Though that would not always be the case (Spoiler 12), when it is the case, it could be a good thing (Spoiler 13), not a bad thing. There are plenty of broken decks in Commander making the lives of many players miserable. Those decks need to be put in their place and Wishes just might be able to do that.
It is possible that a Wish or two would become banned. But there's no way to know without revising Rule 13 because Wishes have always been de facto banned (Spoiler 4).
That's the nature of the game. Not really an argument for or against any card.
There's nothing stopping players from banning Wishes in their playgroup via houserule either. In fact, it's more reasonable to do so than to de facto ban Wishes. (Spoiler 3)
Same here.
Trolls don't need Wishes to ruin the fun for everyone. There's already plenty of tools in Commander for trolls to work with. Should those cards be banned / de facto banned? Of course not, because the trolls would just use the next tier of grief inducing cards. "Bad people do bad things in Magic." is not an argument against Wishes in Commander any more than it is an argument against any other effect in Commander.
That is correct. There is no difference between going infinite with Time Vault and going infinite with any other card in Commander. Let Rule 0 handle it.tarotplz wrote: ↑4 years agoAt that point we might aswell unban Time Vault since not everyone is going to combo out with it, right?
This is a false equivalency. Effects that bypass the stack to put a select card onto the battlefield from another zone are completely different from effects that put a card from outside the game (or from a library) into hand from where they must still be cast.
I'm not trying to convince anyone that they aren't potentially powerful. I am trying to convince everyone that they should not be de facto banned by Rule 13. And that they should be given a chance to function correctly in Commander, even if that means some of them get banned as a result.
Would you please PM me quotes in which I've shamed anyone so that I can publicly apologize to them?
No. Because even highly intelligent persons tend to accept what has always been, justify it, and defend it, even after it's been proven wrong. Things like cognitive dissonance, honor, spite, loyalty, and jealousy are powerful internal influencers. That being said, though I am certain that no card should be de facto banned, I'm not certain that my arguments are infallible, which is why I dropped them into the crucible of MTGNexus.
Cheaters don't need Wishes to cheat. There's nothing stopping anyone from putting more than one copy of a given card their deck.
Where is the evidence for this very popular hypothesis? Is this what happens in formats in which Wishes are legal? Has it ever happened?
I didn't claim they're worthless. I proved it. Seriously, if any of my points are erroneous, then someone please prove it. I welcome the challenge. Continuously rephrasing arguments that have already been debunked or negated does not somehow legitimize them. Rhetoric, while entertaining and even therapeutic, does not constitute a real argument.
Wishes absolutely should only be banned by Rule 0 interaction prior to a game starting. (Spoiler 3)
You say that like it's a bad thing. Show me the person that doesn't want people to agree with them. I mean, that's why I started the thread in the first place.
This thread is 100% not about the ban list. It's about Rule 13.
I'm not trying to trap the RC+CAD in a logic trap.
I'm trying to extricate the Wishes from an illogical trap.
How convenient that every time someone addresses this subject rhetorically, they're shut down for not being logical enough and when someone addresses this subject logically, they're shut down for not being rhetorical enough.
Limited deck size is a general rule of Commander without which the format has no identity. It's also a rule that applies to all cards equally. It's just that other cards don't care if there's more than 100 cards in a deck. Battle of Wits isn't subject to a special rule that was created to invalidate it. Wishes are. Commander doesn't have to be changed in order for Wishes to work in it.tstorm823 wrote: ↑4 years agoWhile comparing to most cards that do nothing isn't right, I believe there is a worthwhile comparison in Battle of Wits. Why does BoW work in other formats but not commander? Because commander has a format restriction that other formats dont: a fixed deck size.
Agreed that it can, but I wouldn't agree that it should not - not when there is a better way. Commander used to have a "banned as Commander" rule that was done away with. There was a "can't add colors of mana outside of Commander's color identity" that was done away with. Magic used to have "mana burn" that was done away with. There was a rule that if an untapped blocked or blocking creature became tapped before damage, the tapped creature would not deal combat damage, it was done away with. Etc.
Rule 13 is superfluous. It's inelegant. It's confusing. It's frustrating. And it needs to be done away with.