Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Reya]

Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't have any legendary creature with drain effect ? At best we can sacrifice Varina before swinging and recast her for 6 mana. So we will have a doubled Varina effect for the next attack. Or as you said, create infinites bodies with Haakon, Crawler and another body than we can recur with Haakon (If I read correctly too^^).

Yeh I think I was reading comp failing. I don't think it does any of this lol. My brain was really wanting to be charitable and just skipped over some aspects of the card. I don't think it even makes infinite bodies without a legendary 1 drop knight.

Headless Rider was the guy I was thinking of that enables half that stuff. Ratadrabik of Urborg needs legendary stuff. Somehow my brain just...wow. Getting dumb. I thought it copied all zombies I guess. Which is obviously way too good.

If Rata didn't need legendary bodies, oh my....

[Reya]

I saw you had a discussion about the number of 3 drops.

My current list contains 36 creatures:

11 One Drops (including Wayfarer)
11 Two Drops
10 Three Drops
3 Four Drops (including Wonder)
1 Five Drop

Just realized it's nicely curved.

The link for my actual decklist: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina/fr

[pokken]

I saw you had a discussion about the number of 3 drops.

My current list contains 36 creatures:

11 One Drops (including Wayfarer)
11 Two Drops
10 Three Drops
3 Four Drops (including Wonder)
1 Five Drop

Just realized it's nicely curved.

The link for my actual decklist: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina/fr

I don't know if 11/11/10 is nicely curved? It's a problem I have with my list. If you're looking to "curve out" you need a lot more 1s and 2s than 3s, but that's really hard to achieve in commander tribal decks because of quality of cards being so low.

My "curve" is, of things that I almost always want to cast on curve:

16 x 1
10 x 2
13 x 3

Which is ooogly.

That said, EDH decks need to be somewhat biased toward an end game because of the nature of commander midrange non-cedh strategies I guess, but it still creates somewhat problematic sequencing.

That said, I think to tune to the point you always have a 1 drop and a 2 drop and a 3 drop is maybe just going too far? In my experience it has usually been enough to always have a 2 and 3.

My gut instinct is that my list should shave some number of 3s and 4s for more 1s and 2s, maybe aiming for more like 20/15/8? But I might need to cut some lands and play some more goodstuff 1-drops (Sensei's Divining Top and Portent being possibilities)?

[Reya]

I think you are right with that point and I didn't see my curve in that point of view. Anyway I was planning to remove 1 or 2 three drop to add more one drop (zombie attraction and the best one drop available)

[ChocoDude]

Congrats to all here for making it to 100 pages!!! First Commander thread at Nexus to do so. Yeeeeaahh!!!

Anyway, @Reya and @pokken. You two are talking slightly different things. Reya is talking about their creature curve. Pokken is talking about their general curve.

In terms of creature curve I count the following in Pokken's list:

12 1-drops
8 2-drops
8 3-drops
3 4-drops (counting Varina)
1 5-drop

32 total creatures.

Just thought I'd point that out in your discussion.

[ChocoDude]

For @Reya 's list I count the following curve including every card type:

3 0-drops
17 1-drops
16 2-drops
18 3-drops
4 4-drops
5 5-drops
1 6-drops

64 total nonland cards

[toctheyounger]

Congrats to all here for making it to 100 pages!!! First Commander thread at Nexus to do so. Yeeeeaahh!!!

Anyway, @Reya and @pokken. You two are talking slightly different things. Reya is talking about their creature curve. Pokken is talking about their general curve.

In terms of creature curve I count the following in Pokken's list:

12 1-drops
8 2-drops
8 3-drops
3 4-drops (counting Varina)
1 5-drop

32 total creatures.

Just thought I'd point that out in your discussion.

Woe betide any newcomers bringing themselves up to speed reading all of this lol.

But yay we did it!

[ChocoDude]

Looking at my list, I'm running the following non-land (creature) curves:

0-Drops 3
1-Drops 18 (9)
2-Drops 15 (12)
3-Drops 16 (9)
4-Drops 7 (3)
5-Drops 4 (1)
6-Drops 1
7-Drops 1

Nonland cards = 65 (Creatures = 34)

However, I counted Master of Death as a 3-drop and Wonder as a 4-drop, when really they cost me 0 CMC as I never cast them.

