Having Your Voice Heard

[Jace]

I don't complain without suggesting a solution, so I suggest the RC release a "Warning List" or "Cards Under Evaluation" list that includes cards being considered for banning, or being observed, so players can feel more assured that the RC and its consultants are actually attending to the format outside of surprise banning.

This actually makes things worse, not better. We used to have this many years ago. All it does it lead to people freaking out about cards that may never be banned (imagine if there'd been 10 cards banned last week - you basically have a mini version of that every time), spending endless hours yelling abut how we'd better not do it, and rather than stabilizing the prices on cards, just makes the whole thing more volatile.

It's not like there's surprise bans. PE and Iona have been 2 of the - let's say 10 - most complained about cards for quite some time. I think people just got complacent because we try to keep the format as stable as possible and hadn't banned anything for a long time. Anyone paying any attention on forums has a pretty solid idea of what cards are under consideration.

So it's preferred to have no transparency and have cards secretly assessed on such a list, and spontaneously banned, instead of us knowing about what they're evaluating, and will ban one way or another? Doesn't seem better to me.

[Azerim]

Three important things:
1. Accept cEDH as part of the format. It might not be the RC's favorite way of playing, but it is a way tens of thousands of people play, and those people are often very dedicated players. /r/cEDH has alomst 28k members and currently 100 people online, /r/EDH has 81k members (only 3 times more) and 500 people online (5 times more). That says that cEDH isn't 1% of the players. but probably much closer to 10% or even more. In my LGS there are around 30 EDH players, around 6 of them have a cEDH deck if somebody wants to play a cEDH table. cEDH is a minority of the format, but a minority that is probably around 10% of the players, which is still tens of thousands of people around the globe.
Banning Paradox Engine straight out destroyed some cEDH decks and made some decks simply better (looking at you FlashHulk decks). Captain Sisay and Arcum decks just ceased to exist. often making people who owned them lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars. While the voice of the casual EDH community is split on PE ban - a pole on reddit said around 50/50 split and in the overall, in a pole on MtG Nexus around 25% wanted it unbanned. cEDH community mostly doesn't agree with it, because it simply wasn't a problem in cEDH and in casual it was an inconvenience at most.
Whenever you want to ban a card, think at least a bit about cEDH, contact some cEDH people and ask them on their opinion about it. Another thing is the lack of Flash ban, it's something to consider for cEDH that wouldn't impact casual EDH in the slightest.

2. For the love of God, start using Reddit. Reddit is the go to place for Internet forums, simply because it stood the test of time and you can have access to many different forums from one page. Why is it important? Because it is the easiest way to communicate with the community. Very few people visit MtG Nexus and mtgcommander.net site and it's forum (which are both severely outdated in style) compared to /r/EDH. Please make something along the lines of /r/Official_Commander_Rules_Discussion and post there. The only reason I saw this thread and the latest pole was because people on Reddit linked it. If you want to be transparent, try to make the information easily accessible! Rules Committee is from what I know only 4 people, which determine the rules for most likely the single biggest format in Magic. Ask people on their opinions on Reddit, make poles there so people can see them.

3. Place less emphasis on play group (The lest important point of the three). I know that making rules with your friends can be fun, but from what I know most people don't have a stable playgroup (a pole on this topic would be interesting). If you allow some cards or ban some cards in a playgroup, or even play with different mulligan, decks of that playgroup become less compatible with the rest of the format, it's harder for them to play with somebody else AND it's harder for somebody to join that playgroup for a few games. Consider this while making rules and philosophy of the format. Official Commander rules should be the main way to play the format, encouraging changing them has some real downsides.

[cryogen]

