Greven, Predator Captain - No Pain No Gain

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Eidolon of the Great Revel is super interesting. It's sort of like a legitimate plan against more competitive decks, that often have 1-3 mana spells and look to storm off.
It would have to be in the right configuration however for your own Greven deck. Casting two spells pre-combat to get in 4 more damage is fine, but not back breaking. And then often you are playing out some mana rocks post combat so the self damage is wasted. Still fine as its a "draw 2" at worst if you sacrifice it Greven in a pinch.

I think Ankh of Mishra and Zo-zu the Punisher are a bit small-ball for damage.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Adding on to my SCD above, in developing Zenith Kaalia, I ran across Mortuary. Normally locking your top deck is bad but Kaalia had the ability to plow through the top six, negating the drawback. This enabled her to die, hit the yard and then top deck, and I could cast her for three to power through.

In Greven, we can do similar since we have access to burst draw (he doesn't need to attack to get his trigger). Stack him on top, then cast for five and move to combat, drawing a grip and effectively we negate his cmd tax and can keep rebuying the sac fodder. This is an avenue to explore, right?

I'm dumb, he does need to attack so this might not be strong enough.
I have been aware of Mortuary and Haunted Crossroads for a shortish amount of time as serious cards, and even have Haunted Crossroads in my K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as a win con.

So there can definitely be some combinations that can be worked out I'm sure.
If you played these types of cards then you can just play one creature in the deck right? Freeing up 23 other cards. Haha, of course this is not exactly how it works. As I've found out drawing the important first creature to sacrifice has me settled on 25% deck ratio. I've worked out that gives you a 94% chance of getting one within your opening hand and first two draws.

Phyrexian Reclamation is in 28% of decks on EDHREC, so is a fairly popular choice. Lose life and get creatures back. But I've really got the deck not investing mana into anything but the purest game plan. I literally have no time to be tapping 1b. Sounds focused, but that's how it actually plays out.

But you could play a really creature light deck, use Phyrexian Reclamation, Mortuary, Haunted Crossroads, Volrath's Stronghold and go super heavy on the tutors instead. Buried Alive, Entomb, and just more cards like Beseech the Queen and Final Parting.
It's quite a bit slower as it requires a setup and/or investing mana each time, but you get to free up a lot of slots for other things.

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Post by Slipperygecko » 4 years ago

Great primer! Thank you :)

I found K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth to be a beast in this, also Chainer, Dementia Master is great as you can recur creatures for sac with a life ping, and it also also doubles as graveyard hate (which also seems to lack in most primers I see, I'm not sure why).

Would Sparkspitter work? Seems like a nice way to get repeated fodder off one creature and also discard any reanimation targets (if that floats your boat). It seems you mention Bloodghast but didn't put it in the deck?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Slipperygecko wrote:
4 years ago
Great primer! Thank you :)

I found K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth to be a beast in this, also Chainer, Dementia Master is great as you can recur creatures for sac with a life ping, and it also also doubles as graveyard hate (which also seems to lack in most primers I see, I'm not sure why).

Would Sparkspitter work? Seems like a nice way to get repeated fodder off one creature and also discard any reanimation targets (if that floats your boat). It seems you mention Bloodghast but didn't put it in the deck?
I lined up the black cards in the deck a few days ago to do a count of black mana symbols to see if K'rrik was going to be good. I have at this moment in time 31 black mana symbols for him to use across the entire deck, which wasn't as good as I was hoping when first evaluating him. But I mean he provides 6 damage just casting him alone, so I was probably not appreciating his worth in the deck as much.
I'll give him a go for sure, and I have plenty of experience with him as my commander, so know what he is capable of (hint broken things).

Sparkspitter does seem OK. I'm not on the small-ball value train at all however, it's all about literally killing each opponent in two attacks. One attack if you got a setup. So yeah I've stayed away from the recoverable/recurring creatures, as I find that I'll draw into more potent creatures fine if I get that "first attack".
The only recurring creatures I've tried in this deck are Ichorid and Rekindling Phoenix. And if I'm being completely honest I've found them underwhelming so far, even cutting the Ichorid due to black creature counts not supporting it.

Rite of the Raging Storm is similar to Sparkspitter in that it's an ongoing means of getting sacrifice creatures, and causes all sorts of sub-game problems for opponents. It's in a third of the EDHREC decks for Greven so is a popular choice.
But that full turn delay is enough to make it hard to play for my strategy and deck. I just don't have that sort of luxury in taking a turn off. The way to describe it is that by taking a turn off to cast a card like that, means that you have to deal with a player focused on you for another full round and get no draw for the turn. That's a big ask.

If Sparkspitter stats were 3/1 rather than 1/3, then I'd play it for sure.

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Post by Slipperygecko » 4 years ago

True, being much more explosive is def a better option I hadn't considered. I tend to play a lot of Kingdoms variant rather than traditional 4-player so can get away with not as optimised turns. Either way this has given me heaps to consider for me deck so thanks! I'm going to see what I can put in that's a bit more explosive. Also total segue your Ami deck taught me how to play combo, just wanted to let you know I'm a big fan.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Idea: play a goblins subtheme to make use of Sparksmith as a high velocity Greven pump that removes their blocks.