[dueba]

Have been making some unfortunate zombie cuts recently, notably graveborn muse and noxious ghoul to accomodate other changes but still am unwilling to cut bone miser and sidisi from 5 cmc just yet .
Currently my curve is as follows resulting in an average cmc of 2.45:

cmc 1 - 20 (10),
cmc 2 - 22 (10),
cmc 3 - 10 (7),
cmc 4 - 5 (5 including varina),
cmc 5 - 7 (3),
cmc 6 - 1,
cmc 7 - 1

decklist: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/afCwfcb2SkG20YEpiWWZIg
also congrats on 100 pages!

[RedCheese]

I will never cut Noxious Ghoul. This guy won me so many matches that is insane. Strongest zombie in the deck IMO. But i probably look at cutting some high end zombies as well like Mikeus and Zombie Oketra. But theya re so cool that is so hard to cut

[plaganegra]

Talking about curves really get's me excited because that I find to be one of the most challenging aspects of deckbuilding. There are a lot of really smart people in this thread so I just want to post my list since it has been a great while since I have updated it here. Anyone who has thoughts on curve, lands, color ratios, or specific selections I am really happy to heard feedback. My goal has always been to build a relatively competitive deck with a lot of flavor and the ability to play in a variety of playgroups (doesn't focus on combo, but includes it if needed/ is fast, but can be played slower too). Zombie Tribal is what got me into EDH forever ago when Thraximundar was my commander and then it evolved into Gisa and Geralf with a lot more flavor and style. Naturally Varina followed and became my mtg obsession. I am really lucky I got into edh before everything RL was prohibitively expensive - I hope the attitude around proxies continues to improve because I think that being able to play the game with all the cards available is more fun, so please don't be put off by some of the expensive things in my list if you can.

My list is far from optimal and I am still relatively new to having Haakon in the deck (just about a year maybe) and he doesn't come out too often. I am doing my absolute best to include all of the "auto-reanimator" zombies in the deck and he facilitates that with the new card poxwalkers. I think some who are looking to round out their curve might consider trying these sorts of packages because of how well they work in a low curve and aggressive Varina deck since you can dump them into the GY very quickly and get them back easily. I have always felt this way of building Varina was very exciting to and aggressive to play. They are hard to deal with and even sometimes even draw out GY hate early in the game and allow for a safer mass reanimate later. If they are not dealt with when my list is running well they easily overwhelm opponents since I don't care if anything dies and it snowballs very quickly. The token generation is also key to the snowballing and the deck can win without any mass-reanimate spells or combos quite well. Playing this style also involves some extra decision making early on in the game, so if you like solving sequencing puzzles this might be the ticket for you lol.

Anyway - the curve is not straightforward since the list is packed with cards that come out for free or can be played for alternate costs etc. A while ago @pokken really helped me to iron out the mana rocks and the manabase in this thread when there was a lot of discussion over not using the 2cmc mana rocks in favor of casting more zombies before Varina hits the table and using the 0cmc rocks (ty it has been consistently working well and really revolutionized the deck I feel). I did my best to group things to make it easier to see how and why I built the deck this way:

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Zombies (26):

1 Lifetime Pass Holder

1 Gravecrawler

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Putrid Imp

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Stitcher's Supplier

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Binding Mummy

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Nightscape Familiar

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Withered Wretch

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Headless Rider

1 Plague Belcher

1 Zombie Master

1 Repository Skaab

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Haakon Package (5):

1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

1 Changeling Outcast

1 Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight

1 Corpse Knight

1 Mirror Entity

Free GY Abilities (5):

1 Master of Death

1 Poxwalkers

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Wonder

GY Tutors (3):

1 Entomb

1 Buried Alive

1 Intuition

Utility (6):

1 Land Tax

1 Skullclamp

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Frantic Search

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Phyrexian Altar

Counterspells (4):

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Flawless Maneuver

Removal (5):

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Toxic Deluge

Reanimate (4):

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Zombie Enchantments (2):

1 Necroduality

1 Tombstone Stairwell

Mana Rocks (5):

