Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

As a deck with a high creature count and some high-value creatures - including at least one with a back-breaking EtB ability, does Tortured Existence make sense?

It is not the worst option for us. especially since we can pitch cards like Gravecrawler, Master of Death and others that we don't mind in the GY.

Or Grave Scrabbler!

I'm wondering if Tortured Existence or Phyrexian Reclamation is the better choice and if either is really worth a slot. I've got a copy of Reclamation currently running with Prosper, I could give it a try I suppose. The other is under a buck so I might ask about it; I'm afraid the answer will be to look in the bulk boxes.

We do have effects that put creatures back on the library, e.g. Unholy Grotto or Lord of the Undead, as well as mass reanimation, so maybe an enchantment of this type is superfluous.

[Eburon]

I'm wondering if Tortured Existence or Phyrexian Reclamation is the better choice and if either is really worth a slot. I've got a copy of Reclamation currently running with Prosper, I could give it a try I suppose. The other is under a buck so I might ask about it; I'm afraid the answer will be to look in the bulk boxes.

We do have effects that put creatures back on the library, e.g. Unholy Grotto or Lord of the Undead, as well as mass reanimation, so maybe an enchantment of this type is superfluous.

To your first point. If you have enough creatures you actively want in your yard, I would go with Tortured Existence. The advantage of Phyrexian Reclamation is that it becomes card advantage.

I do think we have plenty of effects to recur creatures. On top of that, several of us are on Apprentice Necromancer as well. I don't think either Enchantment is needed, but they wouldn't be out of place either. If you see a lot of mass removal in your meta, the enchantments do get better (especially Reclamation) since you want that redundancy. I see them as meta-dependent options. Maybe your meta dictates more recursion vs more interaction?

[toctheyounger]

The other salient point is that Tortured Existence has really strong synergy with Tormod, the Desecrator. Presumably you could draw your deck out with things like Kindred Discovery or Skullclamp and Ashnod's Altar.

I don't think either is a requirement, but this is worth noting.

[pokken]

I ultimately cut tortured existence. Just too durdly. I don't like a lot of value enchantments, mostly rather play creatures. And only the most obscene enchantments like kindred and land tax.

[toctheyounger]

I ultimately cut tortured existence. Just too durdly. I don't like a lot of value enchantments, mostly rather play creatures. And only the most obscene enchantments like kindred and land tax.

Generally agreed. Kindred is uniquely strong in the most obscene ways so it gets a pass but I think even Tax, you're likely to get to a point where your suite of lands doesn't support it enough I'd say. Ultimately we're in a unique position somewhat whereby we can generate game winning advantage just for having creatures in play swinging. The more the better and we don't really need much tangential support to maximize that.

[pzbw7z]

How much do you guys like Kindred Discovery as compared to Teferi's Ageless Insight? Is the former worth twelve times the price of the latter? And an additional mana?

I feel as if I need more card draw but I'm not keen on adding another high-CMC enchantment. Insight is high enough for concern as the cut for it will likely be a lower-CMC card - probably Vindicate.

Perhaps I should just suck it up and find a copy of Rhystic Study.

[yeti1069]

So...this is better than Varina in almost every way, right? It's cheaper, has evasion, protection, buffs instead of gaining life (debatable which is better), and doesn't care about creature type. At the very least, strong consideration for the deck, despite being off theme, right?

[pzbw7z]

So...this is better than Varina in almost every way, right? It's cheaper, has evasion, protection, buffs instead of gaining life (debatable which is better), and doesn't care about creature type. At the very least, strong consideration for the deck, despite being off theme, right?

Raffine, Scheming Seer

If one had no "Zombies matter" cards, perhaps. I count 17 - 18 including Cavern of Souls, I mean what else am I going to choose? Sphinx? Demon? - in my list.

[Eburon]

So...this is better than Varina in almost every way, right? It's cheaper, has evasion, protection, buffs instead of gaining life (debatable which is better), and doesn't care about creature type. At the very least, strong consideration for the deck, despite being off theme, right?

Raffine is a great card. That said, don't underestimate Varina's activated ability. Being able to drop one or more tokens on the board has saved my butt more than once.

[Eburon]

How much do you guys like Kindred Discovery as compared to Teferi's Ageless Insight? Is the former worth twelve times the price of the latter? And an additional mana?

Hard Yes on Discovery over Insight. Insight needs other card draw to do work while Discovery does work on it's own without relying on other card draw effects.

[pokken]

Giving up Patriarch's Bidding for Raffine, Scheming Seer is a hard pass for me. And the lifegain from varina is super underrated.

