Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

I really should put my enlightened tutor back in now that I cut it from another deck good call.

That turn one tutor for land tax or skullclamp fixes a lot of stuff.

[toctheyounger]

I really should put my enlightened tutor back in now that I cut it from another deck good call.

That turn one tutor for land tax or skullclamp fixes a lot of stuff.

It really does. Makes mass reanimate lines a damn sight easier too.

[pzbw7z]

Budget considerations aside, I think Enlightened Tutor is inferior to Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal and those latter two should be run before ET. Of course, budget considerations are entirely valid.

It's a much closer thing with the higher-MV tutors, but I'd still probably slot Demonic Tutor in before E.T. or Mystical Tutor. That latter is also very much worth considering.

If one really wants to go hard, all of the cards mentioned here are very much in order plus a few more, possibly Diabolic Intent, and maybe Grim Tutor. Wishclaw Talisman is very much a possibility, but it should be used only to trigger a win-con.

Entomb and Buried Alive are also cards that we should run if we are going for a try-hard level or better.

With budget in mind, I really like Beseech the Queen; I don't think I've ever paid more than the three B and I don't think the number-of-lands limit has ever been an issue for me. Diabolic Tutor is probably good enough for a budget build but Dark Petition just didn't seem to cut it in my build.

All that said, I'm not going anywhere near that hard with my build but I would like to add Diabolic Intent, I think. It is not really great in my Prosper where I have one - only sixteen creatures, and it should be much better in my Varina where I sometimes benefit from sacrificing creatures.

[Reya]

I understand the enthusiasm for Invasion of Arcavios but do you really think we want to spend 5 mana for 1 tutor that telegraphes your next play and forces you to attack ? (so you need a board presence too) ?

It's more a corner case win or a win more in my opinion.

[pokken]

I understand the enthusiasm for Invasion of Arcavios but do you really think we want to spend 5 mana for 1 tutor that telegraphes your next play and forces you to attack ? (so you need a board presence too) ?

It's more a corner case win or a win more in my opinion.

Ain't nobody forcing me to attack, it's already the combat step and my stuff is turning sideways

I think "winmore" is a very poor assessment of the card; there are not that many cards that instantly win for 10 mana and being able to crack someone for 7.

The things to take issue with are 1) cost, 2) feasibility of pushing 7 damage, and I think all of those are reasonable concerns.

[pzbw7z]

I understand the enthusiasm for Invasion of Arcavios but do you really think we want to spend 5 mana for 1 tutor that telegraphes your next play and forces you to attack ? (so you need a board presence too) ?

It's more a corner case win or a win more in my opinion.

Ain't nobody forcing me to attack, it's already the combat step and my stuff is turning sideways

I think "winmore" is a very poor assessment of the card; there are not that many cards that instantly win for 10 mana and being able to crack someone for 7.

The things to take issue with are 1) cost, 2) feasibility of pushing 7 damage, and I think all of those are reasonable concerns.

Two copies of Invasion of Arcavios fell into my lap in the recent pre-release, so I might just give it a whirl despite my misgivings.

[toctheyounger]

Budget considerations aside, I think Enlightened Tutor is inferior to Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal and those latter two should be run before ET. Of course, budget considerations are entirely valid.

It's a much closer thing with the higher-MV tutors, but I'd still probably slot Demonic Tutor in before E.T. or Mystical Tutor. That latter is also very much worth considering.

If one really wants to go hard, all of the cards mentioned here are very much in order plus a few more, possibly Diabolic Intent, and maybe Grim Tutor. Wishclaw Talisman is very much a possibility, but it should be used only to trigger a win-con.

Entomb and Buried Alive are also cards that we should run if we are going for a try-hard level or better.

With budget in mind, I really like Beseech the Queen; I don't think I've ever paid more than the three B and I don't think the number-of-lands limit has ever been an issue for me. Diabolic Tutor is probably good enough for a budget build but Dark Petition just didn't seem to cut it in my build.

All that said, I'm not going anywhere near that hard with my build but I would like to add Diabolic Intent, I think. It is not really great in my Prosper where I have one - only sixteen creatures, and it should be much better in my Varina where I sometimes benefit from sacrificing creatures.

