Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

I just disagree with your assessment. Including expedition map and arcane signet as white sources you're only around 85% likely to see a white source in your first 10 cards.

You're even worse off for blue and many of your safety plays for fixing mana are blue and white.

I hope that doesn't come off condescending at all - most people are not as ocd about manabases as me.

I'd pretty strongly recommend cutting one or two basics, hall and possibly one other nonfixing lands for better fixing as you can.

You've got to trust your experience to an extent but the best advice I can give is to pay serious attention to how often color shortages affect your game.

[toctheyounger]

I just disagree with your assessment. Including expedition map and arcane signet as white sources you're only around 85% likely to see a white source in your first 10 cards.

You're even worse off for blue and many of your safety plays for fixing mana are blue and white.

I hope that doesn't come off condescending at all - most people are not as ocd about manabases as me.

I'd pretty strongly recommend cutting one or two basics, hall and possibly one other nonfixing lands for better fixing as you can.

You've got to trust your experience to an extent but the best advice I can give is to pay serious attention to how often color shortages affect your game.

Nah I totally get it. I think we're coming from different angles here. You have what I'd consider a top deck land base to apply here, I'm more shoestring, hustling to put together something that works.

Truth be told I've been really happy with the lands of late, I've had few issues if any. Maybe it's been luck or maybe its improved. Perhaps its having 1.5 fetches and the map and the wayfarer(definitely those), but its been reliable enough. It could be more if I had a spare 100 for off colors from MH2 (ABURs would be nice too but let's be realistic), but what can you do, kids are expensive and inflation is real. But yeah its been good enough that I've got the room for some colorless and some utility.

For me lately the biggest thing has been getting bodies in early. The fix for that is more and cheaper bodies, so that's my aim for now.

[pokken]

Nah I totally get it. I think we're coming from different angles here. You have what I'd consider a top deck land base to apply here, I'm more shoestring, hustling to put together something that works.

Truth be told I've been really happy with the lands of late, I've had few issues if any. Maybe it's been luck or maybe its improved. Perhaps its having 1.5 fetches and the map and the wayfarer(definitely those), but its been reliable enough. It could be more if I had a spare 100 for off colors from MH2 (ABURs would be nice too but let's be realistic), but what can you do, kids are expensive and inflation is real. But yeah its been good enough that I've got the room for some colorless and some utility.

For me lately the biggest thing has been getting bodies in early. The fix for that is more and cheaper bodies, so that's my aim for now.

So yeah I am on more fetchlands to get my white/blue counts closer to 20 (than 15-ish) but I think you could make a couple more conservative choices and probably be better off for it. Even without cramming on fetchlands (which tbh, now is a good time to do what you gotta do to grab a few) you can add a few things like Darkwater Catacombs and probably another couple I am not thinking of here or there. I'd consider Dimir Aqueduct and Orzhov Basilica in your build as well, while they have some risks they add virtual lands and are really nice in non-fetch decks that have a high untapped count like you do (they get much worse in decks playing a lot of taplands).

Thinking about it, it makes me really irked that City of Brass Reflecting Pool Forbidden Orchard and Mana Confluence have gotten so stupidly expensive Those used to be budget ways to fix your fixing.

If Hall works for you that's awesome but I think you'd have a better deck if you subbed it for a UB or WB dual most likely. You've got lots of endgame lands already! At least, that's my thinking.

[Eburon]

Hall is not a terrible option if you run enough enchantments to justify it. That said, I ran it for a while and never took advantage of it.

I am pretty excited about the WUB "Triome" as @toctheyounger mentioned. A fetchable tri-color land seems good (even when it enters tapped).

[pokken]

I hate tap lands and I might even try the triome. This deck really likes color fixing.

[pzbw7z]

So, I've no idea who "Raffine" is, but his/her/their tower seems like a solid add - as others have already suggested - if a possible flavor-fail. It seems good especially for those of us who lack ABU duals to search up.

Raffine's Tower

[pzbw7z]

Tonight I drew Tombstone Stairwell in my opener and wound up pitching it. I still haven't gotten it into play. Bummer.

The game went well nonetheless. Rooftop Storm showed up and I had Sidisi, Undead Vizier to go get Liliana, the Last Hope and cast everything out of the graveyard, including Corpse Knight, Shepherd of Rot and Sidisi (she had exploited herself before). I used the latter to tutor up Gray Merchant of Asphodel and dropped it for 11. The next turn Varina made some Zombies plus one card cast from hand for Knight triggers and a big tap from Shepherd wrapped things up.

