opposed to Angel of Serenity) makes me not want to use this as removal, ever. Using it as a recursion engine tells me it's also a high priority target. Hmm, I think this is a nay. I'd love to be convinced otherwise though.

I see it more like a Fiend Hunter variant that can exile multiple creatures. Just think like on turn 5 or something you have Isshin out and a haste enabler and you want to swing so you drop savior, remove two potential blockers and hit hard.
Then the ability to potentially recur creatures at some point of the game is not terrible. Like if your opponent wants their exiled creature back but that brings Aurelia, the Warleader back then maybe it is not worth it?

[Moxnix]

I missed savoir I'm going to say nay double training doesn't seem bad but its not so exciting either.

[Dunharrow]

you all vote how you feel

i was surprised anguished unmaking got nayed, and people suggested removal attached to creatures.... but if that is getting nayed too then I think we have to better explain what kind of removal y'all want.

[aliciaofthevast]

Hmm, I think Savior of Ollenbock is reasonable. It's modal and I think you're paying a bit of a premium for it, but I am okay paying it. So I'll yay that.

I do think we need more instant speed responses, so I think I want to go with ....hmm, I want to say Abrade but I think Rakdos Charm is better. So let's nominate charm, I think that's the best value for the cost in this role!

[Moxnix]

Yay rakdos charm cheap instant removal and graveyard hate seems good to me.

[Dunharrow]

Rakdos Charm is a fun card, yay.

[3drinks]

Much easier to read, thank you for that.

I think I look at the removal a different way I consider making them trade it out for 1 mana good making them waste swords to plowshares turn 1-2 is excellent. If they don't have it then great and even if they do if I'm playing creature flood I want them using their removal on my one drops not having it in hand for destroying my tempo when I play my 4-6 drop finisher card. It varies though in my paper group they have asinine amounts of removal like guys who have lists with 30+ cards like counter spell wrath of god and swords. On mtgo unless its tagged cedh most the players use almost none Durdle lose and rage normally with much better lines they missed. In fact they will quit and say my decks unfun if I even swords their creatures early in the game they will legit rage scoop to a single removal.

I played a game the other day and I played a path to exile and and a cathar commando and the guy rage quit and said "very unfun and try hard" those were the only 2 cards I played. However I find serra is good in BOTH my metas While it doesn't insta win games like on mtgo not that I need any help there pulling the cards that are best against aggro decks like removal out of players hands is generally very good. Maybe the disconnect is in paper outside of the guys with kahlia most the decks are more spell oriented so I'm eating all the removal anyway when I choose to play creature decks. So in that setting making them remove it turn 2 so they cant play a mana stone or draw engine that turn is actually amazing as not only a way of removing a good card from their hand but the tempo allows me to keep trying to land a threat before they have up mana drain or whatever. At the end of the day its a 1 drop I normally play 15 + 1 drops in any deck I make just for basic mana curve reasons.

Sure, in the context of greedy players (or n00b players, I don't judge) that play too lean on removal, cards like this are good. To an extent. If Goblin Guide is the best one drop of all time, that doesn't mean guide is good on t7. Playing one drops because they're gonna eat removal, I think, doesn't really hold weight in a forty life format. Like, I think your main premise is "Serra is GOATed because removal exists" and I'm not sure this is a defensible synopsis. It's just a creature. It attacks and blocks. That's all. It clocks well, but less so in a forty life format, where this isn't going the distance. You're gonna hit for 12/120 life points and then eat a Sheoldred's Edict or similar? Or your main point is our one mv card traded with their one mv interaction, plow, fatal push, pongify or whatever? We're tempo neutral here, card neutral, debatably card negative because we're -1 with one player and the other two are +0.

There's a value to tempo, but I don't think this translates well to this format with enhanced life totals and an extra card in hand. I don't think the line "w: you become arch enemy" is a line of play most people want, evidenced by the resounding rejection this card got. There's also the social implications, what's that phrase "create games we want to remember, rather than ones we try to forget". I can't think of a single game where a t1 Serra came down and the table elicited "oh boy, t1 Serra, this will be a great game!" I think that's valid in the tabletop setting, though sure less valid within the anonymity of modo. I suppose this is also why my theorized eldrazi reanimator with Isshin doesn't actually have any legs in actuality. Idk, I'm still grappling with multiplayer build and play patterns; a trait it seems we share from what I've observed of your thought processes.