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Mox Diamond

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

Lands (34):

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Mana Confluence

1 City of Brass

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Verdant Catacombs

2 Island

2 Plains

4 Swamp

1 Scrubland

1 Tundra

1 Underground Sea

1 Godless Shrine

1 Watery Grave

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Morphic Pool

1 Vault of Champions

Approximate Total Cost:

Attractions:

SPOILER

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• Storybook Ride (3-4-6)
• Haunted House (4-6)
• Roller Coaster (5-6)
• Tunnel of Love (2-6)
• Information Booth (5-6)
• Pick-a-Beeble (3-4-6)
• Ferris Wheel (4-5-6)
• Hall of Mirrors (4-6)
• Merry-Go-round (5-6)
• Swinging Ship (2-6)

Some things I wish I could include:

SPOILER

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• Weathered Wayfarer (removed it when I added Haakon Package, has been good though)
• Balthor, the Defiled (having another option for reanimate that is at instant speed is great)
• Ebondeath, Dracolich (cast from GY trigger)
• Deep Analysis (cast from GY trigger, draw)
• Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver (payed it a while, it was great, an unfortunate sacrifice)
• Kindred Discovery (I can't believe I cut this card but I did to add Skullclamp because of how many ways I can use it)
• Noxious Ghoul (always an unfortunate cut, have never felt I needed this card to win and I never want to actually cast it)
• Lazotep Reaver (two zombies for two mana)
• Agadeem's Awakening (cut it because I have never cast it and always either loot it or CIPT)
• Generous Gift (additional removal)
• Arcane Denial (additional counterspell)
• Teferi's Protection (catchall defensive spell)
• Dread Return (just can't fit everything I want to, intuition lines)

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to comment on my list construction I really appreciate it. I love thinking about intricate zombie deck-building and can really use the distraction in my life right now as times have been really hard in the home life - when that happens I always turn to my biggest safety net and comfort zone - deckbuilding.

Random thought - I really wish they would unban gifts ungiven. I would love to add it to my deck.

[plaganegra]

I saw you had a discussion about the number of 3 drops.

My current list contains 36 creatures:

11 One Drops (including Wayfarer)
11 Two Drops
10 Three Drops
3 Four Drops (including Wonder)
1 Five Drop

Just realized it's nicely curved.

The link for my actual decklist: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina/fr

Sac outlets are definitely very useful when you can bring things back - but how often do you find yourself using the 3cmc sac zombies and in what context?

The only time I really feel like I need a sac outlet is to dodge an exile effect like swords to plowshares and very rarely to loop a combo if I don't win on the spot after a mass re-animate so it would be hard for me to justify using these creatures. I know there are a lot of loops you can do just wondering how you all are using phyrexian ghoul and nantuko husk...

Perhaps one of those can be removed to lower your curve. Also perhaps Liliana's Standard Bearer - I have never used this ability and always discarded it when looting so that indicated to me it wasn't ever needed (also I don't like holding up mana for counterspells or reactive plays until the late game and then I wouldn't probably want this effect) - it seems like more of a combo/loop payoff card to me which is not my playstyle. I have considered it for Haakon, but always felt it was the weakest option I could pick for my style of deck and play.

[ChocoDude]

Hey @plaganegra ,

I took a brief look at your list and noticed a few fixes and have a question or two for you. First thing I noticed was that you have 99 cards listed, so you're missing one. I also think that you could include Corpse Knight in your Haakon package.

How has 34 lands worked out for you?
Same with Necroduality? You mentioned that you're going token heavy so I can see why you'd include Necroduality whereas many of us did not like it so much. As it doesn't do anything right away unless you can get out a creature ASAP.

I have rules question too. Does Poxwalkers ability work with say Master of Death or Silversmote Ghoul being brought out of the graveyard with their abilities? Is that considered "casting"?

Have you thought of running Field of the Dead? You've got a great mana base for it and it's free tokens. I didn't see it in your list.

[RedCheese]

Hello there Bladewhip Transmogrant

[toctheyounger]

Hello there Bladewhip Transmogrant

Got a translation? I'm only seeing a french version and I parlez vous anglais only.