I generally agree. My budget definitely doesn't stretch to Imp Seal, nor Demonic. That said I can see the price for Imp dropping; I think now that they've bit the bullet and reprinted it we're likely to see more of it, and it's price is mostly due to historical scarcity more than power. It is good, but not deserving of the current price. Demonic, too, hasn't seen print in a while, who knows? That one will drop a little then pick up again. It's every bit as good as it's price dictates.

All that said I don't really wanna flood this deck with tutors, I think that belittles what it can do. I think there's a middle ground where the tutors we run give it a helping hand, and the deck just glides along on a steady stream of zombie farm draw. I'm pretty happy with the ones I have, I don't necessarily think I'd add more. I like the instant speed versatility of the ones I've got packed in, I'm not even sure Mystical Tutor belongs.

I can definitely recommend Diabolic Intent here; if it ain't working for Prosper, get it in here, or pick another one up. There's literally no downside for us virtually ever, and sometimes the sacrifice gets you further ahead. It's basically Demonic for this deck.

I understand the enthusiasm for Invasion of Arcavios but do you really think we want to spend 5 mana for 1 tutor that telegraphes your next play and forces you to attack ? (so you need a board presence too) ?

It's more a corner case win or a win more in my opinion.

I don't think it belongs in my version, but I can see where it would fit. It's notable that Invasion of Arcavios picks up instants and sorceries from your graveyard. It's literally the first tutor to do precisely that. I've heard of some stupid infinite combo lines with Displacer Kitten (hey, we finally broke it guys!) and 2 ritual spells, but I think if you include it in Varina you've gotta really wanna build around it, make your lines work and streamline around it.

As far as battles go, we don't really know for sure how they're gonna shake out long term. I'm pretty confident we can flip them reliably; we swing naturally anyway, and I'm usually pretty judicious as to how, so we can apply that same judiciousness to who protects the battle too. We've got a variety of combat evasion and buffs about, so it's not inconceivable that it flips. There are easier ones to flip for sure, but it could work. Again, though, if you're running it I think you're reworking the build to maximise it.

Ain't nobody forcing me to attack, it's already the combat step and my stuff is turning sideways

I think "winmore" is a very poor assessment of the card; there are not that many cards that instantly win for 10 mana and being able to crack someone for 7.

The things to take issue with are 1) cost, 2) feasibility of pushing 7 damage, and I think all of those are reasonable concerns.

I'm sort of here. In my iteration of the build, it's not even a close consideration. I think there is a world where it does enough though, and it's interesting to consider. I think it'll definitely see play, maybe even prominently in Esper colors. It probably fits nicest into something like Aminatou, the Fateshifter, but it's possible it could be made to work here.

[pokken]

Just so we're all clear, varina and 2 zombie tokens is 8 power, so Invasion off the top can win the game from an empty board in 2 turns. Varina, make 2 zombies, untap, play, invasion, swing, win.

The win line is:
invasion for Demonic Tutor (5)
swing, crack
Demonic Tutor for Phyrexian Altar and Intuition (7)
cast Phyrexian Altar (10)
sac board to cast Intuition for Gravecrawler Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Corpse Knight (10)
cast Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (13)
cast Corpse Knight (15)
cast Gravecrawler by sacrificing Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (15)

So that line costs 15 mana, which is a buttload. But it gets cheaper for every creature > 3 you have, and you have the option of casting invasion and passing as well in a slower game.

Other lines I'm seeing - if you play Songs of the Damned Dark Ritual, the doubling can go quite off the rails

Demonic Tutor for Dark Ritual and Intuition (7 sp)
cast Dark Ritual for B to make 6xB, floating BBBBBBUW (10)
cast Intuition *twice*, leaving BBBBW;
-- Sevinne's Reclamation Gravecrawler Phyrexian Altar
-- Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Corpse Knight, whatever
cast Sevinne's Reclamation, targetinng Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and Phyrexian Altar, emptying mana pool
sacrifice 3 creatures to cast Gravecrawler and Corpse Knight and GG.

[Reya]

But you need a good board presence and an opponent that does not block your attack (a bunch of weaks zombies and Varina) (and another opponent can destroy the battle too). This scenario is even less realistic if we want to attack with tokens created by Varina because that means you almost goldfished to reach that point. Plus, we need to deal 7 damages, which is a non negligible amount if we consider that the opponent will does everything he can to stop you.

