Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pzbw7z]

Well it's good to see the Battlebond lands finally getting a reprint in the upcoming Commander Legends D&D set out in June. I've yet to pick up any of the allied colors for my EDH decks due to $$$.

I've got Bountiful Promenade in another deck and Vault of Champions in Varina; Prosper desperately wants Luxury Suite and Varina wouldn't mind having Morphic Pool.

Those first two are still reasonable-ish; the last two are currently rather steep-ish, so a reprint is very welcome.

[ChocoDude]

Yeah, I've mapped it out and I'd like to get (1) Luxury Suite, (3) Bountiful Promenades, (2) Morphic Pools, (3) Sea of Clouds, and (1) Spire Garden. Now I wait.

[pzbw7z]

Do those of you who rely at least in part on win-con combinations have any regard for Tainted Pact as a means of finding interaction?

[pokken]

Do those of you who rely at least in part on win-con combinations have any regard for Tainted Pact as a means of finding interaction?

I don't want to give up playing basics and I don't ever want to exile large chunks of my deck.

[Eburon]

I am excited to see all of this discussion. I am noticing that my deck too often is a tad slow and needs a little more oomph out of the gates. I am looking to making some cuts to facilitate that.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Lands

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Flooded Strand

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

2 Island

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Mana Confluence

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Phyrexian Tower

2 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Scalding Tarn

4 Swamp

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Watery Grave

1 Windswept Heath

Ramp

1 Arcane Signet

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Expedition Map

1 Phyrexian Altar

1 Sol Ring

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Weathered Wayfarer

Zombies

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Binding Mummy

1 Bone Miser

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Corpse Knight

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Gravecrawler

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Headless Rider

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Noxious Ghoul

1 Plague Belcher

1 Relentless Dead

1 Repository Skaab

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Tainted Adversary

1 Undead Augur

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wayward Servant

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Withered Wretch

1 Zombie Master

Removal

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Fracture

1 Generous Gift

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Toxic Deluge

Utility / Card Draw

1 Agadeem's Awakening

1 Archfiend of Ifnir

1 Empty the Laboratory

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Kindred Discovery

1 Liliana, Untouched by Death

1 Living Death

1 Mystic Remora

1 Pact of Negation

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Plumb the Forbidden

1 Rhystic Study

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Skullclamp

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Swan Song

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Zombie Apocalypse

1 Zombie Infestation

Approximate Total Cost:

Cards currently on the cutting block:
Archfiend of Ifnir (too slow)
Apprentice Necromancer (ability can be useful. the best thing about it is that it is a 2-drop with utility)
Sidisi, Undead Vizier (If it wasn't a zombie, I would likely not play her)
Undead Warchief (torn on this one. the reducer and pump are useful, but he is slow at 4 cmc)
Generous Gift (looking at Vanishing Verse)
Empty the Laboratory (more card draw?)

Possible adds:
Lord of the Accursed
Bladestitched Skaab
Putrid Imp
...

Does anyone have feedback or suggestions?

PS: I am considering adding some of the NEO channel lands instead of basics.

[pokken]

I think Putrid Imp is a slam dunk if you are running Lazotep Chancellor and Ashnod's Altar and Skullclamp.

I like your deck, it's very close to mine I think you could stand to trim the removal package a bit and add more 1 and 2 drop zombies.

I would 100% cut a removal spell for Murderous Rider // Swift End - that card is pure gasoline.

I have really liked Universal Automaton Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Changeling Outcast.

I have, generally, found Chain of Vapor to be the best single removal spell. Most of the time what removal is for is end step bounce graveyard hate/stax piece that's stopping us from going off, and untap and win.

[toctheyounger]

Do those of you who rely at least in part on win-con combinations have any regard for Tainted Pact as a means of finding interaction?

I don't want to give up playing basics and I don't ever want to exile large chunks of my deck.

I'm here too. I don't think our win cons are compact enough in any way to justify Pact, and given it counts basics I'm nowhere near cashed up enough to manage that sort of land base.

I am excited to see all of this discussion. I am noticing that my deck too often is a tad slow and needs a little more oomph out of the gates. I am looking to making some cuts to facilitate that.
Does anyone have feedback or suggestions?

PS: I am considering adding some of the NEO channel lands instead of basics.

