Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

I agree, I have been actually discarding mass reanimate more than casting it lately. I seem to find combos our out-value the table much more frequently then I Mass-reanimate to win. I think you always want to have at least one that you can loop with though. I might drop zombie apocalypse for dread return, and have been considering for a long time, but I think my love of the card is clouding my judgement lol.

Living Death is where it's at for me. Functioning as both a board wipe as well as being non-conditional reanimation makes it top of the pile.

A board wipe that ignores indestructible! There are times when nothing else will do!

Still, there are times when Living Death benefits one or more opponents as much or more as oneself, which is not the case with Zombie Apocalypse, which never helps anyone but the caster. Even the destroy-all-humans bit is occasionally quite beneficial.

[pokken]

yeh, Living Death is a board wipe in my head. but it definitely emphasizes having enough sac outlets to reliably make it more asymmetrical for you.

[plaganegra]

I got to play last Friday and zombies had a really great showing winning me the only match I played with the deck.

The game was fairly slow with the table keeping everything in check. I bounced a couple active hate cards - one was a deathrite shaman and the other was a poison tip archer. My gravecrawler had already been exiled, but I was able to combo off with haakon and the colorless changeling and ashnod's altar. It was pretty cool since I have never had to do that specific combo to win a game before. The two bounce spells I used were cyclonic rift and Chain of Vapor. When I bounced with Chain, the opponent bounced my corpse knight but I was able to recast everything because of a powered crypt of agadeem and a game full of milling myself.

The amount of resiliency that can be built into a zombie deck was surprising to everyone that game. Nobody saw the haakon changeling backup combo coming.

[pokken]

haakon and the colorless changeling and ashnod's altar.

In a lot of ways Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Ashnod's Altar combos are good enough to be option 1, partially because Ashnod's Altar is so frigging efficient mana-wise. You can fuel some really huge turns with it. Being able to cast Ashnod's Altar for 3, then cast intuition for U then Haakon, Stromgald Scourge for BB then Corpse Knight for BW and Universal Automaton for nothing and then generate infinite colorless for making more varina zombies if you need to for some reason. It makes a combo turn only cost

3UWBBB which is very cheap, if you start with 2 bodies.

Plus, never forget Varina, Lich Queen Skullclamp Ashnod's Altar -- I always frigging forget that combo. it's so easy to assemble and surprises the heck out of people. It beats a lot of graveyard hate too (just have cards in your bin 2 = 1 card).

[Rframpt]

(I am thinking about cutting Tombstone Stairwell well for it myself, since that card has required too much setup and telegraphing for me lately)

I keep Stairwell only because it is so much fun when it does work; it's almost certainly too unreliable to be included on merit. I sold both copies of Invasion of Arcavios that I pulled in the pre-release, so I guess I'm not testing that.

Still one of my absolute favorite ways to win a game of commander, last time I dropped it I won before it got back to me lol. I think the card has merit even without an aristocrat as long as you can take advantage of the attack triggers on your turn. So many bodies to sac as well.

Oh, I saw someone asking if Altar of Dementia is worth running a while ago when I just read the pages I missed... Yes. Yes it is.

Is Chain of Vapor that good? Can't wrap my head around it been that much better than an Unsummon?

It hits rest in peace etc. it also lets you protect your altars. It's insanely versatile. I even won a game double garying with it once.

Probably the most common thing way I've used it is as a combo protector (bounce your altar when they try to kill it) but I've used it to bounce all kinds of stuff so I can win.

Chain of Vapor is a card I added to my deck on Pokken's advice a while back and I don't think it will ever come out. It is cheap and insanely versatile. I cannot say enough good things about it.

So I have been looking at Poxwalkers and I have been thinking maybe I should cut it from my list. I am wondering if any of you have had some positive experience with it, and some suggestions as to have interesting cards to cast to trigger poxwalkers return to the battlefield

Hey there, the list in my signature is full of things that support Poxwalkers and all of their friends! Happy to help if you need. This has been my main zombie focus for a long time.

I do think dread return is probably underplayed. Discardable and huge tempo. Should likely come before other reanimates I think

I agree, I have been actually discarding mass reanimate more than casting it lately. I seem to find combos our out-value the table much more frequently then I Mass-reanimate to win. I think you always want to have at least one that you can loop with though. I might drop zombie apocalypse for dread return, and have been considering for a long time, but I think my love of the card is clouding my judgement lol.

Thanks plaganegra! I really appreciate it, as I also want to add Poxwalkers to my more midrange reanimator version of Varina. Same goes for Prized Amalgam, but I also enjoy having more higher cmc zombie and other reanimation targets in the deck. Tormod, the Desecrator is a house and the thought of getting more triggers of him is very exciting.