Three important things:
1. Accept cEDH as part of the format. It might not be the RC's favorite way of playing, but it is a way tens of thousands of people play, and those people are often very dedicated players. /r/cEDH has alomst 28k members and currently 100 people online, /r/EDH has 81k members (only 3 times more) and 500 people online (5 times more). That says that cEDH isn't 1% of the players. but probably much closer to 10% or even more. In my LGS there are around 30 EDH players, around 6 of them have a cEDH deck if somebody wants to play a cEDH table. cEDH is a minority of the format, but a minority that is probably around 10% of the players, which is still tens of thousands of people around the globe.
Banning Paradox Engine straight out destroyed some cEDH decks and made some decks simply better (looking at you FlashHulk decks). Captain Sisay and Arcum decks just ceased to exist. often making people who owned them lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars. While the voice of the casual EDH community is split on PE ban - a pole on reddit said around 50/50 split and in the overall, in a pole on MtG Nexus around 25% wanted it unbanned. cEDH community mostly doesn't agree with it, because it simply wasn't a problem in cEDH and in casual it was an inconvenience at most.
Whenever you want to ban a card, think at least a bit about cEDH, contact some cEDH people and ask them on their opinion about it. Another thing is the lack of Flash ban, it's something to consider for cEDH that wouldn't impact casual EDH in the slightest.

2. For the love of God, start using Reddit. Reddit is the go to place for Internet forums, simply because it stood the test of time and you can have access to many different forums from one page. Why is it important? Because it is the easiest way to communicate with the community. Very few people visit MtG Nexus and mtgcommander.net site and it's forum (which are both severely outdated in style) compared to /r/EDH. Please make something along the lines of /r/Official_Commander_Rules_Discussion and post there. The only reason I saw this thread and the latest pole was because people on Reddit linked it. If you want to be transparent, try to make the information easily accessible! Rules Committee is from what I know only 4 people, which determine the rules for most likely the single biggest format in Magic. Ask people on their opinions on Reddit, make poles there so people can see them.

3. Place less emphasis on play group (The lest important point of the three). I know that making rules with your friends can be fun, but from what I know most people don't have a stable playgroup (a pole on this topic would be interesting). If you allow some cards or ban some cards in a playgroup, or even play with different mulligan, decks of that playgroup become less compatible with the rest of the format, it's harder for them to play with somebody else AND it's harder for somebody to join that playgroup for a few games. Consider this while making rules and philosophy of the format. Official Commander rules should be the main way to play the format, encouraging changing them has some real downsides.

Going to keep this brief because I'm not Sheldon nor RC, but I do want to respond/comment on this:

1. cEDH is definitely part of the format, but not the main part, so anything which affects it should be almost an afterthought. For example, a small group of players enjoy stax and land destruction, so every once in a while WotC will design a card for them. BUT, they make sure that it isn't something which will negatively warp Standard. Similarly, the RC shouldn't be afraid to ban or unban something to keep the cEDH players happy and diverse, but not at the expense of the majority of players. PE was a ban which I felt hit all levels of play, and not banning it because of the affect it would have on cEDH players would have been irresponsible. They also shouldn't worry about affecting the price for the same reason Wizards doesn't worry about it in Modern bans. Overall though, I agree that cEDH should be included more.

2. Cut us some slack with not being well trafficked, we just opened a week ago :p But more seriously, if the Reddit mods are going to be light handed and allow users to flame and insult the RC, then why SHOULD they use that forum if they'll have to just wade through a lot of vitriol-filled posts just to find a hidden gem? My suspicion is that if your mods were willing to put in the hard work to change the behavior of users then the RC would be more active there. It's what I did on MTGS when I first came on staff and the results spoke for themself.

3. I don't think that this is anywhere near accurate, no matter how many people claim it or how Sheldon's words get twisted.

[tstorm823]

So it's preferred to have no transparency and have cards secretly assessed on such a list, and spontaneously banned, instead of us knowing about what they're evaluating, and will ban one way or another? Doesn't seem better to me.

I have to assume the list of borderline cards worth watching is longer than the ban list itself, and the majority of those cards will never be touched. Why make a whole bunch of people needlessly anxious that their cards are being watched? If what you want is fair warning, why not just ask for that. If bans were announced a season ahead of going into effect to give people time to discuss and adapt to the change, would that help?

[tstorm823]

snip about reddit

You could not have this conversation on reddit. Reddit is social media, which like traditional media, is performative rather than conversational. Having a discourse on reddit is little more effective than talking back to your TV. You may be able to respond to someone there, but what they say and what you say aren't meant for each other, they're meant for the thousands of people in the audience, especially when the audience gets to vote on whose opinion is worth hiding.

This is a discussion board. It is designed for discussion, not performance. Where everything goes in chronological order and you can easily follow who is talking to whom, and the people who just want to scream into the void are buried by time rather than immortalized as the top post. I appreciate reddit for the performance it is, it is very entertaining, and for taking the people screaming into the void off our hands here, but it's very different than a forum and will not replace this. Forums are only outdated if meaningful discussion is as well.