I definitely can't see a reason to play this card. Just cast one of our tutors and close the game with Varina digging ability is a far more realistic scenario. Most of the time casting an Intuition or a Demonic is enough to close the game quickly.

The Arcavios lines are beautiful for sure but I doubt you ever resolve this in a mid to high power table.

Maybe it's just better to cast Swarm Intelligence (or not ? because you don't tutor for your tutor but the effect is so much easier to get).

Or if we really want to run that particular Battle, what do we cut ? Kindred discovery could go out for this one card wincon ?

[RedCheese]

Yeah im not sold on this battle or any other for a matter of fact.

[pokken]

But you need a good board presence and an opponent that does not block your attack (a bunch of weaks zombies and Varina) (and another opponent can destroy the battle too). This scenario is even less realistic if we want to attack with tokens created by Varina because that means you almost goldfished to reach that point. Plus, we need to deal 7 damages, which is a non negligible amount if we consider that the opponent will does everything he can to stop you.

I definitely can't see a reason to play this card. Just cast one of our tutors and close the game with Varina digging ability is a far more realistic scenario. Most of the time casting an Intuition or a Demonic is enough to close the game quickly.

The Arcavios lines are beautiful for sure but I doubt you ever resolve this in a mid to high power table.

Maybe it's just better to cast Swarm Intelligence (or not ? because you don't tutor for your tutor but the effect is so much easier to get).

Or if we really want to run that particular Battle, what do we cut ? Kindred discovery could go out for this one card wincon ?

"good board presence" = 7 power and one vulnerable opponent (which is basically...always. there's always someone vulnerable). Swarm intelligence costs 2 more mana and doesn't tutor or regrowth a spell. definite no. I think the main competition for the invasion is a card like Final Parting that can tutor for Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar in one go for example, or that alternative Entomb maybe?

The thing about "Just cast one of our tutors and close the game" -- sure, but you need to have one! Invasion *gets it and doubles it* which is different than anything else. Casting Intuition even requires an additional piece to win (it gets any half of a combo, but doesn't get the second piece you have to dig to)

"doubt you ever resolve this in a mid to high power table" - what are they gonna do about it, counter it? Remove some creatures? They can do that same stuff to stop you winning with anything. Say you have Demonic Tutor and tutor for some wincon, what stops them from just countering that? What stops them from just countering your Living Death? I resolve 5 mana spells all the time, are you not? We would spend 4 mana for archaeomancer zombie, so paying 5 mana for tutor or regrowth + potential game winning doubling feels alright to me.

Like I said I think the mana cost is the real issue, but I think you guys are also undervaluing the power of a single card wincondition. (especially one that has not horrible incremental effect; you can cast it, recover Living Death and pass the turn too). If this cost 4 mana it would be an autoinclude - that's how good it is.

(I am thinking about cutting Tombstone Stairwell well for it myself, since that card has required too much setup and telegraphing for me lately)

[Reya]

"doubt you ever resolve this in a mid to high power table" - what are they gonna do about it, counter it? Remove some creatures? They can do that same stuff to stop you winning with anything. Say you have Demonic Tutor and tutor for some wincon, what stops them from just countering that? What stops them from just countering your Living Death? I resolve 5 mana spells all the time, are you not? We would spend 4 mana for archaeomancer zombie, so paying 5 mana for tutor or regrowth + potential game winning doubling feels alright to me.

As soon as you resolve Invasion of Arcavios, you have a big red flag on your head Everyone will see that they need to stop you NOW. When you advance your gameplan with a single tutor, it's not so obvious that you will win just after or the next turn. It's not as telegraphied as Invasion of Arcavios. I think this is what makes me not really confidant about playing that card (and as you said, the 5 mana we need).

[Reya]

BUT, I want to be wrong and I want to try the card anyway because copying any instant and sorcery feels so good (I like to do stuff like this in Magus Lucea Kane)

[pzbw7z]

(I am thinking about cutting Tombstone Stairwell well for it myself, since that card has required too much setup and telegraphing for me lately)

I keep Stairwell only because it is so much fun when it does work; it's almost certainly too unreliable to be included on merit. I sold both copies of Invasion of Arcavios that I pulled in the pre-release, so I guess I'm not testing that.