I think the channel lands are pretty justifiable. The black variant is one of the cheaper and probably fits us quite well. The blue is fairly expensive right now, so I can only assume it's important in the standard meta or what have you, but it's a good fit too, I'd try to find room for both. The white isn't awful, but it's probably one to squeeze in only if you find you have the space.

As for suggested cuts, how sold are you on Graveborn Muse?

I think Putrid Imp is a slam dunk if you are running Lazotep Chancellor and Ashnod's Altar and Skullclamp.

I like your deck, it's very close to mine I think you could stand to trim the removal package a bit and add more 1 and 2 drop zombies.

I would 100% cut a removal spell for Murderous Rider // Swift End - that card is pure gasoline.

I have really liked Universal Automaton Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Changeling Outcast.

I have, generally, found Chain of Vapor to be the best single removal spell. Most of the time what removal is for is end step bounce graveyard hate/stax piece that's stopping us from going off, and untap and win.

Man, that is some hella cedh tech right there. Chain is a good card, I personally just don't think I'm there in terms of removal. My deck definitely drives more like an adaptive midrange rather than a proactive combo, and that's probably curve related more than anything. I think I'm finally at the point where Mike and maybe Sidisi have to go for expediency, I just need more early zombie gas. I was wondering about Universal Automaton myself. I like Changeling Outcast more for its evasion, but the robot is castable at any point ever, which isn't nothing.

Can I ask what it is that appeals about the adventure zombies? I've had Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight in my list before, and it's fine but nothing stellar. I just don't think I get Murderous Rider // Swift End at all. The shuffle is fine, but nothing we can really bank on for value.

[Eburon]

The reasons in favor of Chain of Vapor are the reasons to run Otawara. On top of that, you can tutor Otawara with Weathered Wayfarer.

[pokken]

I've had Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight in my list before, and it's fine but nothing stellar. I just don't think I get Murderous Rider // Swift End at all. The shuffle is fine, but nothing we can really bank on for value.

Foulmire combos with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

Murderous rider is just so cool, a removal spell that becomes an extra zombie later. It's not amazing or anything but doing double duties on being a 3-drop that curves into Varina and a removal spell is pretty flexible.

[toctheyounger]

I've had Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight in my list before, and it's fine but nothing stellar. I just don't think I get Murderous Rider // Swift End at all. The shuffle is fine, but nothing we can really bank on for value.

Foulmire combos with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

Murderous rider is just so cool, a removal spell that becomes an extra zombie later. It's not amazing or anything but doing double duties on being a 3-drop that curves into Varina and a removal spell is pretty flexible.

Fair enough. Not being on the Haakon game I'm happy to pass on the 1 drop, and the 3 drop just doesn't seem amazing enough to justify the inclusion in my list rn.

[pokken]

the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge train is so legit. just so much inevitability of never running out of Corpse Knight and Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer and so on.

Even not on a combo list, the Buried Alive for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight and Liliana's Standard Bearer feels like a pretty absurd value package.

[toctheyounger]

the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge train is so legit. just so much inevitability of never running out of Corpse Knight and Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer and so on.

Even not on a combo list, the Buried Alive for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight and Liliana's Standard Bearer feels like a pretty absurd value package.

It does seem like as a minimum a nice way of baking some redundancy into a boardstate, and as a maximum just a good way of going off. I might try and track down a copy and see how I get on.

[pzbw7z]

the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge train is so legit. just so much inevitability of never running out of Corpse Knight and Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer and so on.

Even not on a combo list, the Buried Alive for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight and Liliana's Standard Bearer feels like a pretty absurd value package.

It does seem like as a minimum a nice way of baking some redundancy into a boardstate, and as a maximum just a good way of going off. I might try and track down a copy and see how I get on.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight, Foulmire Knight and Phyrexian Altar = GG. And not that far fetched with Buried Alive (which I don't yet have).

If you need a copy of Haakan, we could do a deal, I've got three extra - which no one else seems to want. .

[toctheyounger]

the Haakon, Stromgald Scourge train is so legit. just so much inevitability of never running out of Corpse Knight and Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer and so on.

Even not on a combo list, the Buried Alive for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight and Liliana's Standard Bearer feels like a pretty absurd value package.

It does seem like as a minimum a nice way of baking some redundancy into a boardstate, and as a maximum just a good way of going off. I might try and track down a copy and see how I get on.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight, Foulmire Knight and Phyrexian Altar = GG. And not that far fetched with Buried Alive (which I don't yet have).