Edit
Sorry for the double post, forgot I was in the same thread.

[Hermes_]

2. For the love of God, start using Reddit. Reddit is the go to place for Internet forums, simply because it stood the test of time and you can have access to many different forums from one page. Why is it important? Because it is the easiest way to communicate with the community. Very few people visit MtG Nexus and mtgcommander.net site and it's forum (which are both severely outdated in style) compared to /r/EDH. Please make something along the lines of /r/Official_Commander_Rules_Discussion and post there. The only reason I saw this thread and the latest pole was because people on Reddit linked it. If you want to be transparent, try to make the information easily accessible! Rules Committee is from what I know only 4 people, which determine the rules for most likely the single biggest format in Magic. Ask people on their opinions on Reddit, make poles there so people can see them.

Ugh..Reddit isn't meant for long term discussions,now with that said I put up a poll last night and currently with 41 responses,so far a whopping 61% have never visited mtgcommander.net. Now it's a "If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain " type of thing, but as others have pointed reddit just makes ones skin crawl.

[pokken]

<snip>
Banning Paradox Engine straight out destroyed some cEDH decks and made some decks simply better (looking at you FlashHulk decks). Captain Sisay and Arcum decks just ceased to exist. often making people who owned them lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars. While the voice of the casual EDH community is split on PE ban - a pole on reddit said around 50/50 split and in the overall, in a pole on MtG Nexus around 25% wanted it unbanned. cEDH community mostly doesn't agree with it, because it simply wasn't a problem in cEDH and in casual it was an inconvenience at most.

Well, competitive Sisay decks ceased to exist. On the other side of the tunnel came a huge raft of Sisay decks no longer feeling pressured to run it.

Paradox Engine and Flash are both phenomenal examples of where it could be correct to cater to CEDH-- One had significant impact to casual play, and one has none. It's fine to listen to the CEDHers where there's no casual impact, but once there becomes casual impact their opinions shouldn't hold any sway at all.

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

[Styrofoam]

<snip>
Banning Paradox Engine straight out destroyed some cEDH decks and made some decks simply better (looking at you FlashHulk decks). Captain Sisay and Arcum decks just ceased to exist. often making people who owned them lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars. While the voice of the casual EDH community is split on PE ban - a pole on reddit said around 50/50 split and in the overall, in a pole on MtG Nexus around 25% wanted it unbanned. cEDH community mostly doesn't agree with it, because it simply wasn't a problem in cEDH and in casual it was an inconvenience at most.

Well, competitive Sisay decks ceased to exist. On the other side of the tunnel came a huge raft of Sisay decks no longer feeling pressured to run it.

Paradox Engine and Flash are both phenomenal examples of where it could be correct to cater to CEDH-- One had significant impact to casual play, and one has none. It's fine to listen to the CEDHers where there's no casual impact, but once there becomes casual impact their opinions shouldn't hold any sway at all.

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

I think any cEDH player with the ability to understand what EDH is, where it came from and what makes it popular would also agree.

It's not like we're asking something mundane to be banned - we are asking for something that is not played outside of cEDH in any significant margin to be banned because it's simply too good. If casual players started noticing they can just cast flash and hulk for value, and not even win the game right there, it will STILL lead to bigger problems in casual games. It's not as if flash is just safe. It's not. It's patently not a safe card.

[Neuroplasticity]

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

This is an awful mentality that indicates your opinion about bettering the health of the format should be discarded.

This game is for everyone, regardless of if you're deeply salty you had to play against a deck that was better than yours once.

[Styrofoam]

cEDH players aren't trying to take over commander. They just want to feel like their fun matters too.

Really? Some messages are really... interesting, however. Like this one:

I think Commander is now much larger than the perspectives of the original RC can properly manage. I think WOTC has demonstrated through new card development that they understand what players are seeking in EDH, and I think the format should be managed by WOTC.

I don't get why cEDH players' fun isn't mattering. Wotc prints a lot of broken cards. The banlist is extremely thin. The format is fast and powerful.
What do you want more?