[pokken]

As soon as you resolve Invasion of Arcavios, you have a big red flag on your head Everyone will see that they need to stop you NOW. When you advance your gameplan with a single tutor, it's not so obvious that you will win just after or the next turn. It's not as telegraphied as Invasion of Arcavios. I think this is what makes me not really confidant about playing that card (and as you said, the 5 mana we need).

Invasion has some nice sequencing advantages over other tutors. Mainly if you cast invasion and then crash they have to do something right then. They can't do like they do with other tutors and wait and interact after you try to cast what you tutored for.

If they don't stop you from flipping it a single tutor becomes basically uncounterable and every spell you get is doubled. And your counterspells can't get countered really either (since they double).

So unlike when you intuition for a combo like their window of interaction is worse.

Once you flip invasion and start doubling all your spells you're likely to win even if they slow you down.

If you invade and they kill Varina to stop it you still have a Demonic Tutor.

So you spent 5 mana and they are forced to interact at a bad time.

Anyway I'll try it out and let y'all know. I think I need to add dark ritual or cabal ritual as well tho

[pzbw7z]

Anyway I'll try it out and let y'all know. I think I need to add dark ritual or cabal ritual as well tho

Culling the Weak deserves a thought.

[toctheyounger]

Culling the Weak deserves a thought.

And a reprint if we're being honest.

[pzbw7z]

Culling the Weak deserves a thought.

And a reprint if we're being honest.

Absolutely, I'd love to see a reprint.

[pokken]

Culling the Weak deserves a thought.

It's not the worst but I think rit's floor is so much lower, and it'd be plenty most of the time. Your bottleneck is gonna be U/W usually I think.

[pzbw7z]

Culling the Weak deserves a thought.

It's not the worst but I think rit's floor is so much lower, and it'd be plenty most of the time. Your bottleneck is gonna be U/W usually I think.

I'd run all three - Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Culling the Weak - if I weren't quite so lazy.

[plaganegra]

Hey everyone it's been a while, just checking out some of the new cards and got caught up on the thread. Cool to see the ebbs and flows of people's zombie builds over time! Nice to see Otherworldly Gaze get some play time and as always Master of Death, which I still feel pretty strongly is an absolute staple in any Varina deck that turns dudes sideways (Toc, thanks for the shoutout a few pages back). Gaze has been a sneaky good card for me and I am always happy to see it because of how much cycling through my deck that happens. I love using it to trigger poxwalkers. I did an analysis of Gaze here in this post for anyone interested.

The last game I played I got back poxwalkers and prized amalgam in the same turn off of Gaze with an active Tormod, the Desecrator and Varina out. I took over the game with tokens after that and won, never used any tutors to set it up. Swinging with that many zombies fills the yard so fast! Tormod has always been my MVP because of how many ways I take things out of my graveyard. His uses seem to be ever expanding over time and he can easily take over a game in a couple turns, or turn an underwhelming board into an engine to fear.

I haven't changed my deck around in a while, which makes it kind of funny that last weekend was the first time I got to finally play "Lifetime" Pass Holder since the card came out. Everyone had fun learning what attractions do at that moment, I flipped the attraction that gives everything horsemanship 1/3 of the time and it ate a removal spell fast because of how quickly I flood the board with zombies. Still one of the strongest 1-drop zombies if you don't mind making an attraction deck.

Of the invasions the only one that seems reasonably playable for me is Invasion of Amonkhet. The rest being discussed do not play a role I want to fill better than the cards I have now, or are too costly and require way too much effort to get full value out of. Amonkhet is playable for me because it provides a ton of value for a build like mine. Mill - asymmetric discard - draw - make a scary zombie for 3 mana and 4 points of damage. It won't be challenging at all to flip this on T4-5 with my very low-curve and evasive Varina build. I see it as a card that adds a lot of fuel for me on both sides. Just on ETB I get to see 5 cards, which is a good enough T2-3 play in my book for half of a card. Flipping it is key to warranting inclusion as with any invasion I feel.

I feel like zombies got kind of forgotten in these latest sets. It seems to me that the types "phyrexian" and "zombie" should have been much more prevalent on the same card and the zombies we did get are janky or off color. Meanwhile I was working on a grixis vampire deck with Evelyn, the Covetous and was overwhelmed by how many amazing 1 and 2-drops that tribe has - it's ridiculous lol.