Rakdos is the best combo for gobbos but ie this really worth building into?
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Idea: play a goblins subtheme to make use of Sparksmith as a high velocity Greven pump that removes their blocks.

Rakdos is the best combo for gobbos but ie this really worth building into?
Not completely out of the question.

Goblin Piledriver and Goblin Rabblemaster can get large amount of power with Goblins. So potentially really cost effective draw.
Goblin Pyromancer can be used as a trump card, and you can even sacrifice it to Greven (draw 5 cards) so that it's not in play for the "destroy all Goblins" to take effect, but Goblins still get +3/0 until end of turn.

Goblin Recruiter can be a little bit more effective as you can draw Goblins you stack all at once, where as other more normal Goblin themed commanders do not (as far as I know).

It's a little strange attacking on two different axis, that is going wide with Goblins and also voltron with Greven, but each one can confuse opponents on what they need to deal with..I guess?

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Post by vandertroll » 4 years ago

Adding some Goblins could lead in adding Brightstone Ritual for mana advantage as well. Other useful gobbos for Greven might be Bloodmark Mentor , Goblin Assault Team, Goblin Battle Jester, Goblin Chirurgeon, even Reckless One could be useful with a goblin subtheme. Damn I am laughing picturing Greven with his goblin army
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

vandertroll wrote:
4 years ago
Adding some Goblins could lead in adding Brightstone Ritual for mana advantage as well. Other useful gobbos for Greven might be Bloodmark Mentor , Goblin Assault Team, Goblin Battle Jester, Goblin Chirurgeon, even Reckless One could be useful with a goblin subtheme. Damn I am laughing picturing Greven with his goblin army
Why laugh, its not like Greven didn't keep a bunch of cannon fodder Mogg aboard the Predator anyway, right? 👀👀
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Can we force enough elementals to make Nova Chaser work?

Edit: this might help to showcase a lot of interesting choices. https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&ord ... pow%3E%3D5
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Can we force enough elementals to make Nova Chaser work?

Edit: this might help to showcase a lot of interesting choices. https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&ord ... pow%3E%3D5
I don't think so. The problem is that you have to cast another elemental pre casting Nova Chaser, meaning it actually requires more mana to invest for the reward. So on the surface the draw to mana ratio isn't as good as it first looks. You do get that elemental back into play, but the second problem you run into is that a lot of the elementals you run in the deck are the "sacrifice at end of turn" ones, so getting them back into play off Nova Chaser would be wasted as you've already used Greven.

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Post by Slipperygecko » 4 years ago

Oh boy, Volcano hellion could be.. explosive with Greven.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Slipperygecko wrote:
4 years ago
Oh boy, Volcano hellion could be.. explosive with Greven.
Damn I just missed this one. A shoe in for sure.

I've been playing Hex Parasite and K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth as recent additions. The ability with Hex Parasite to combo with losing as much life as you want and lifelink is just too good. Plus I've actually found you have enough counters floating around in a game that you can make use of spending mana to pump up it's power if wanting a bit of draw to sacrifice it to Greven.

I'll definitely slot in Volcano Hellion it has everything you want. The ability to clear away a creature for blocking and losing life and excellent draw to mana ratio.


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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

3drinks here, back to blow up this thread some more. :P

Igneous Pouncer, yay or nay? You can fetch your badlands early, late it's got the ideal 5::1 split, you play living death anyway which gives Greven an attractive body back to feed on.
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Post by Slipperygecko » 4 years ago

Oh snap, Hex Parasite is a nice choice. Would be a funny answer to counters players too. What are your thoughts on Temporal Extortion? Could be a fun lulzy move to cast it, hold priority and then counter it for a huge boost, or even just let it out there and see if you get another turn / swing cycle.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
3drinks here, back to blow up this thread some more. :P

Igneous Pouncer, yay or nay? You can fetch your badlands early, late it's got the ideal 5::1 split, you play living death anyway which gives Greven an attractive body back to feed on.
It's definitely the sort of card that you can decide to play one land less as it's replacement. So I could easily see cutting a land for it. Obviously the more reanimation the better. I actually think you should at least try it in your deck and cut a land to go to 35 lands instead. You have the Animate Dead, Necromancy over my deck, so looking good in yours.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Slipperygecko wrote:
4 years ago
Oh snap, Hex Parasite is a nice choice. Would be a funny answer to counters players too. What are your thoughts on Temporal Extortion? Could be a fun lulzy move to cast it, hold priority and then counter it for a huge boost, or even just let it out there and see if you get another turn / swing cycle.
There are plenty of pay off cards for losing life like Cruel Bargain. Because it's commander damage and not regular damage that is the most threatening to players somebody will always counter it. If you're just using it to lose life then the are other better options imo.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Just thought I'd share this game result. I managed to kill 3 players in one turn. It was turn 6 and I'd hit a player for 18 Greven damage already.