Some people think that WOTC is far more equipped with handling the direction of a format. I for one, disagree with them. But there are likely casual players that share that sentiment that WOTC would be better at making commander a Wizards official format.


I'll put the question to you that I originally put to Sheldon (who has ignored pretty much everything the people who hold differing opinions have said)

If you are running a city of 100 people, and the majority of them are demographic A... say, 85/100... and you pass rules and laws and regulations to ensure that Demographic A is catered to in your city, and for the most part, they are happy. Then, the other 15 people, say demographic B say "hey we are relatively happy with the way the city is being run, but we have a big big problem down here, could you take a look at it and maybe fix it? It doesn't affect the other 85 people literally at all" and then you, as the city director says "Ahhhh, yes. I see your issue. It's not an issue that affects demographic A, so, while I recognize the problem, I'm not gonna do anything about it." And then, on top of that, when the voices start to get raised about the problem, the solution is "Well... maybe you should make your own city then"


cEDH players BY AND LARGE (again, not everyone... there are jerks in every circle) don't want to tell people how to enjoy commander. Why do you have such a desire to tell them they can't enjoy the game THEY want to play too? I can enjoy commander in a variety of ways. One of those ways is to play a very tuned cEDH turn 3-4 combo deck, and another is to play mono white bird tribal. Neither of them is superior to the other. Both are valid ways to enjoy commander, i am an EDH player in either case.

What I want, is to listen to the cEDH players complaints... then look and see if what they are asking for affects casual play at all. If the answer is "no" then whats the harm? If the answer is "yes" then say tough cookies, we are going to err on the side of keeping things casual.

*EDIT* For the most part, i think most cEDH players *WANT* a ban on the card flash. I can't speak for all of them, but i've spoken to a LOT of cEDH players and this is the number 1 thing they want from commander.

[cryogen]

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

This is an awful mentality that indicates your opinion about bettering the health of the format should be discarded.

This game is for everyone, regardless of if you're deeply salty you had to play against a deck that was better than yours once.

Could you image the backlash if Wizards made a Modern ban to appease the casual players that don't attend anything more than the occasional FNM and severely hurt the majority of players who play the format?

[Jim Wolfie]

[mention]Styrofoam[/mention] not for nothing but your analogy is sorta off because city politics way more complicated than a clean split like that. Even here in cmdr land, casual opinions are not monolithic, and not everyone is playing the same brand of casual, not do they play that way forever. From what they've said the RC are not banning based on the majority, they're banning based on their vision. These aren't the same things, and if that survey has any credibility that cryogen made, then 60% of respondents to the question did not care one way or another about a p engine ban or didn't want it banned. (I haven't checked in a while.).

[Neuroplasticity]

Could you image the backlash if Wizards made a Modern ban to appease the casual players that don't attend anything more than the occasional FNM and severely hurt the majority of players who play the format?

This analogy fails because Modern is a tournament format. What many people are failing to put together is that a vast majority of cEDH games are casual games, in the sense that it's a socially-oriented experience on a kitchen or LGS backroom table with nothing at stake.

The power-level that most people play should obviously be weighted in decisions in proportion to population. But saying their games don't matter and they should be neglected on a 1000:1 ratio because they play powerful cards is exclusionary and dehumanizing.

[Jace]

So it's preferred to have no transparency and have cards secretly assessed on such a list, and spontaneously banned, instead of us knowing about what they're evaluating, and will ban one way or another? Doesn't seem better to me.

I have to assume the list of borderline cards worth watching is longer than the ban list itself, and the majority of those cards will never be touched. Why make a whole bunch of people needlessly anxious that their cards are being watched? If what you want is fair warning, why not just ask for that. If bans were announced a season ahead of going into effect to give people time to discuss and adapt to the change, would that help?

It's not a warning so much that I'd prefer, but the idea that a card of concern, such as Cyclonic Rift, is being at least considered or evaluated. Otherwise, no one can really be sure their voice is being heard until a ban is announced. Which are infrequent.

[ilovesaprolings]

Some people think that WOTC is far more equipped with handling the direction of a format. I for one, disagree with them. But there are likely casual players that share that sentiment that WOTC would be better at making commander a Wizards official format.