[Ardeyn]

Back after some time of reconfiguring the deck. I'm off the Second Sunrise plan and a lot closer to what your lists are doing - it feels a lot more organic.
I still lean a bit more midrange with some discard synergies such as Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir and reanimation, though.
In this regard I was wondering if anyone has tried Rot Hulk in their list? I saw @pokken mention it in a post buried somewhere in this thread. It seems like a good albeit expensive value piece that would go infinite with Necroduality and a free sac outlet.

Ardeyn

[pokken]

Back after some time of reconfiguring the deck. I'm off the Second Sunrise plan and a lot closer to what your lists are doing - it feels a lot more organic.
I still lean a bit more midrange with some discard synergies such as Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir and reanimation, though.
In this regard I was wondering if anyone has tried Rot Hulk in their list? I saw @pokken mention it in a post buried somewhere in this thread. It seems like a good albeit expensive value piece that would go infinite with Necroduality and a free sac outlet.

Ardeyn

I try not to run anything dependent on enchantments for combos because they don't come back with mass reanimations and can't get turn sideways, but I guess the same issues apply to altars. The thing I like about altars is they recover with sevinnes and they also create explosive mana to win.

Regarding rot hulk I think it is a powerful effect that has a large likelihood of being superior to zombie apocalypse in my deck because of its synergy with dread return. The ability to intuition for dread return rot hulk and either gravecrawler or gray merchant is really powerful midrange option.

I just can't bring myself to pay $20 for the stupid thing to try it out.

In general I think we should prefer zombies over non zombies.

[Rframpt]

Back after some time of reconfiguring the deck. I'm off the Second Sunrise plan and a lot closer to what your lists are doing - it feels a lot more organic.
I still lean a bit more midrange with some discard synergies such as Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir and reanimation, though.
In this regard I was wondering if anyone has tried Rot Hulk in their list? I saw @pokken mention it in a post buried somewhere in this thread. It seems like a good albeit expensive value piece that would go infinite with Necroduality and a free sac outlet.

Ardeyn

I try not to run anything dependent on enchantments for combos because they don't come back with mass reanimations and can't get turn sideways, but I guess the same issues apply to altars. The thing I like about altars is they recover with sevinnes and they also create explosive mana to win.

Regarding rot hulk I think it is a powerful effect that has a large likelihood of being superior to zombie apocalypse in my deck because of its synergy with dread return. The ability to intuition for dread return rot hulk and either gravecrawler or gray merchant is really powerful midrange option.

I just can't bring myself to pay $20 for the stupid thing to try it out.

In general I think we should prefer zombies over non zombies.

It is certainly a card I have on my radar for my Varina deck. As I have one card in the deck that is a non-Zombie that of Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite to reanimate Rot Hulk would definitely be the card to replace her with. Though I am also in the boat of 16-20 euros is too much for what that card does.

[devilcatz]

Archfiend of Ifnir and Wonder are the only non-zombies that I have.
The former kills everything else on board and is pure power!
The fact that I can discard first before attacking passes through is bliss.

The latter takes me up the sky all the time upon discarding it.

[Falkenbach]

I run Rot Hulk in my list and I would absolutly recommand him. He synergizes really well in my list with some single target reanimation i am running. Him Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born are my more high costed zombies who might not be optimal but i find choosing them over some low 1 drops gives me more fun in the game

[RedCheese]

I would love to get a Rot Hulk, but 30 dollars is a bit too much

[pzbw7z]

Seven mana for a mini? non-mass? limited? -reanimation spell doesn't appeal to me. Granted, one won't always have more than three cards in the graveyard, but I still don't see the point of a card with the ceiling so much lower than the lower MV reanimation spells we typically run. I guess {card]Cavern of Souls[/card] is a point in favor of a tribal creature, but that's not reliable enough to sway my thinking at all. Rot Hulk might not suck as badly as those spells do when the 'yard is empty, but it's still pretty bad in that situation.

Zombie Apocalypse just seems a much better card most of the time. It also appeals to me based on flavor but that's obviously 100% subjective.

My deck wins with Corpse Knight and/or Wayward Servant nearly every time it does win. That's most often through combo but sometimes through mass reanimation. Plague Belcher sometimes does the business but it's usually those first two. The point is MV matters. In a different style deck, fatties could matter - I get that 100%. I just don't think Zombies do the fatty thing that well and it's just not my style.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, if Rot Hulk were cheaper I'd totally give it a punt. It needs a reprint before I test it out.