If you need a copy of Haakan, we could do a deal, I've got three extra - which no one else seems to want. .

I appreciate that, but my LGS has a copy and I don't know if you wanna send it as far as New Zealand. It's all good! I'm pretty sure I can track down Buried Alive too.

[pzbw7z]

It does seem like as a minimum a nice way of baking some redundancy into a boardstate, and as a maximum just a good way of going off. I might try and track down a copy and see how I get on.

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, Corpse Knight, Foulmire Knight and Phyrexian Altar = GG. And not that far fetched with Buried Alive (which I don't yet have).

If you need a copy of Haakan, we could do a deal, I've got three extra - which no one else seems to want. .

I appreciate that, but my LGS has a copy and I don't know if you wanna send it as far as New Zealand. It's all good! I'm pretty sure I can track down Buried Alive too.

I suspected as much. It's not an expensive card by any means, not worth the postage to mail any distance. Buried Alive isn't either. I do need to scrounge up a copy of the later, it just seems like too much fun

[toctheyounger]

Buried Alive does look fun, I think I've come around on it myself. Originally I lambasted it as slow and inefficient, but I've lost a couple games recently that I was wanting for just one piece either in hand or yard, so...I think it kinda fits. It's nowhere near as versatile as Entomb but it's also 1/4 the price and most of what we need is critters anyway, so I think it could do some good.

As an aside I got a couple games in today, and came away with a win. One of them was a bit weird with at least one early scoop, which always frustrates me - I get it if you're out, but being gone from the game in an instant just irrevocably changes the table dynamics, it's a real annoyance to me. I had a good win against Archelos, Lagoon Mystic stax, Satsuki, the Living Lore enchantress and Kami of the Crescent Moon though. Archelos went hard into lockdown, and I wasn't sure I could pull it off, but I got there nicely. Struggled through a Nether Void and Desolation that seemed to affect the rest of the board a lot more than it did me. I guess it's nice, once you've got some creatures in play you have everything you need to start digging for a result.

I was lucky in being able to drop aristocrats in the bin and draw myself into a Patriarch's Bidding, and after a few turn cycles of casting one spell a turn for an inflated cost and sacrificing a land I drew into Repository Skaab too. I only just managed to pull it all off, and it Bidding loop had to wait a full turn after casting Phyrexian Altar so I think I was really lucky it didn't get got in the meantime, but with some tidy lines and literally tapping everything in play and sacrificing all of my board I just managed to afford Bidding for 6bb, demonstrate the loop and clean up.

I gotta say I quite like trying to play through some board control. I think it's an important part of the format, and people should use it more, but it was also nice to note that at least part of what this deck does isn't really impeded by at least some of the nastier stuff that crops up.

[pzbw7z]

Buried Alive would not appeal without Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, I think, or some other way to exploit the effect. Entomb is an instant and one-mana, but we don't typically run much to get back non-creatures. Maybe it's worth it for Phyrexian Altar sometimes, with Sevinne's Reclamation, but generally creatures are the thing. Outside of possibly Gray Merchant of Asphodel, I'm not sure any single creature merits that sort of expenditure of resources.

There are corner cases, I'm sure. Many Commanders make me wish I had Fleshbag Marauder available but that only works if that player has no other creatures in play - but it's glorious when it does work!. Moreover, even with Entomb, we need a means to cast or return to hand so the instant value is partly diluted.

I'm fine with running Zombies that have limited applications because they can be binned and retrieved later, but non-creature spells need to be widely relevant for my tastes.

[pokken]

Buried Alive for Gravecrawler and any 2 big fats is probably fine as it combos with any mass reanimation spell and also gives you gravecrawler

I would be running it if I didn't own Intuition and wanted more tutor effects.

[Eburon]

My take on Buried Alive is that unless it wins you the game after you cast it, it is usually not worth running. You are telegraphing to your opponent what you are doing. Entomb and even Unmarked Grave are likely more efficient graveyard tutors (unless you run a combo package to abuse Buried Alive).

[pokken]

My take on Buried Alive is that unless it wins you the game after you cast it, it is usually not worth running. You are telegraphing to your opponent what you are doing. Entomb and even Unmarked Grave are likely more efficient graveyard tutors (unless you run a combo package to abuse Buried Alive).