I do see some people see it as a threat on mtgo but they cant do anything about it and in paper they would kill my lannowar elf turn one if they had the removal too and assume I have cradle and that its just as large a threat. Either way if I recommended a card I assume people know how to use them the main reason I like this card is that it costs 1 mana our deck only has 5 cards there atm I have never had a deck I've built feel optimized with low numbers of 0-1 drop cards as then your just saying ill wait until turn 2 to play magic and in a swingy format like edh where you can go last that's a nightmare. So I'm fine with things like Esper sentinel instead of serra but every time I've ever helped anyone fix a deck they almost always have too many 3+ cc cards. Even if the cards are better in their own right for mana curve reasons alone it will not flow properly. So I'm all for playing 1 drops that have more value later in a game as that's part of their appeal optimizing your mana on each turn. Granted after looking at the list again maybe its not good since we jammed tons of mana rocks I probably wouldn't do that in an aggressive deck I would want to be more threat dense. So I guess with the mana rocks in mind were more of a synergy combo deck than a true agressive deck.

Sure, so I auto populate the ramp suite since no one wants to spend their picks on that. Eschewing ramp for more low-end business is a discussion we can have. I think the presumption is the players in this game typically don't go that direction because splashy six drops are splashy and fun, but that is a discussion we can have at the very least. I think that's reasonable.

[3drinks]

I'ma change my nay vote to a yay on Savior, perhaps I was harsh in my initial assessment. I'll also confirm rakdos charm, which I think most people would have gone that direction anyway.

On the clock today is myself and @gsgfdf to round out this cycle of picks. And I'm just gonna take something basic, simple, and efficient and throw Fatal Push into the mix.

Savior of Ollenbock yay - 2 nay - 1
Fatal Push yay - 0 nay - 0
Rakdos Charm yay - 3 nay - 0

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

[Dunharrow]

Push seems okay, but a bit mediocre? if we can trigger revolt reliably I would yay. But it's not like we are playing 9 fetches in this.
Maybe Cut Down or Vendetta do the trick?
Or even Bolt?

[Moxnix]

I mean my main premise is that If I'm going to eat a removal I would rather it be on a 1 mana card than a card that costs more. I think tempo is actually huge in this format whether its cedh and being on the play with mystic remora being way better when you play first or a more casual table where the guy who goes turn 1 sol ring on the play vs slow hands just smashes you its pretty huge. Not many 1 drop cards can put so much pressure that the player being hit feels they need to immediately answer the card. Not only has sucking a removal early game seen me win later when they don't have it anymore but my friends at least are perfectly fine letting me do their work for them if they are not the ones taking the 6 a turn. The archenemy and games you want to remember thing don't ship so much with me when everyone in the format plays sol ring and when your bashing with a 6/6 lifelink they either kill it and its not a threat or they have to outpace 6 LifeLink a turn I don't even see how I'm getting punished. Other people don't like it is likewise not anything tangible to me.

Yes I think paying 1 mana for 12 damage and life gain and making someone pop an early removal is really good. I think that's our major disconnect I see that as a wonderful trade. In a deck where removals are good against you its almost like a duress stapled to a 12-36 life point swing AND they have to waste mana often more than we did or ramps us a land with path etc. In most the aggro decks I've played having someone at say 24 life and not 36 is often incredibly relevant in finishing them off and gaining life is not so bad either and maybe now they don't have swords for our war leader on kill turn. Also when I saw I could not suggest 1cc tutors and thought about the curve its like how many other proactive powerful cards that make an impact do we even have access too. I like to have good turn 1 plays and I like have lots of 1 drops to efficiently use my mana on any given turn. So in my experience playing the card it only really needs 1 thing to be good and 2 to be great and the first as an aggressive shell that wants to win by swinging dude every turn as soon as possible with a high body count. Then it becomes great when your deck has lifegain support to not make it a dead draw later but even in those cases most those style decks run skullclamp. I understand having a shell it would take forever otherwise but it certainly makes some archetypes way better and some way weaker.

That being said I'm not sad it didn't make the cut here as the vision I had for a deck that uses it was more like t1 serra t2 dauthi t3 agro card with attack trigger t4 commander + 1 drop/ budget tapland t5-t6 game ending synergy aggro card. I think we went a different way and its that style of deck I think you want serra in. I liked the idea of running him this way as I don't feel like many commanders can pull this kind of build off where as generic ramp card into bombs can work with almost anything. I do think in some cases maybe before starting we could consider not jamming a bunch of mana stones as differing decks want Wildy different total mana source counts and in different ways. All things considered its not the best card in the world but calling something on the CEDH staples list trash seems like a suspect evaluation to me. While some of those cards are quite meta specific this is not one of them in my experience it just needs the right deck to shine.