In a way, I don't think CMC is going to matter with it. It's almost always going to loot out of my hand into the yard and be reanimated, but then I'm in the spot of using mass reanimation to grab it anyway. I think if you're in for Reanimate or Dread Return it's a good option.

I do wonder if it's possible to use it like a creature version of Underworld Breach of sorts though. I'm trying to think of a pile of 3 you could grab that would loop through reanimating it over and over and just bleeding the table out. Something like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Phyrexian Delver and Skull Skaab or Mindleech Ghoul probably loops just fine, you might just like to trade out Delver for something that won't bleed you out too on the ETB. You'd need a sac outlet in play anyway, so maybe the exploit creatures aren't necessary and you could just up the devotion with Relentless Dead or similar.

edit - I totally typed Gary instead of Gray for the card tag, and it came up with the referenced card correctly. Someone in the background is doing these tags right.

[Falkenbach]

I am just wondering if you sac him with his etb trigger on the stack if u can return himself and loop (pretty sure u cant) but with Necroduality he loops

[pokken]

I am just wondering if you sac him with his etb trigger on the stack if u can return himself and loop (pretty sure u cant) but with Necroduality he loops

You can't, but he works with Body Double and Phyrexian Delver pretty well.

Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Phyrexian Delver + Rot Hulk will go infinite with any altar / sac outlet as well so it's kinda nice to have an option that doesn't cost mana and works with zombie sac outlets (similar to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Putrid Goblin).

Cast Rot hulk, ETB targets Phyrexian Delver + Gray Merchant of Asphodel
while trigger is on the sac, sacrifice Rot Hulk with anything
delver and merchant return, draining >7
delver targets rot hulk
sac delver and merchant to anything
rot hulk returns (repeat)

Loop also works with Dread Return and Repository Skaab if you have Phyrexian Altar.

[toctheyounger]

I am just wondering if you sac him with his etb trigger on the stack if u can return himself and loop (pretty sure u cant) but with Necroduality he loops

You can't, but he works with Body Double and Phyrexian Delver pretty well.

Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Phyrexian Delver + Rot Hulk will go infinite with any altar / sac outlet as well so it's kinda nice to have an option that doesn't cost mana and works with zombie sac outlets (similar to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Putrid Goblin).

Cast Rot hulk, ETB targets Phyrexian Delver + Gray Merchant of Asphodel
while trigger is on the sac, sacrifice Rot Hulk with anything
delver and merchant return, draining >7
delver targets rot hulk
sac delver and merchant to anything
rot hulk returns (repeat)

Loop also works with Dread Return and Repository Skaab if you have Phyrexian Altar.

That is a nice tribal loop, and Buried Alive pretty much gets you there too. I remember yeti talking about it pulling some good weight. I think I'd probably look at it at some point, I just don't want to pay for it lol

Problem is it isn't the sort of card were likely to see printed en masse. Best I can see is like a jumpstart theme deck reprint.

[Ardeyn]

You can't, but he works with Body Double and Phyrexian Delver pretty well.

Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Phyrexian Delver + Rot Hulk will go infinite with any altar / sac outlet as well so it's kinda nice to have an option that doesn't cost mana and works with zombie sac outlets (similar to Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Putrid Goblin).

Cast Rot hulk, ETB targets Phyrexian Delver + Gray Merchant of Asphodel
while trigger is on the sac, sacrifice Rot Hulk with anything
delver and merchant return, draining >7
delver targets rot hulk
sac delver and merchant to anything
rot hulk returns (repeat)

Loop also works with Dread Return and Repository Skaab if you have Phyrexian Altar.

Since Body Double isn't a Zombie it won't work with Rot Hulk.
Also, unless I'm mistaken the Loop with Repository Skaab will only work with a cheaper reanimation spell, since you have to sacrifice one of the returned creatures for the exploit ability.

Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought a Hulk as I found a good deal. And I love playing cards noone seems to know even exist. 😉
I put it in place of Zombie Apocalypse and will test it during our upcoming Magic weekend.

Some more cards I stumbled across, that seem worthwhile:
Has anyone tested Black Market Connections and/or Sedraxis Alchemist?

Ardeyn

[pokken]

Since Body Double isn't a Zombie it won't work with Rot Hulk.
Also, unless I'm mistaken the Loop with Repository Skaab will only work with a cheaper reanimation spell, since you have to sacrifice one of the returned creatures for the exploit ability.

re: body double - Yeah you're right! womp.

re: Repository Skaab correct, it would only work N = free black mana times I guess? (Should be enough to get the job done, but not quite infinite). If that card is Lazotep Reaver it works tho

On the upside, if you have any other creatures, each one becomes another iteration (and likely shortens the clock by having pips).

