@pokken and
@toctheyounger - regarding Toc's updated list:
(Sorry for the lengthy replies)
Ponder is a great card and it does all the things you are sharing quite well - it is the hedge you say.
But, looking at the manabase in Toc's list I see mana problems that Ponder is less likely to fix or hedge as well as it does in your list. Toc's manabase is greedy for my taste mostly because of the collections of lands I listed above - any opener with two of those lands is probably a mulligan or an unnecessary uphill battle of digging for the color you need (which is harder to find if you don't run as many pain lands, battle lands, or 5c lands, and do use a lot of basics). Although it might be anecdotally fine, I don't think the math works out well here. But, the beauty of deckbuilding is you can say "to hell with the math!" if you want to gamble. Each deckbuilder has to decide their own risk tolerance they are willing to take on with how the list is constructed. Pokkens list is very very different in how it facilitates consistent mana production enabling this low to the ground strategy. Ponder is kind of a distraction from the point I am trying to make. Personally, I focused on my mana production and land selections mostly because of Pokken's advice and examples from a while ago in this thread and it has made playing my deck so much more enjoyable. Pokken, I am surprised you skipped right over that actually lol. I think at the time, you recommended I run a maximum of three "colorless" lands because I had like 5+ or something in my list. Your advice really helped improve my enjoyment of playing EDH in general, but especially Varina, so thank you! Hoping to point to that with Toc here in case it was an oversight.
The first 4-5 turns are more than likely to predict the outcome of that game so it should be the focus in how you set up your odds for success - especially if you are trying to curve out with zombies as often as possible (realizing that is not the only way to build Varina).
I think that
epiphany at the drownyard and
fact or fiction are okay and I see how they can mitigate your problem, but I really LOVE the idea of
Ad Nausaum. That new tech in mind, I just feel like maybe there is something better to do in your shell than these cards but I could definitely be wrong. I noticed
master of death missing from Toc's list which is very often a free draw for me every single turn after Varina hits the table. I am not sure what else to recommend right now but I am really thinking on it for you!
Toc, again a pitch for
poxwalkers and
haakon, stromgald scourge to mix with all that combo goodness in your deck since you didn't comment on them specifically. Haakon is stronger than liliana in the loops that apply (changelings). Liliana combos with more pieces and creates more viable loops, but Haakon comes back, can be pitched now and cast later, costs less, and has additional utility over time with the other knights if you aren't in a position to combo win. Poxwalkers adds a free body to every cast trigger in all of these loops with either Liliana or Haakon or Gravecrawler. I can understand skipping both cards if you just want to dabble in the combo lines and not focus on them as much, though. Poxwalkers was passed over quickly when it was spoiled, but I think it is a fantastic inclusion for Varina decks that include haakon and/or liliana and doesn't need any other support if these loops are a feature of the deck. Just for consideration and discussion.
I cannot speak from experience how each unique list should refill hands in the mid-late game because I am pretty focused on my unique version which has different challenges. But I will take any opportunity I can to point out that the auto-recursion creatures help to solve this problem by scaling Varina's draw engine quickly while providing resilience and card advantage in a multidimensional shell. Elaborated below in spoiler:
That doesn't mean you should include them by any means because it requires a commitment in deckbuilding that continues to expand over time (just adding the lot of them to any list won't work). In my experience playing lists I have brewed up that heavily feature this strategy as a central element, I usually don't run out of cards in the mid-late game once the loot engine gets going. So I focus a lot on how to consistently get that engine going and I then freely drop anything I don't need right away to in the GY for later use while selecting key cards to hold in hand (like a counterspell, altar, or mass reanimate). I changed my list around a lot recently with the help here and I hope what I have removed does take too much away from this aspect. I took out a couple things that really helped me keep my hand and board well-supplied in
necroduality (doubling a lot of effects that end up netting me card advantage) and
Kindred Discovery (all the drawing). I might have to add one or both back in if I find myself running out of gas because they have generally over-performed for me. It's all in flux and these are just things I am pointing out for discussion. I know necroduality is not in favor generally for the group here, but it has served me very well in the unique shell I have created, so I am not pushing for that as a general statement.
The release of
Bladewhip Transmogrant probably bolsters this shell more than any other Varina-style because of how it triggers
prized amalgam and how quickly this shell fills the GY. Wizards is constantly creating new zombies over time that can come back by jumping through some kind of small hoop which results in this shell getting deeper and stronger over time. Most of them work together pretty well lately anyway (looking at you
dread wanderer and
bloodsoaked champion).
Silversmote Ghoul is the best auto-reanimator for a miderange Varina build, does not require the full shell I utilize to be effective, and even has a decent draw effect. I will probably stop beating this drum so much when it gets added to the primer as a card selection option (or the whole list of these guys actually) /wink lol. I am putting in a ton of time trying to refine this strategy and share it here as a viable option for other Varina deckbuilders and this is really the only outlet. I firmly believe there are many ways to love your Varina deck and just want to share these ideas with others.
I think the best answer to mass exile effects is a combination sac outlets and counterspells (which we all seem to agree on), and that is why I really love
plumb the forbidden in your lists. I might add it to mine actually because of how versatile that card is in many situations you all have been sharing from your experiences. For me even with the auto-reanimators and a lot of token production it is probably even stronger of an addition.
Pact of negation is the catchall many probably should run if you like tapping out every turn in these low to the ground versions of Varina. I see you run it Pokken, but Toc doesn't. I have been pushing for this card for a long time because it stops all of "worst case scenario" kind of plays like a mass exile, grave hate, and also the counterspell backup needed on your game winning turn. It is also really good at stopping your opponent's combo too (when you are tapped out and they feel safe) which shouldn't be overlooked. Worth the tax when it stops the game from ending or a critical play that prevents your deck from functioning as intended.
Curious thoughts on
Altar of Dementia from both of you? Cheap sac outlet that facilitates a lot of these lines being discussed, Altar #3 doesn't add mana but wins in a different way - you can mill out all of your opponents with the right loop (there are several I think), dump your entire deck into your GY if you want to, save your board from an exile effect, and all the other wonderful things a repeatable sac outlet offers. Poxwalkers enables all of that.