[Dunharrow]

I mean I think we do want a low curve. I hate Serra Avatar and in my soul believe there are better options in that slot for this deck, but maybe not.
I think we want 5-6 1-drops in the deck so that hero of bladehold can actually win the game...
I just think I would rather 1 drops that generate card advantage or protect our bigger pieces, or enable hate...
I get the idea that aggro decks want serra avatar but we are a synergy deck, not an aggro deck.

I also don't get the idea of wanting this to be a lightning rod to eat a removal spell... like, can't Selfless Savior do a better job at protecting your late game bombs?

[Moxnix]

Its not that you want it to be a lightning rod its that paying 1 mana to drain life someone for 12 duress their removal and tempo their early game plays is quite a bit of value for 1 mana. I agree if we want to make this a more combo synergy deck and not aggro that's not as good but in a aggro deck I don't know how much more you can ask for a single mana. Its not even a low curve thing I've just never felt any deck I've ever made in this format has felt optimized running so few 0-1 drop cards. If we want esper sentinel and the card that trigger Tresure tokens on swing for theme path whatever that's fine but I feel like I want some 1cc cards.

[3drinks]

Push seems okay, but a bit mediocre? if we can trigger revolt reliably I would yay. But it's not like we are playing 9 fetches in this.
Maybe Cut Down or Vendetta do the trick?
Or even Bolt?

Cut Down is a good card, I've been pleasantly surprised by how often it hits. I'd be okay making that swap on the itinerary for sure. Card is so gas. I probably should have said Fateful Absence tbh, that card is really strong and versatile.

There's some fantastic discussion happening here and I love it. I'm gonna be a bit all over as I {attempt to} reply to many things.

Its not that you want it to be a lightning rod its that paying 1 mana to drain life someone for 12 duress their removal and tempo their early game plays is quite a bit of value for 1 mana.

I don't actually think this is a real line of play in an environment where the only life that matters is the last point. You're excited to trade one for one with a one drop vs efficient one drop removal, or exploiting bad players that don't play enough removal. The first is just a straight line play. The second is essentially, being happy at a card over performing because they don't have an optimal build or they didn't aggressively mull for a hard answer to a one drop creature that isn't templated properly to the format. Which to me, reads more like a deckbuilding crutch - an easy button you press that lacks synergy with the game plan but you play it "because sometimes people don't have a check". I think that's bad form and makes your play and brew ability deteriorate over time. And that's assuming you see it in the optimal conditions, and it's not just a 1/1 lifelink ready to be fed to Chrome Mox or whatever.

I also don't get the idea of wanting this to be a lightning rod to eat a removal spell... like, can't Selfless Savior do a better job at protecting your late game bombs?

I prefer Coalition Honor Guard for this, but I'm allegedly a hipster that remembers the obnoxiousness of the flagbearer mechanic. Like a Spellskite before Spellskite was a thing. >_> But the point is a valid one.

I mean I think we do want a low curve. I hate Serra {sic} Ascendant and in my soul believe there are better options in that slot for this deck, but maybe not.
I think we want 5-6 1-drops in the deck so that hero of bladehold can actually win the game...

So in my experience playing the card it only really needs 1 thing to be good and 2 to be great and the first as an aggressive shell that wants to win by swinging dude every turn as soon as possible with a high body count.

I agree we want a curve. I also believe we want consistency. How deep are we going down this rabbit hole? Is Monastery Swiftspear on the docket? Chain that into War-Name Aspirant/Robber of the Rich on 2 and a Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin on 3? That's an aggressive curve. What about Zurgo Bellstriker < Loyal Apprentice < Adeline, Resplendent Cathar? These lines even have terrific capstones at t4 with Hero of Bladehold/Hellrider/Fervent Charge.

But the answer is no, right? Because {most of} these aren't iMPACTful enough as you Scale Up games with life totals and resources available. But maybe the answer is they are good, if we're playing threats and getting the clock going, rather than Time Walking ourselves with mana stones in our 3mc commander deck. I bet that's a very viable route to explore and I'd be happy to do so!

The archenemy and games you want to remember thing don't ship so much with me when everyone in the format plays sol ring and when your bashing with a 6/6 lifelink they either kill it and its not a threat or they have to outpace 6 LifeLink a turn I don't even see how I'm getting punished. Other people don't like it is likewise not anything tangible to me.