[pzbw7z]

Here's a shout out to Unholy Grotto! In the last few days, I've managed to rinse and repeat Gray Merchant of Asphodel and - almost even more fun - Fleshbag Marauder.

Marauder was on the block for a while, but I just don't think I can cut him. Taking out Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant was just priceless! Especially after the poor kid had used Jeweled Lotus to cast him!

[pzbw7z]

Herald's Horn is an interesting card I just came across on FB. My list has 32 Zombies, so the peek ability would hit often. 19 of those Zombies that would benefit from the cost reduction. Moreover, my list has 7 fetches (I'm working - slowly - on getting the rest) so the information would occasionally be useful for deck resetting.

Still, 3-mana means a dead turn and I don't know that there's anything I'd cut for it, you know?

[plaganegra]

Herald's Horn is an interesting card I just came across on FB. My list has 32 Zombies, so the peek ability would hit often. 19 of those Zombies that would benefit from the cost reduction. Moreover, my list has 7 fetches (I'm working - slowly - on getting the rest) so the information would occasionally be useful for deck resetting.

Still, 3-mana means a dead turn and I don't know that there's anything I'd cut for it, you know?

I have run this quite a bit. The discount is pretty good, and it is a great budget "rock" with an upside. I have since replaced it with non-budget friendly options to help the pace of my gameplay.

[plaganegra]

Hey yall!

So with the announcement a while ago about some cards from the un-sets becoming commander legal, I thought I would finally sit down and start thinking if there are any zombie cards I need to grab now. I have collected a couple that I really love and think would be fantastic additions to the format and very fun in Summon the Pack and Over My Dead Bodies.

Any others that people can think of that would be good for zombie decks?

[Wallycaine]

Hey yall!

So with the announcement a while ago about some cards from the un-sets becoming commander legal, I thought I would finally sit down and start thinking if there are any zombie cards I need to grab now. I have collected a couple that I really love and think would be fantastic additions to the format and very fun in Summon the Pack and Over My Dead Bodies.

Any others that people can think of that would be good for zombie decks?

Worth noting that the un-sets being legal is a "going forward" thing, and that will not (currently) make previous silver bordered cards legal. Additionally, if they *were* to make silver bordered cards legal, it would only be the ones that 'work' within the normal rules structure. So Summon the Pack and Over My Dead Bodies are unlikely to make the cut (though obviously you should feel free to check with playgroups if they'd allow them).

[plaganegra]

@Wallycaine

The speculation I was referring to is that some of the previous silver bordered cards could be getting the black border treatment. Ive heard that speculation making the rounds quite a bit. I think it stemmed from an example that wotc gave when explaining the idea with the balloon game.

Obviously everything unreleased and unspoiled from unfinity (haha) is unconfirmed and purely unscientific in nature.

So let's have some fun and see if there are any cool cards from previous un-sets that we would like to see become legal to play with.

Personally I think over my dead bodies would be a really fun addition to the game and I would totally run it in my zombie deck. But obviously there might be some more plausible options lol

[pzbw7z]

Do you know what's better than having Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Unholy Grotto and a sacrifice outlet in play?

Answer

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Having Gary, Grotto, Lord of the Undead, Rooftop Storm, a free, multi-use sacrifice outlet and Varina in play! That's what!

[toctheyounger]

Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty Set Review

---

Well, I got there, finally. Sorry for the absence guys, life has been pretty nuts in the last little bit, and there's been very little downtime. I've been checking in here and there, but haven't really had a ton of time free to contribute. That being said, I've seen releases and made a couple minor tweaks to my list, so let's dive in.