After seeing all the overpowered and unfun crap wizards printed during these, sorry if i don't take this kind of people seriously
Maro never plays commander and hate multiplayer politics, yet he designed commander 2018 and submitted a mechanic that was even more broken than eminence.
And we should trust these guys to regulate the format while Sheldon&co made this format the most popular literally from nothing? Why?

This game is for everyone, regardless of if you're deeply salty you had to play against a deck that was better than yours once.

*Looks at the list of casual format VS the list of competitive format*
mmh....
But hey, you threw "you are a bad magic player" argument, so i guess you must be right

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

The funny thing is that it's usually the opposite. A single competitive deck makes hundreds of casual deck because they are not fast or resilient enough. The more competitive the format become, the more generals get pushed in the unplayable category.
Right now if i want to play token, why should i play anything else except Edgar Markov? he is simply better tha anything else

[pokken]

This is an awful mentality that indicates your opinion about bettering the health of the format should be discarded.

(1) This game is for everyone, regardless of (2) if you're deeply salty you had to play against a deck that was better than yours once.

1) Magic is maybe for almost everyone. EDH is not for everyone. It has a stated purpose that clearly excludes people trying to play it competitively (from having their concerns addressed by the format rules & banlist). If you choose to play it anyway you get what you get.

2) You get me. You really get me!

[Styrofoam]

@Styrofoam not for nothing but your analogy is sorta off because city politics way more complicated than a clean split like that. Even here in cmdr land, casual opinions are not monolithic, and not everyone is playing the same brand of casual, not do they play that way forever. From what they've said the RC are not banning based on the majority, they're banning based on their vision. These aren't the same things, and if that survey has any credibility that cryogen made, then 60% of respondents to the question did not care one way or another about a p engine ban or didn't want it banned. (I haven't checked in a while.).

I agree, it's not an exact analogy, but it is certainly close enough to get the point across. cEDH players are under the impression that the way they want to enjoy the game is "not real commander" and if they want to enjoy the game that way, to just create a new format...

And i just want to point out, flash could EASILY become a problem in "casual" games when the game naturally powers up, like it is already doing, and people play flash for value, not even to just get auto-win hulk piles.

EDIT: and I don't mean majority as in "what does the majority want banned" but rather, what is good for the majority of players playing, in our estimation.

[Styrofoam]

Some people think that WOTC is far more equipped with handling the direction of a format. I for one, disagree with them. But there are likely casual players that share that sentiment that WOTC would be better at making commander a Wizards official format.

After seeing all the overpowered and unfun crap wizards printed during these, sorry if i don't take this kind of people seriously
Maro never plays commander and hate multiplayer politics, yet he designed commander 2018 and submitted a mechanic that was even more broken than eminence.
And we should trust these guys to regulate the format while Sheldon&co made this format the most popular literally from nothing? Why?

This game is for everyone, regardless of if you're deeply salty you had to play against a deck that was better than yours once.

*Looks at the list of casual format VS the list of competitive format*
mmh....
But hey, you threw "you are a bad magic player" argument, so i guess you must be right

If a thousand CEDH Sisay decks have to die so that one casual one can live, I am fine with that

The funny thing is that it's usually the opposite. A single competitive deck makes hundreds of casual deck because they are not fast or resilient enough. The more competitive the format become, the more generals get pushed in the unplayable category.
Right now if i want to play token, why should i play anything else except Edgar Markov? he is simply better tha anything else

Dude, you're really angry and I'm trying to figure out why... do people in your area just trounce you with decks like Thrasios/Tymna flash hulk or First sliver food chain on a regular basis? I can understand why that wouldn't be fun if you're trying to avoid that type of game play. Those people are jerks, and probably have an insecurity issue that makes them feel like the only way they can feel validated at magic, is to win, and they don't feel secure enough to win against equally powerful decks.

As far as the argument for WOTC taking over commander... you're preaching to the choir here, I agree with you, though not for the same reasons you've stated. WOTC makes cards for dozens of reasons, and its impact on commander is the last on their minds....chiefly because as of right now, the format is policed by an independent (ish) committee that can fix the problems that problematic cards make. WOTC has an obligation to for the health of the entire game, and as of right now... they've been doing a really friggen good job, considering how much money Hasbro just admitted magic is making them.