[toctheyounger]

Has anyone tested Black Market Connections and/or Sedraxis Alchemist?

The alchemist seems neat. Good way to play to our strengths and not deck ourselves with Kindred Discovery, or just control the board. I could see that getting some corner case use.

I'm personally not a fan of BMC. I think the price is ludicrous, the life total pay is quite rough, and it's not any quicker than Phyrexian Arena. Sure, it does more, but it doesn't do enough of any one thing to really be worth it to me. YMMV, but that's my take on it.

[yeti1069]

Has anyone tested Black Market Connections and/or Sedraxis Alchemist?

The alchemist seems neat. Good way to play to our strengths and not deck ourselves with Kindred Discovery, or just control the board. I could see that getting some corner case use.

I'm personally not a fan of BMC. I think the price is ludicrous, the life total pay is quite rough, and it's not any quicker than Phyrexian Arena. Sure, it does more, but it doesn't do enough of any one thing to really be worth it to me. YMMV, but that's my take on it.

Have you played with BMC?

[toctheyounger]

Has anyone tested Black Market Connections and/or Sedraxis Alchemist?

The alchemist seems neat. Good way to play to our strengths and not deck ourselves with Kindred Discovery, or just control the board. I could see that getting some corner case use.

I'm personally not a fan of BMC. I think the price is ludicrous, the life total pay is quite rough, and it's not any quicker than Phyrexian Arena. Sure, it does more, but it doesn't do enough of any one thing to really be worth it to me. YMMV, but that's my take on it.

Have you played with BMC?

I'll be honest, I have not. I am skeptical as to how good it could really be, and part of that is definitely not wanting to spring for a copy. But my suspicion is that is probably isn't worth the money you pay for it.

[pokken]

Bmc has a horrible sequence with Varina where the changing comes out unhasted when you drop Varina. I wouldn't play it unless you're trying to slow roll a more controlling midrange approach.

If you're on aggro combo it's a bad card.

[yeti1069]

The alchemist seems neat. Good way to play to our strengths and not deck ourselves with Kindred Discovery, or just control the board. I could see that getting some corner case use.

I'm personally not a fan of BMC. I think the price is ludicrous, the life total pay is quite rough, and it's not any quicker than Phyrexian Arena. Sure, it does more, but it doesn't do enough of any one thing to really be worth it to me. YMMV, but that's my take on it.

Have you played with BMC?

I'll be honest, I have not. I am skeptical as to how good it could really be, and part of that is definitely not wanting to spring for a copy. But my suspicion is that is probably isn't worth the money you pay for it.

I don't think it's the right card here, but in a slower deck it's fantastic. Just the ramp feels almost worth it, but a card besides is very relevant. If you can make good use of the changeling as well, the card does a lot. If Varina were one turn slower I would 100% run it here.

[pokken]

Thought experiment:

My Varina deck is mostly outpowering my meta because the combos are so efficient. I started going to a new store and they just don't pack enough interaction to stop it. Getting bogged once is not usually enough to stop me.

I was debating retooling Varina to make her a trap deck--just not caring even at all about graveyard hate, just drawing cards off attacking with zombies. Stuff like Alhammarret's Archive, Teferi's Ageless Insight, Coastal Piracy Bident of Thassa etc etc. Using the bin only to make zombies with Varina, so Training Grounds and Heartstone maybe.

What I'm not sure about here is what kind of zombies to play; stuff that makes bodies like Lazotep Chancellor and Lazotep Reaver seem great. Necroduality might even be OK, and Headless Rider / Undead Augur effects are pretty strong. Skullclamp is still really good.

I could play Gravecrawler as random synergy I guess, but more because it's a 1 drop. No cards like Poxwalkers or Prized Amalgam because they're graveyard dependent, I don't think?

Ideally though we'd just be able to play through even a Leyline of the Void, but I'm not sure how to get the balance of creatures right for that.

We could add anti-wipe stuff like Flawless Maneuver and of course Cosmic Intervention is still great (since it beats RIP even).

Field of the Dead is pretty solid in this strategy, so could go much heavier on that and some of the white come from behind ramp to help trigger it.

Might be able to play a bunch of sweepers? Maybe such a build is an Hour of Revelation / Devastating Mastery / Farewell type deck, that is fine to blast the board before setting up Zombie piracy?

Anyone done any serious thinking on this front?

[yeti1069]

If you're ditching all the graveyard synergies (keep in mind Leyline and RiP turn off death triggers, too), what are you benefiting from with Varina ajd zombies? I feel like Raffine plays in a similar vein (turn attacking bodies into looting) while presenting more value on the field.