There's also the pattern where they can deny your card draw by killing the connive target. ouch

(there's also the Gravecrawler combo to think about, and a bunch of other zombie matter things that are just buried in there)

[Eburon]

I concur with @pokken . If anything, Raffine could be a flex addition to be tested for us. If you go with Raffine as a commander you are building a very different deck than what we currently have.

[toctheyounger]

I think its a fine card in its own right, but probably lends itself to a more aggressive archetype that wouldn't necessarily suit here. Plus there's no real inclusions here that benefit from going big with counters. We could add Noosegraf Mob but ehhh.

Theres similarities in some ways but I think you want Varina if you're wanting that tribal bent and a more midrange or combo style. And yeah incidental life gain isn't nothing. I've definitely noticed in grindy games it will keep you top of the pack for longer.

[pokken]

Had a pretty good game tonight with my Varina build. I was really getting there and wound up accidentally giving Mairsil, the Pretender the game by failing to remember I could Binding Mummy mairsil to stop her combo at one point, and trying to draw into interaction instead. I coulda just made a zombie and stopped it

The deck really just runs nicely and has so many avenues to go. I got to see Crypt of Agadeem tap for 7 or so which was fun to see.

[Falkenbach]

What are you guys opinion about Yawgmoth's Will in the Varina List?
Ofcourse nog considering the price..

[pokken]

What are you guys opinion about Yawgmoth's Will in the Varina List?
Ofcourse nog considering the price..

It can be real good but its exile rider presents some sequencing problems. I'd rather just play more zombies

[pzbw7z]

What are you guys opinion about Yawgmoth's Will in the Varina List?
Ofcourse nog considering the price..

Since it's only for a turn, I'd say it's downside isn't a big problem. But, since we have other ways of recurring most things from the graveyard I'm not sure it's a solid include on its own merits; given the price, I'd say forget about it!

Prosper, however, would love a copy.

[Falkenbach]

A friend of mine is gonna get rid of him and i have trade to offer, and I ve always been a fan of Yawgmoth's will thats why i am asking
Since its reserved list I don't think it will do any harms having one in my collection

[toctheyounger]

Yeah seems like a good investment for sure. If you can spring for it won't ever go down in price significantly and could easily rise in price. Plus its the ultimate Yawgmoth flex!

That said I don't really think this is the deck for it. As good as it is in the right place I actually don't think we need it here. We've got enough utility to be able to recur most of our key pieces, and in terms of a game finishing turn we've got a vast array of options in which Will is more superfluous than anything. I think itd probably shine more in a mono black or grixis shell, where there's less option to recur rocks and enchantments and you're wanting to go off in one turn with big value. Idk, just seems not as efficient as not having it in the list to me.

[Eburon]

Yawgmoth's Will excels in combo decks, especially those that run rituals and cheap cantrips. It does not do so well in your average zombie themed Varina build since there is only so much you can recur in a given turn with it.

[Eburon]

It may not be strong enough in the end, but I am intrigued:

https://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/a-little-chat/

*edit: image would not display

[Eburon]

Interesting options for us.

[pokken]

Cut Your Losses feels like a pretty solid thing to do in my Varina, Lich Queen deck. Almost one card hasted Hermit Druid, flash back Sevinne's Reclamation and win the game.

Looking forward to trying that out -- the odds of hitting a combo feels very, very high. If you run Dread Return might even be able to just GG right there.'

--

Things that win:

Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar + Sevinne's Reclamation

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Sevinne's Reclamation + Phyrexian Altar + any knight

Repository Skaab + Dread Return + 3 creatures on board (or Gravecrawler + Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in bin)


Gonna have to noodle on that but I think it's pretty solid.

[Arebennian]

Sorcery speed means that you would need the 5 mana to cast sevinne's reclamation too to avoid waiting for your turn to come around again..

What are you looping with Dread Return? Don't you run out of creatures / mana to recast them?

[pokken]

Sorcery speed means that you would need the 5 mana to cast sevinne's reclamation too to avoid waiting for your turn to come around again..

What are you looping with Dread Return? Don't you run out of creatures / mana to recast them?

If you Dread Return a Repository Skaab with enough mana it's gg. 11 mana is pretty achievable I think as a wincon?

(flash back dread return get Living Death and the game is over with 75 cards in your bin, you'll Gary for lethal)

It is a bit womboey but there're a lot of ways to explode to 11 mana in one turn, and having a single card win the game is potentially really good. If you have an Altar already, it makes a 2 card combo too.