Finally... I think that your anger is misplaced on the "competitive decks pushing less competitive ones out" This is the part where Sheldon's words really should resonate with you... talk to your play group and come up with some sort of understanding. If there is really an arms race, find ways to slow that race down, or reset it - but You should be able to play any token deck you want if you want to, but you have to have the talk with your play group. If your only goal is to win against 3 players when you play commander, then there's a good chance you have more in common with cEDH players than you want to admit. I have seen, whilst playing my Soraya The falconer mono white bird deck, plenty of decks that there are strictly better versions of out there. Hell, mono white birds honestly makes it where I can't even play some of the best birds printed. But I wanted a deck I can enjoy while playing with people who want to just sit around a table and play magic for a length of time, and not worry about getting food-chained on turn 4 and having only cast 2 spells.


I am empathetic to the "casual" commander's point of view, because I put myself into that role and try and see your perspective. Have you given it any thought to try and have some empathy for your fellow magic players?

[cryogen]

Could you image the backlash if Wizards made a Modern ban to appease the casual players that don't attend anything more than the occasional FNM and severely hurt the majority of players who play the format?

This analogy fails because Modern is a tournament format. What many people are failing to put together is that a vast majority of cEDH games are casual games, in the sense that it's a socially-oriented experience on a kitchen or LGS backroom table with nothing at stake.

The power-level that most people play should obviously be weighted in decisions in proportion to population. But saying their games don't matter and they should be neglected on a 1000:1 ratio because they play powerful cards is exclusionary and dehumanizing.

It's may be a tournament format (I don't necessarily agree, but that's neither here nor there), but the point is not everyone plays at the tournament level. So if you make a ban to appease 10% of the players but hurt 90% of the players, you're making a mistake. It doesn't really matter the demographic or intent of the format.

[MidKnight]

That's it. I'm making an account and posting. I can only take insensitive, rude, and hateful comments of Pokken for so long before I officially feel completely dehumanized for enjoying EDH differently than him.

Hi Sheldon, I'm a cEDH player. My voice feels unheard by you, and my playgroup feels demonized by you, cryogen, this forum, and the committee. Let's get started:

1) The ban list - the ban list is a misnomer in it of itself. The point of a banlist is to generate a meta that is appropriately fun and powerful. You've stated, in big bold words (literally), that your banlist doesn't hope to establish or regulate the power of decks. That's ignorant, and a weak use of the ban list. Of course you need to regulate power levels in EDH. You can hide behind very very powerful cards being "unfun" (a subjective term at best), but in reality if strategies are too powerful they over-centralize the meta and the format and you nor anybody else should want that. You need to use the ban list, at least sometimes, to regulate power levels.

1b) The committee keeps stating "well it's not an official ban list, this is just how OUR playgroup functions. You're free to curate and uphold your own! That's the spirit of EDH", that's fine but that's not actually how this works. Maybe with the 3 other people I know well I can communicate that via text before I leave to the LGS, but by and large, card shops around the nation take YOUR ban list as gospel, and hold events, PRIZE SUPPORTED events, with your ban list as the only way to play magic.

2) Cards that see almost no play at all in the casual EDH community but ravage the competitive community are the PERFECT cards to ban. Nobody in your playgroup is playing flash. Nobody. It doesn't do anything fun, it exists only to do very broken things. You really wanted Protean Hulk unbanned for the Golgari players looking to value out some cards, fair enough. Hulk is fine. Who in your community is playing flash? Why? Why would anyone who's playing a tribal deck, counters deck, superfriends deck, storm deck, tokens deck, theme deck, any deck that isn't broken busted cEDH want access to flash? The answer of course is that you don't want flash, you don't need flash, you know Flash + Hulk is the most unfair thing you can legally do in EDH right now but you STILL won't do anything about it. Why would I feel like I matter when that's the case? Why would this entire community of players who enjoy a highly tuned game of magic feel like our voices are heard?

3) At the end of the day, you capitalize, bold, and underline that we are the minorities that just need to deal with it. The tens of thousands of us just need to suck it up. Stay in our lane that shrinks at your will. Don't feel entitled for your voice to be heard. You literally said "we know Flash + Hulk is OP, and that flash has no use in casual, but you won't ban it anyways because we don't ban for power level purposes". I don't understand why you think what people come up with in cEDH doesn't bleed over to the casual community. It absolutely does. It's why "all of a sudden" every Gitrog deck has a Dakmor Salvage in it. It's natural to want to make your deck better, and that's when they all start looking at us to crack their puzzle box and make their deck better. But as soon as we want our voice heard, we're told we're not who EDH is for.