We're not building to cDH here, and while yes I do identify with these ideals so, so much (I recently was asked to not play my Ragavan deck because I'm rocking tabernacle, uba mask, workshop and similar) and thus I'm attempting to understand how to read the room. It's a slow process, but I think a reasonable one to make. We have to be cognizant of the games the table is looking for in the name of compatibility. Otherwise you don't get invited back and what is the deck doing for you at that point? I guess, as the mtg goldfish crew would put it, "try not to get too sweaty with your deck choices".

All things considered its not the best card in the world but calling something on the CEDH staples list trash seems like a suspect evaluation to me.

I don't put stock in the idea of a generic "staples list". Not even sol ring, there are decks that don't want these colourless mana rockets (for example, a deck such as Kami of the Crescent Moon or Torbran, Thane of Red Fell with a high pip::colourless req ratio. They're not common, but they exist and should be respected). And subscribing to such a theory comes back around to dulled senses hypothesis where you become more rigid and put yourself on autopilot.

Then it becomes great when your deck has lifegain support to not make it a dead draw later but even in those cases most those style decks run skullclamp.

Right. If we're on Chalice of Life // Chalice of Death, Sun Droplet, even Well of Lost Dreams, then Serra is more than just a single dork that can attack/block. I don't see any of that here. We wouldn't play Lightning Skelemental, right? That's something that hits hard for low mana input, and even puts pressure on cards in hands. But no one is clamouring to play this.

[toctheyounger]

Man, I missed a good couple days there. Did I miss a nomination?

[Dunharrow]

Its not that you want it to be a lightning rod its that paying 1 mana to drain life someone for 12 duress their removal and tempo their early game plays is quite a bit of value for 1 mana. I agree if we want to make this a more combo synergy deck and not aggro that's not as good but in a aggro deck I don't know how much more you can ask for a single mana. Its not even a low curve thing I've just never felt any deck I've ever made in this format has felt optimized running so few 0-1 drop cards. If we want esper sentinel and the card that trigger Tresure tokens on swing for theme path whatever that's fine but I feel like I want some 1cc cards.

Hitting for 12 (when your opponents have a total of 120 life) and eating a removal spell (1 for 1 is not great in multiplayer). It is really overhyped to me. It is fine in 1v1 but in multiplayer I really don't see the point.

@3drinks
When I think about 1-drops we ought to play I am not thinking about Isamaru, Hound of Konda and Monastery Swiftspear. I am thinking of Bloodlust Inciter and Mom. We don't need to curve out because we are aggro. We need to curve out because we have some really strong creatures that need to be protected or granted haste. That's my opinion anyway. I don't see why our first turn should be wasted.

[3drinks]

So I'd be correct in assessing that this isn't a ramp deck and we could cut the rocks out to free up slots to have a better curve of dudes? @Dunharrow

mom, step mom, and creepy uncle bad touch? Maybe some Dwarven Miner/blastminer as a two drop that plays to the board without committing cards from hand? Inciter and it's functional reprint.

[toctheyounger]

I'd suggest Hope of Ghirapur is worth it in the one slot too. But yeah the family package is pretty worth it I'd say.

[3drinks]

Is Hope of Ghirapur really worth? Let's sound it out.

You attack, get through, sac so you...can force through a combo without one person interacting? What are we aiming for with Hope of Ghirapur? I do appreciate me some Xantid Swarm effects, but what in the list is this enabling?

[3drinks]

I don't know what to make of Savior. The fact it puts the bodies back on the battlefield (as opposed to Angel of Serenity) makes me not want to use this as removal, ever. Using it as a recursion engine tells me it's also a high priority target. Hmm, I think this is a nay. I'd love to be convinced otherwise though.

Urborg Scavengers yay - 3 nay - 1
Serra Ascendant yay - 0 nay - 3
Savior of Ollenbock yay - 0 nay - 1

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5JGLDfA7OEy0ZaPb3Nw9QQ

whoops, forgot to put @aliciaofthevast and @toctheyounger on the clock.

Man, I missed a good couple days there. Did I miss a nomination?

You did. Good thing it's the weekend and there's plenty time to finesse some picks and discussion.

[gsgfdf]

Sorry for the late reply, life got in the way. I will reply on removal and Serra tomorrow.

Yay on Savior.
Nay on Hope, I don't see why we want this. What are we doing on second main that needs protecting?

For my nomination I would like to suggest Aerial Extortionist. Unsummon on etb and attack is powerful. The second line of text is CA that synergises with our commander and works even without him.

[3drinks]

If that said attacks, you'd have lured me in with that five mv bird. On damage I am less thrilled. I think I gotta nay that. But let's have a conversation about it anyway.