Artifacts/Colorless/Lands

• Containment Construct - Alright, so this one is for @plaganegra. I had thoughts when this got brought up, but you know, spare time and all. I don't think this is the worst thing ever, and it's not an immediate no. I think we're lean enough on mana that it could be conditional in usage, and that's what stops me from trialling it myself. That said, I've now got 3 burst mana lands in the list, so there's no reason it couldn't put in some work. I think it's nice to envision a 'have your cake and eat it' strategy, and it could work. Let me know if you've tried it out for sure.
• Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire - I think this is the worst channel land for our build, and I don't specifically know that I'd bother with it here, but it is utility on a land for next to no mana, that virtually can't be interacted with. It's not the worst add, and considering I turf a fair few lands in a game there's no reason not to consider it.
• Otawara, Soaring City - I think this is probably the best of the three for us, personally. At least in terms of channel effects. The ability is slightly more costly, but lots more valuable. At a pinch we could even use it for our own cumulative upkeep cards as a slightly expensive reset even. Just really nice versatility.
• Takenuma, Abandoned Mire - This one sits on the middle for me. I prefer to know what I'm milling, but three is pretty minimal in the big scheme of things, and recurring something for next to nothing is great value in a land. I could definitely see a place for the UB variants of these, maybe the W at a pinch.

---

White

• Brilliant Restoration - If it weren't so expensive it might be a consideration. As is, it probably isn't as useful as Reclamation here, as Reclamation will always have a target.
• Farewell - I see this one as a get out of jail card, in terms of what it achieves. I don't think we want it too much, although the effect is quite good.
• Lion Sash - Really good card is really good. I definitely want a copy elsewhere, I don't quite think it does enough here, on many levels.

Honestly, I've got nothing else here at all. We're just not on theme on this plane.The blue, black and multicolored additions on this plane are for different archetypes, so we dip out. We can't really complain after returning to Innistrad though, we've been blessed of late.

Anyway, that's all I've got from Kamigawa. Great set in many ways, just not suited to the undead.

---

Another teeny tiny deck update:

• Changeling Outcast
• Bladestitched Skaab

• Liliana's Standard Bearer
• Animate Dead

Really just filling out the bottom of the curve here. Animate Dead has pretty minimal targets in the list now, and Standard Bearer has weirdly been really hard to hold up for any massive draws with. It seems fine on paper, but probably thrives more in a deck like Yawgmoth where you can really out yourself in danger of running out of cards to draw quite reliably. Outcast I've had my eye on for a little while, and Bladestitched is really in more for it's casting cost than the pump.

There's still more I'm considering for the chopping block, too. I am wondering how easy it is to justify Mikaeus and Sidisi in the list these days, they're both way up on the curve. They're nice reanimates, but my aristocrats (mostly) don't care about their abilities in play, they just need bodies, so having them be much smaller would be great. As is my LGS missed out on getting me a Champion of the Perished I ordered a little while back, so between that and Tainted Adversary I probably have straight swaps for them.

Otherwise, I'm still looking at enemy fetches. MY LGSes are all out at the moment right across the board, but the prices are still super, super low. I'll never get these sort of prices again, so if I can somehow find a Tarn and Rainforest, Mesa or Catacombs there's no reason not to stuff them in here quick as I can. If I can, I'll probably bring a Field of the Dead over too. I currently have copies in 2 decks - Tayam, Luminous Enigma, but as that build is leaning towards hard combo in a Devoted Druid/Ad Nauseam sort of shell it probably doesn't really fit there anyway for being too slow to really go off, and Slogurk, the Overslime, where it's pretty solid. So Tayam will probably give that up sometime soon.

[pzbw7z]

Liliana's Standard Bearer is a bit better when Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is in the house; otherwise, I don't think I'd play him either and I'm not certain he is worthwhile even with Haakan, but I've been in the Haakan fan club too long to not give it a good effort. I'm even thinking of trying out Josu Vess, Lich Knight!

[toctheyounger]

Liliana's Standard Bearer is a bit better when Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is in the house; otherwise, I don't think I'd play him either and I'm not certain he is worthwhile even with Haakan, but I've been in the Haakan fan club too long to not give it a good effort. I'm even thinking of trying out Josu Vess, Lich Knight!

Just be careful with Josu, kicker is a cast cost, not at ETB cost, so you can't cheat him in with an army.

[pzbw7z]

Liliana's Standard Bearer is a bit better when Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is in the house; otherwise, I don't think I'd play him either and I'm not certain he is worthwhile even with Haakan, but I've been in the Haakan fan club too long to not give it a good effort. I'm even thinking of trying out Josu Vess, Lich Knight!

Just be careful with Josu, kicker is a cast cost, not at ETB cost, so you can't cheat him in with an army.

No but he should be kick-able from the graveyard with Haakan in play and his base cost can be covered by Rooftop Storm. I'm pretty sure he's marginally playable at best, but it might be fun and profitable on occasion.