I don't even feel like spending the time telling you about all the harm the Paradox Engine ban has done to completely over-centralize the meta in cEDH. How the rich got richer and the poor died malnourished because a bunch of commanders and color identities are no longer viable because of this move. None of us feel bothered to tell you how we feel or give you the specifics about decks including HARD data like our 100 goldfish games on Breakfast Hulk to know just how absurd some cards are in EDH because why would we? Why would we expect you to listen to us about niche and specific problems if you're going around telling the world we don't matter.

No I don't feel listened to, I feel hated out of the one format I play in Magic. I only play magic to play EDH. And about 80% of my EDH games are consented upon cEDH games, and the other 20% casual games. I have a lot of fun with both, I'd be lying if I didn't say I have a lot more fun in competitive. And we feel unwanted. Please, make an effort to make us feel listened to. Or stop making these threads and posts all together, because it's like political lip service to say "I don't know what's wrong, our ears are always open to hear complaints!!!!" and then not actual acknowledge us in any real matter.

[75chan]

Could you image the backlash if Wizards made a Modern ban to appease the casual players that don't attend anything more than the occasional FNM and severely hurt the majority of players who play the format?

This analogy fails because Modern is a tournament format. What many people are failing to put together is that a vast majority of cEDH games are casual games, in the sense that it's a socially-oriented experience on a kitchen or LGS backroom table with nothing at stake.

The power-level that most people play should obviously be weighted in decisions in proportion to population. But saying their games don't matter and they should be neglected on a 1000:1 ratio because they play powerful cards is exclusionary and dehumanizing.

Come on. Exclusionary, sure, but I wasn't aware having the EDH banlist consider you is not an innate part of humanity. I don't think the banlist should consider cEDH. It should ban cards that ruin low- to mid-level casual games, because that's what the format is designed to. In general I just don't want it to consider competitive balance. I'm fine with Flash being banned because the most casual thing I've seen someone do with it is Flash --> Rector --> Omniscience and that's not in cEDH and that seems to be most people's experience with the card.

Right now if i want to play token, why should i play anything else except Edgar Markov? he is simply better tha anything else

Because you're not a 100% spike? There's a ton of variant token decks you can make, in the color combination you like, with the general you like and specific card combination you like. Not everything will be 100% optimized and stuff like Tokens will be outspiked by other strategies so what is really the point of spiking it?

[cryogen]

[mention]MidKnight[/mention] at no point have I made any conscious attempt through my words or actions to demonize anyone, nor do I wish this forum and site to demonize or ostracize anyone because of their preferred style of play. I'd love to discuss with you why you feel that way, either in this thread if it relates to Sheldon's question or in PM if it's going to derail the thread.

[pokken]

That's it. I'm making an account and posting. I can only take insensitive, rude, and hateful comments of Pokken for so long before I officially feel completely dehumanized for enjoying EDH differently than him.

Hi Sheldon, I'm a cEDH player. My voice feels unheard by you, and my playgroup feels demonized by you, cryogen, this forum, and the committee. Let's get started:

1) The ban list - the ban list is a misnomer in it of itself. The point of a banlist is to generate a meta that is appropriately fun and powerful. You've stated, in big bold words (literally), that your banlist doesn't hope to establish or regulate the power of decks. That's ignorant, and a weak use of the ban list. Of course you need to regulate power levels in EDH. You can hide behind very very powerful cards being "unfun" (a subjective term at best), but in reality if strategies are too powerful they over-centralize the meta and the format and you nor anybody else should want that. You need to use the ban list, at least sometimes, to regulate power levels.

1b) The committee keeps stating "well it's not an official ban list, this is just how OUR playgroup functions. You're free to curate and uphold your own! That's the spirit of EDH", that's fine but that's not actually how this works. Maybe with the 3 other people I know well I can communicate that via text before I leave to the LGS, but by and large, card shops around the nation take YOUR ban list as gospel, and hold events, PRIZE SUPPORTED events, with your ban list as the only way to play magic.