[RedCheese]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ogrant.png

Bladewhip Transmogrant 2

Artifact Creature — Zombie

Bladewhip Transmogrant can't block.

4BB: Return Bladewhip Transmogrant from the graveyard to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. This ability costs 4 less to activate if an opponent controls four or more nonbasic lands.

3/1

[toctheyounger]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... ogrant.png

Bladewhip Transmogrant 2

Artifact Creature — Zombie

Bladewhip Transmogrant can't block.

4BB: Return Bladewhip Transmogrant from the graveyard to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. This ability costs 4 less to activate if an opponent controls four or more nonbasic lands.

3/1

Oh damn, that's like an easy auto include to me. Sweet!

[pzbw7z]

@plaganegra Why Dimir Aqueduct?

[Reya]

Sac outlets are definitely very useful when you can bring things back - but how often do you find yourself using the 3cmc sac zombies and in what context?

Only based on my personnal experience but I often need a sac outlet to sacrifice all my board before a mass reanimation.

Or I don't have access to Altar to drain the table. Or I need to dodge an exile effect. Or I just want to give gas to Headless Rider.

But I actualy play 4 sac outlets. Maybe I can cut one and lower the curve, again ! (There is a very good zombie that has just been spoiled in Brothers War! And there is still "Lifetime" pass Holder).

[yeti1069]

Looking at my list, I'm running the following non-land (creature) curves:

0-Drops 3
1-Drops 18 (9)
2-Drops 15 (12)
3-Drops 16 (9)
4-Drops 7 (3)
5-Drops 4 (1)
6-Drops 1
7-Drops 1

Nonland cards = 65 (Creatures = 34)

However, I counted Master of Death as a 3-drop and Wonder as a 4-drop, when really they cost me 0 CMC as I never cast them.

If you're using Moxfield, you can edit the CMC of cards to reflect use-case like that.

[ChocoDude]

Oops. I misstated those two cards. Archidekt allows for a custom CMC to be assigned to cards, which I use. So actually two of my three 0-drops are actually creatures (Master of Death and Wonder), the other is Pact of Negation. I also list Cyclonic Rift as a 7-drop as I rarely cast it for two.

BTW...my overall CMC is 2.42.

[plaganegra]

Hey @plaganegra ,

I took a brief look at your list and noticed a few fixes and have a question or two for you. First thing I noticed was that you have 99 cards listed, so you're missing one. I also think that you could include Corpse Knight in your Haakon package.

How has 34 lands worked out for you?
Same with Necroduality? You mentioned that you're going token heavy so I can see why you'd include Necroduality whereas many of us did not like it so much. As it doesn't do anything right away unless you can get out a creature ASAP.

I have rules question too. Does Poxwalkers ability work with say Master of Death or Silversmote Ghoul being brought out of the graveyard with their abilities? Is that considered "casting"?

Have you thought of running Field of the Dead? You've got a great mana base for it and it's free tokens. I didn't see it in your list.

To my understanding - current cast triggers for poxwalkers in my list would be...

• Varina herself from the command zone
snapcaster mage
gravecrawler
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge or any knight card with him
Sevinne's Reclamation

(return effects do not "cast")

I don't think I can support another colorless land in my deck TBH - I actually had one more in Ancient Tomb and cut it for city of brass after taking out weathered wayfarer. My deck poops out so many zombies so quickly it is never worth the downside of increasing the chance of drawing two colorless lands in my opener imo to include a field of the dead. I own one but have never been able to find the right case for it in my zombie decks - it currently lives in my mono green Kodama of the East Tree deck lol

I think Necroduality is uniquely amazing when you can easily bring back zombies for free with regularity and ease. It requires a tiny bit of setup (the same setup I am doing with or without the enchantment out) and sequencing, and when it just isn't there I discard it to a loot effect and it doesn't matter.

I have a copy of both of the 3cmc zombie sac outlets and I have really been thinking about adding one, but I just don't find it necessary. I could definitely be wrong though - I wish it was easier to get more games in to properly test everything and streamline. So much is tinkering in a vaccuum based on intuition built up from a lot of play experience which can be limiting that's why I asked about it.