[toctheyounger]

Liliana's Standard Bearer is a bit better when Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is in the house; otherwise, I don't think I'd play him either and I'm not certain he is worthwhile even with Haakan, but I've been in the Haakan fan club too long to not give it a good effort. I'm even thinking of trying out Josu Vess, Lich Knight!

Just be careful with Josu, kicker is a cast cost, not at ETB cost, so you can't cheat him in with an army.

No but he should be kick-able from the graveyard with Haakan in play and his base cost can be covered by Rooftop Storm. I'm pretty sure he's marginally playable at best, but it might be fun and profitable on occasion.

Yeah for sure, that'll work. He is pretty marginal, but that's a ton of beef hitting play so it could put in some mileage for you.

[pzbw7z]

Deck list

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Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Planeswalkers

1 Liliana, Untouched by Death

Creatures

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Foulmire Knight

1 Gravecrawler

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Stitcher's Supplier

1 Containment Construct

1 Corpse Knight

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Tidehollow Sculler

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

1 Liliana's Standard Bearer

1 Headless Rider

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Zombie Master

1 Grave Scrabbler

1 Repository Skaab

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Wonder

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Twisted Abomination

Lands

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Snow-Covered Swamp

2 Swamp

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Clearwater Pathway

1 Sunken Hollow

1 Tainted Isle

1 Underground River

1 Watery Grave

1 Caves of Koilos

1 Godless Shrine

1 Grimclimb Pathway

1 Tainted Field

1 Vault of Champions

1 Island

1 Plains

1 Snow-Covered Island

1 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Command Tower

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Mana Confluence

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Fabled Passage

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Field of the Dead

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Unholy Grotto

Artifacts

1 Expedition Map

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Phyrexian Altar

Enchantments

1 Land Tax

1 Mystic Remora

1 Imprisoned in the Moon

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Rooftop Storm

Instant

1 Dispel

1 Tithe

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Countersquall

1 Despark

1 Negate

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Generous Gift

1 Fact or Fiction

Sorcery

1 Damn

1 Grim Tutor

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Vindicate

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

1 Beseech the Queen

Approximate Total Cost:

The list (in the spoiler above) is needing an upgrade; the following are wanted:

• Flooded Strand
• Prismatic Vista
• Scalding Tarn
• Windswept Heath

The question is; "What to cut?"

Tainted Field and Tainted Isle seem the best cuts - or the worst lands. It's not often I don't have a swamp handy, but it can happen.

Reflecting Pool honestly doesn't seem that necessary here since I have only two WW needs and no UU needs.

Swamp #2 seems the likeliest fourth cut, but that would leave only six basics. Is that enough to warrant using Land Tax?

Hallowed Fountain may be the next most logical cut, but it's pretty good and I don't want to reduce the fetchable Plains count.

Bojuka Bog is perhaps the worst land, but its ability can save and has saved the bacon so I am not going to cut it.

[ChocoDude]

Toc pushed me over the edge, so I made the following cuts this morning:

Fleshbag Marauder ---> Bladestitched Skaab
Liliana's Standard Bearer ---> Tainted Adversary

I had planned on cutting Liliana's SB for awhile, but just hadn't done it yet. I haven't gain much benefit from it. However, I may put it in my Ayara aristocrats deck. But I also had a Tainted Adversary waiting for deployment, so a second cut. I'm debating on the following cuts and adds to lower my curve further so I can filter with Varina more:

Potential Cuts: Noxious Ghoul, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Twilight's Call, Skullclamp
Potential Adds: Overcharged Amalgam, Epiphany at the Drownyard, Buried Alive, Nantuko Husk, Frantic Search, Silversmote Ghoul

I'm interested in trying the free recursion of Silversmote. I'm already using Master of Death too, but I'm not really wanting to go further with it by employing the Haakon package. Thus, the Liliana SB cut.

Any thoughts on why I should keep any of my potential cuts? Or why I should make a cut for one of my potential adds?

[toctheyounger]

The list (in the spoiler above) is needing an upgrade; the following are wanted:

• Flooded Strand
• Prismatic Vista
• Scalding Tarn
• Windswept Heath

The question is; "What to cut?"

I think you're on the money with Tainted lands. They're fine, but relying on swamps to do anything particular is a weird restriction and if you don't have to work around it you probably shouldn't. It's probably fine to cut basics too, and with the fetch count and nonbasic count as high as it is, you're probably at the point where you'd want to cut Land Tax for either more beef or, if you have it, sounds like @pokken has had good results with Crucible of Worlds.