Overall I am extremely satisfied with my Varina deck, however, so I can't really complain...

[plaganegra]

(I am thinking about cutting Tombstone Stairwell well for it myself, since that card has required too much setup and telegraphing for me lately)

I keep Stairwell only because it is so much fun when it does work; it's almost certainly too unreliable to be included on merit. I sold both copies of Invasion of Arcavios that I pulled in the pre-release, so I guess I'm not testing that.

Still one of my absolute favorite ways to win a game of commander, last time I dropped it I won before it got back to me lol. I think the card has merit even without an aristocrat as long as you can take advantage of the attack triggers on your turn. So many bodies to sac as well.

Oh, I saw someone asking if Altar of Dementia is worth running a while ago when I just read the pages I missed... Yes. Yes it is.

Is Chain of Vapor that good? Can't wrap my head around it been that much better than an Unsummon?

It hits rest in peace etc. it also lets you protect your altars. It's insanely versatile. I even won a game double garying with it once.

Probably the most common thing way I've used it is as a combo protector (bounce your altar when they try to kill it) but I've used it to bounce all kinds of stuff so I can win.

Chain of Vapor is a card I added to my deck on Pokken's advice a while back and I don't think it will ever come out. It is cheap and insanely versatile. I cannot say enough good things about it.

So I have been looking at Poxwalkers and I have been thinking maybe I should cut it from my list. I am wondering if any of you have had some positive experience with it, and some suggestions as to have interesting cards to cast to trigger poxwalkers return to the battlefield

Hey there, the list in my signature is full of things that support Poxwalkers and all of their friends! Happy to help if you need. This has been my main zombie focus for a long time.

I do think dread return is probably underplayed. Discardable and huge tempo. Should likely come before other reanimates I think

I agree, I have been actually discarding mass reanimate more than casting it lately. I seem to find combos our out-value the table much more frequently then I Mass-reanimate to win. I think you always want to have at least one that you can loop with though. I might drop zombie apocalypse for dread return, and have been considering for a long time, but I think my love of the card is clouding my judgement lol.

[toctheyounger]

I agree, I have been actually discarding mass reanimate more than casting it lately. I seem to find combos our out-value the table much more frequently then I Mass-reanimate to win. I think you always want to have at least one that you can loop with though. I might drop zombie apocalypse for dread return, and have been considering for a long time, but I think my love of the card is clouding my judgement lol.

Living Death is where it's at for me. Functioning as both a board wipe as well as being non-conditional reanimation makes it top of the pile.

[plaganegra]

I agree, I have been actually discarding mass reanimate more than casting it lately. I seem to find combos our out-value the table much more frequently then I Mass-reanimate to win. I think you always want to have at least one that you can loop with though. I might drop zombie apocalypse for dread return, and have been considering for a long time, but I think my love of the card is clouding my judgement lol.

Living Death is where it's at for me. Functioning as both a board wipe as well as being non-conditional reanimation makes it top of the pile.

I couldn't agree more. This card is never coming out of my deck! Also, probably the most attractive mana value out of the ones we generally use besides Balthor the Defiled.

[pokken]

Balthor the Defiled is really solid from an efficiency standpoing, definitely worth thinking about playing over Zombie Apocalypse if you aren't planning to loop it. it's a pretty good way to make Intuition into a mandatory double entomb if you want too, which is a cool side effect.

The sequence of balthor+Gray Merchant of Asphodel + Relentless Dead is probably a reasonable game closer (bash, discard balthor, reanimate everybody, and if you have a sac outlet loop dead+merchant another time).

I probably need to remember the Gary+Relentless Dead combo more often too, it's pretty stupid with Ashnod's Altar to fuel it; you can gary up to once per 1BBB, which is pretty efficient all things considered (usually get 2-3 in the late game, more with big mana lands).

Which reminds me again that I need to remember Ashnod's Altar + Varina, Lich Queen + Kindred Discovery or Undead Augur are both alternate combos that can get you there Man this deck is dense with shenanigans.

Chain of Vapor is a card I added to my deck on Pokken's advice a while back and I don't think it will ever come out. It is cheap and insanely versatile. I cannot say enough good things about it.

Can't take too much credit for this one because it's a CEDH allstar, but it feels perfect for Varina's aggro-combo gameplan, at least with my build.