A lot more things win the game after a buried/intuition than after a single target graveyard tutor though, to be fair.

for example: a buried alive is likely to combo with any mass reanimation spell as a wincon (since you go Mikaeus, the Unhallowed Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Carrion Feeder and that can be pretty lethal).

[Eburon]

A lot more things win the game after a buried/intuition than after a single target graveyard tutor though, to be fair.

I 100% agree with that. However, a single target tutor might not signal your combo like Buried Alive does. That said, if you can resolve a Buried Alive and take advantage of it, it is a lot stronger. The only drawback is that it can only tutor creatures to the yard. I think Intuition is a lot stronger than Buried Alive.

[toctheyounger]

My take on Buried Alive is that unless it wins you the game after you cast it, it is usually not worth running. You are telegraphing to your opponent what you are doing. Entomb and even Unmarked Grave are likely more efficient graveyard tutors (unless you run a combo package to abuse Buried Alive).

A lot more things win the game after a buried/intuition than after a single target graveyard tutor though, to be fair.

for example: a buried alive is likely to combo with any mass reanimation spell as a wincon (since you go Mikaeus, the Unhallowed Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Carrion Feeder and that can be pretty lethal).

Intuition is easily stronger for obvious reasons. Being able to present a pile in which it doesn't matter which the opponents picks, you can go off either way, is nine time out of ten fait accompli. I've definitely got eyes peeled for a copy turning up somewhere, but I'm under no illusions that it's likely to not happen any time soon, and is likely to be out of my price range if it does happen. You never know though.

As far as Buried Alive goes, I think in my current list it's probably just a value play to follow up with mass reanimation at best, or something to load your graveyard with, with Repository Skaab . Once you're on a Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package, or running Liliana, Untouched by Death I think you're in a way better place to actually make it go further with some degree of immediacy, which makes it a more viable include. So probably at the moment with the cards I have available to me right now it's probably not stellar, but might be worth picking up into the future.

[Eburon]

Had a fun game yesterday vs Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Feather, the Redeemed and Vega, the Watcher.

Lurrus got out to a fast start with an early Razaketh. Fortunately, Feather had the perfect response flashing in Aven Mindcensor. I had some early pressure with Gravecrawler, Withered Wretch and Wayward Servant. After being denied the early win, Lurrus followed up with a Toxic Deluge and Soul-Guide Lantern. Feather got stuck on mana and Vega slowly started taking over the game through continuous card draw (Rhystic Study and Mystic Remora early on).

Mid-game, I managed to politically stay in the game by removing Rhystic Study and clearing the board with Deluge. Repository Skaab recurred an Anguished Unmaking to deal with an Archmage Emeritus. Lurrus kept recurring the Lantern (which fortunately also hurt Vega). Feather slowly started getting into the game at this point, but had several cantrips shut down before finally sticking an Aria of Flame. At this point, Vega was dangerously low on life, but managed to stick a Mind's Dilation. This allowed Vega to pull further ahead until I managed to Fracture the Mind's Dilation and slowly build a small board presence with Varina.

At this point, Feather tried to link cantrips, but was stopped, once again, in it's tracks by countermagic from Vega. Vega got taken out by Aria of Flame after running out of counterspells. This put Sidisi and Headless Rider in my yard. Lurrus tried casting The Meathook Massacre to attempt the Leonin-Relic Warder/Animate Dead loop, but I had a Fierce Guardianship to save myself. On my turn, I cast Phyrexian Altar into Living Death, Sidisi's Exploit found Swan Song. I sac my board to Altar (creating tokens with Wilhelt and Headless Rider), cast Zombie Apocalypse, cleaning up Lurrus' humans from Living Death. get back Zombie Apocalypse with Repository Skaab and tutoring Gary with Sidisi. From there, I repeated this loop to drain my opponents.

I was really happy with the resilience coming back from multiple Soul-Guide Lantern activations and being able to influence the game at strategic turning points. Repository Skaab put in some good work to recur some interaction pieces to stay in the game.

[pzbw7z]

As a deck with a high creature count and some high-value creatures - including at least one with a back-breaking EtB ability, does Tortured Existence make sense?

[Eburon]

It is not the worst option for us. especially since we can pitch cards like Gravecrawler, Master of Death and others that we don't mind in the GY.