I have found 35 lands in my deck to be just fine with the lower curve and the fast mana artifacts. I actually just went to 34 after lowering the curve even more to what it is now and cut agadeem's awakening because I have never cast the spell half and it's been in my list since it came out. That could be my playstyle or me just being a terrible magic player I am not sure rofl.

Upon closer look, Corpse Knight IS IN FACT a knight lol (in the dang name /facepalm). Thank you I missed it when I was trying to separate the list out to make it more legible.

@pzbw7z I have always kept one bounce land in because in my playgroup there seems to be a lot of effects that let everyone go grab any land they want and I like to ramp lol. It also feels a little better with 34 lands in the mix. This definitely might not be optimal - what would you replace it with that doesnt hurt the color production?

FYI right now this list is totally on paper and is about 90% the same as what I have been playing for about a year. I have not yet tested poxwalkers or lifetime pass holder.

I couldn't be MORE excited to see another low cmc zombie that we can recur from the GY, although too bad it doesn't count as a cast trigger for poxwalkers either. I certainly will not be complaining at all - the new card slots right into and bolsters my list a lot!

[pokken]

Wow the Bladewhip Transmogrant is really good. It can enable infinite combo with just phyrexian altar and something that makes an extra body like tormod which is nice. And just a nice solid 2 cmc zombie. Exciting stuff.

[plaganegra]

If you're using Moxfield, you can edit the CMC of cards to reflect use-case like that.

Thanks I had no clue you could do this! This really helps to see the deck construction much more clearly and is really helping me to keep refining my build.

In general what do we think is an appropriate % chance to cast Varina on curve? What should I be shooting for without increasing the risk of flooding too much? Looking at 4cmc Moxfield % chance to cast on curve statistic in particular.

Still editing my list and tweaking things. I will just keep editing in moxfield to make it easier to see. Thanks!
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/808_GkKgUUOKXXP3_SbQDA

[pzbw7z]

Haha I am losing my mind trying to find the missing card - my best guess was that nexus is not counting Varina in the total (is this true?) - otherwise I don't know it was late lol. I checked everything several times and went cross eyed XD (edit - I pasted it into moxfield and I can confirm Nexus is accurately not including Varina in the deck stats)

Varina counts; it's "Lifetime" Pass Holder that isn't counting. Remove the double quotes - Lifetime Pass Holder - and it will count and still display.

Plagnegra's Deck

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Plagnegra's Deck

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Zombies (26):

1 Lifetime Pass Holder

1 Gravecrawler

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Putrid Imp

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Stitcher's Supplier

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Binding Mummy

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Nightscape Familiar

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Withered Wretch

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Headless Rider

1 Plague Belcher

1 Zombie Master

1 Repository Skaab

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Haakon Package (5):

1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

1 Changeling Outcast

1 Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight

1 Corpse Knight

1 Mirror Entity

Free GY Abilities (5):

1 Master of Death

1 Poxwalkers

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Wonder

GY Tutors (3):

1 Entomb

1 Buried Alive

1 Intuition

Utility (6):

1 Land Tax

1 Skullclamp

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Frantic Search

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Phyrexian Altar

Counterspells (4):

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Flawless Maneuver

Removal (5):

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Toxic Deluge

Reanimate (4):

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Zombie Enchantments (2):

1 Necroduality

1 Tombstone Stairwell

Mana Rocks (5):

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Mox Diamond

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

Lands (34):

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Mana Confluence

1 City of Brass

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Verdant Catacombs

2 Island

2 Plains

4 Swamp

1 Scrubland

1 Tundra

1 Underground Sea

1 Godless Shrine

1 Watery Grave

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Morphic Pool

1 Vault of Champions

Approximate Total Cost:

@pzbw7z I have always kept one bounce land in because in my playgroup there seems to be a lot of effects that let everyone go grab any land they want and I like to ramp lol. It also feels a little better with 34 lands in the mix. This definitely might not be optimal - what would you replace it with that doesnt hurt the color production?

I was just curious; you have all of the good stuff and . . . Dimir Aqueduct. I'm not criticizing. Do you just mulligan an opening hand with it?

Underground River would be a plug in replacement if you were so inclined. One could play Raffine's Tower in that slot too.

The bounce lands can be abused, make no mistake, but I don't see any enablers.