2) Cards that see almost no play at all in the casual EDH community but ravage the competitive community are the PERFECT cards to ban. Nobody in your playgroup is playing flash. Nobody. It doesn't do anything fun, it exists only to do very broken things. You really wanted Protean Hulk unbanned for the Golgari players looking to value out some cards, fair enough. Hulk is fine. Who in your community is playing flash? Why? Why would anyone who's playing a tribal deck, counters deck, superfriends deck, storm deck, tokens deck, theme deck, any deck that isn't broken busted cEDH want access to flash? The answer of course is that you don't want flash, you don't need flash, you know Flash + Hulk is the most unfair thing you can legally do in EDH right now but you STILL won't do anything about it. Why would I feel like I matter when that's the case? Why would this entire community of players who enjoy a highly tuned game of magic feel like our voices are heard?

3) At the end of the day, you capitalize, bold, and underline that we are the minorities that just need to deal with it. The tens of thousands of us just need to suck it up. Stay in our lane that shrinks at your will. Don't feel entitled for your voice to be heard. You literally said "we know Flash + Hulk is OP, and that flash has no use in casual, but you won't ban it anyways because we don't ban for power level purposes". I don't understand why you think what people come up with in cEDH doesn't bleed over to the casual community. It absolutely does. It's why "all of a sudden" every Gitrog deck has a Dakmor Salvage in it. It's natural to want to make your deck better, and that's when they all start looking at us to crack their puzzle box and make their deck better. But as soon as we want our voice heard, we're told we're not who EDH is for.

I don't even feel like spending the time telling you about all the harm the Paradox Engine ban has done to completely over-centralize the meta in cEDH. How the rich got richer and the poor died malnourished because a bunch of commanders and color identities are no longer viable because of this move. None of us feel bothered to tell you how we feel or give you the specifics about decks including HARD data like our 100 goldfish games on Breakfast Hulk to know just how absurd some cards are in EDH because why would we? Why would we expect you to listen to us about niche and specific problems if you're going around telling the world we don't matter.

No I don't feel listened to, I feel hated out of the one format I play in Magic. I only play magic to play EDH. And about 80% of my EDH games are consented upon cEDH games, and the other 20% casual games. I have a lot of fun with both, I'd be lying if I didn't say I have a lot more fun in competitive. And we feel unwanted. Please, make an effort to make us feel listened to. Or stop making these threads and posts all together, because it's like political lip service to say "I don't know what's wrong, our ears are always open to hear complaints!!!!" and then not actual acknowledge us in any real matter.

I find it somewhat confusing that you in the same breath say we're excluding you, and then want changes that would exclude us (from the format that is designed for us). Such as banning cards based on objective power level (see bolded).

In EDH there is no such thing as an over-centralized meta today. I haven't played against more than 2 of the same deck in *months* at my shop in the casual circles.

The banlist as it exists has generated a ridiculously diverse meta - outside of CEDH. And that's its job.

I don't hate you guys I just hope nobody takes what you want and makes decisions for the format based on that, because what you want is at odds with the format's mission.

[MidKnight]

Oh you don't hate us, you just have a hope NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO US OR CONSIDERS OUR PERSPECTIVE. Got it. Thank you so much. Yes that is comforting to hear. Am I taking crazy pills or is this type of toxicity just... wildly unacceptable at all levels.

cEDH players ARE EDH PLAYERS. I don't know why you can't understand or choose not to accept that.

[pokken]

Oh you don't hate us, you just have a hope NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO US OR CONSIDERS OUR PERSPECTIVE. Got it. Thank you so much. Yes that is comforting to hear. Am I taking crazy pills or is this type of toxicity just... wildly unacceptable at all levels.

cEDH players ARE EDH PLAYERS. I don't know why you can't understand or choose not to accept that.

I'm really sorry you feel that I'm being toxic. I feel like it's reasonable to have a difference of opinion on this topic.

At its most fundamental level I do not think CEDH is EDH any more than kitchen table is vintage because they share the same ruleset. And that's the point we differ on. It's not that I don't think you guys are human it's that I differ on whether what you're playing is EDH.

The changes you are requesting would flip the script and exclude casual players for the sake of competitive players. If you have a great plan for peaceful coexistence I'm happy to hear it, but not one that swaps one form of exclusion for another.