Don't get me wrong, Land Tax is very good here, but once you're past the point of triggering it, at a certain point of as many fetches in your deck as you can get, it's just trumped by the instant speed shuffle, efficiency of ramp, and reusability of your fetches. They don't necessarily help with keeping your hand full, but my assumption is they make up for it with increased efficiency of land fixing and to some small degree deck thinning.

Toc pushed me over the edge, so I made the following cuts this morning:

Fleshbag Marauder ---> Bladestitched Skaab
Liliana's Standard Bearer ---> Tainted Adversary

I had planned on cutting Liliana's SB for awhile, but just hadn't done it yet. I haven't gain much benefit from it. However, I may put it in my Ayara aristocrats deck. But I also had a Tainted Adversary waiting for deployment, so a second cut. I'm debating on the following cuts and adds to lower my curve further so I can filter with Varina more:

Potential Cuts: Noxious Ghoul, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Twilight's Call, Skullclamp
Potential Adds: Overcharged Amalgam, Epiphany at the Drownyard, Buried Alive, Nantuko Husk, Frantic Search, Silversmote Ghoul

I'm interested in trying the free recursion of Silversmote. I'm already using Master of Death too, but I'm not really wanting to go further with it by employing the Haakon package. Thus, the Liliana SB cut.

Any thoughts on why I should keep any of my potential cuts? Or why I should make a cut for one of my potential adds?

I don't know that I'd cut Skullclamp if you have the space for it myself. Seems super good with Gravecrawler just as a non combo advantage engine, and there seems to be some applications with Zombie Infestation and Ashnod's Altar to draw yourself out if you're running those. I just think it's one of the best ways to keep your hand full, and that is important here. All of your other cuts I could see in one way or another.

I also potentially regret my words earlier in the thread about Buried Alive. It could be a very good add, and I'm eager to hear more about it's application. Frantic Search IS a good card, but I don't know that it digs deep enough here to really warrant the add, although as some feedback, Epiphany at the Drownyard is definitely worth having. Not quite as nuanced as FoF, but it achieves basically the same thing and let's you see a buttload of cards.

[ChocoDude]

Yeah Skullclamp is really good card draw especially with more lower-curve zombies that I've been going to AND with my token production. Another card I thought of trying again was Tormod the Desecrator for the tokens. That would also be good with Skullclamp, especially if I also add another sac outlet in Nantuko Husk.

Currently though, I'm leaning towards removing the first three of my cuts and adding the first three of my adds (reading left to right that is).

What would you say is your average X for Ephipany? It's definitely less efficient than FoF, but past x=4 you get to dig deeper so there's that. In essence, it may not help to lower my curve much if I'm more often spending 6+ mana on it.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah Skullclamp is really good card draw especially with more lower-curve zombies that I've been going to AND with my token production. Another card I thought of trying again was Tormod the Desecrator for the tokens. That would also be good with Skullclamp, especially if I also add another sac outlet in Nantuko Husk.

Currently though, I'm leaning towards removing the first three of my cuts and adding the first three of my adds (reading left to right that is).

What would you say is your average X for Ephipany? It's definitely less efficient than FoF, but past x=4 you get to dig deeper so there's that. In essence, it may not help to lower my curve much if I'm more often spending 6+ mana on it.

These seem like the best options of your cuts and adds list to me. I'm personally sad to see Mike go, but he is quite hard to finagle a win around, so it's probably the right move.

Epiphany I'm usually happy with x=3 making it a 4 mana for 4 revealed, as the minimum. I've definitely done more, probably not less, but I've found it quite good anyway, even sinking lots into it. At that point you're obviously digging for something, and most of those somethings in this list have variants, so it becomes quite reliable to get what you need to dig a bit deeper. I don't generally think it's particularly there to lower your curve per se, more just to lubricate the gears, and I've found it does that well (it's no Intuition but hey, I don't have 250 bucks spare); get you those land drops you want, the reanimation you need, the aristocrat, or the graveyard full of flesh. It's not perfect, but resolving for x+1 makes it fairly efficient and scaleable.

[ChocoDude]

Well it's good to see the Battlebond lands finally getting a reprint in the upcoming Commander Legends D&D set out in June. I've yet to pick up any of the allied colors for my EDH decks due to $$$.