I cast Phyrexian Purge on 8 creatures, losing 24 life and another from Mana Confluence to bring Greven power to 30. I attacked one player for lethal.
Then I cast Fury of the Horde (exiling Impetuous Devils and Treasonous Ogre) killing another player.
Then I cast Cabal Ritual to get enough to cast Essence Harvest dealing 30 damage to the player I'd already beaten down life with Greven previously.

Killing 3 players in a single turn with one creature is pretty satisfying.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

....is there a reason you're not playing flametongue kavu? It's doing everything you want here...and draws 4 for 2 life.
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
....is there a reason you're not playing flametongue kavu? It's doing everything you want here...and draws 4 for 2 life.
No reason at all :P It does seem to have a lot of what I want. Honestly I just don't know what to take out?

I think the disciplined pick is K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth. I haven't been all that impressed with him in my build so far. There are just too many red spells in the deck, and if you've noticed I've been taking out most of the non-artifact mana related cards, as I can operate on a very set mana base throughout the game. Seven mana is enough during even the late game, unless I need to pay for commander tax on casting Greven multiple times, but those types of games are going to be bad no matter what.
Another choice believe it or not is Exquisite Blood, simply based on casting cost. Don't get me wrong I've had plenty of success with it, but it does require you to connect with Greven, where the lifelink cards still work with blockers. Then it also creates an environment where opponents have to attack you. I do find myself holding it in my hand for a while if drawing it early as I need to establish mana sources and draw first, so can be a card that is better when you are already a bit ahead.
But it also feel like a bit too much of a signature card, so I'll just go with replacing K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth and I think the deck will be better for it.

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Post by OCPunisher » 4 years ago

Hey all,

Greven is slowly pushing Rakdos out as my go-to black-red deck every time I see him in action.

No one "seems" to have mentioned any of the following cards, most of which are usually very combo-tastic, but could also just be very solid on their own:
- Zealous Conscripts
- Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
- Cauldron of Souls

Am I missing something here? I'm new to the thread, but these all seem like they would fit nicely.
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

OCPunisher wrote:
4 years ago
Hey all,

Greven is slowly pushing Rakdos out as my go-to black-red deck every time I see him in action.

No one "seems" to have mentioned any of the following cards, most of which are usually very combo-tastic, but could also just be very solid on their own:
- Zealous Conscripts
- Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
- Cauldron of Souls

Am I missing something here? I'm new to the thread, but these all seem like they would fit nicely.
All fine cards for certain builds, but a little high-costed for reward in my deck. The neat thing is that Greven is a combo commander. He can always always kill an opponent in two attacks. One attack with some cards.
So the need for alternative win conditions like a Kiki-Jiki + Zealous Conscripts combo win is not necessary. Now Zealous Conscripts is good on it's own as it represents a steal card which is good with Greven sacrifice ability. So trust me I have eyed it up.
Then Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker is also fine to copy a creature for recurring value to sacrifice to Greven each turn. But if you look at my build more closely a lot of the creatures are "sacrifice at end of turn", meaning that Kiki copying them is useless.
It's not often that I have multiple creatures in play at the start of my turn. The play pattern is cast a creature pre-combat main phase to then sacrifice that creature to Greven. Kiki-Jiki basically requires taking a whole turn to cast him, to hopefully get use out of him the following turn.
What I'm trying to point out is that he is a little inefficient in my deck despite his upper power level.

Mikaeus, the Unhallowed again has a great upper power level, but just too expensive for the deck. and most importantly does not provide undying for Greven who is a human. If Greven had lost all of his humanity literally becoming some "minion horror" or the likes then I'd consider it. But even then often the best way to look at creatures is "would you sacrifice the creature to Greven for draw?" I find myself constantly having to do this and so even the utility creatures like Neheb, the Eternal and Treasonous Ogre get sacrifice in games where you have no other options and are behind.

If you look at some of the changes I've made for this exact reason I've cut some utility creatures in; Godo, Bandit Warlord, Ilharg, the Raze-Boar, K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth, because I found myself needing to sacrifice them at some stage to truly get ahead, and they don't represent the best in mana-to-draw ratios with Greven.
It's just the way it shakes out a lot of the time.
If you read my "Playing the Deck" section, another play pattern is that I'm not often casting creatures post-combat, for the reason of running into board wipes. Cards like Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker represent cards that you'd probably cast post combat, which means that often you are exposed to mass creature removal more.
If you have Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Greven as your creatures and a player casts Damnation, they both still die, none of them have undying.

Cauldron of Souls is similar in that it's a long term investment, and this deck is actually killing really quickly. A player every 1-2 turns once he is on the board. Taking a turn off for a Cauldron of Souls is a luxury that your giving your opponents and not yourself.
Plus the persist doesn't work at all with the 1 toughness creatures, Lightning Skelemental, Ball Lightning, Arc Runner, Impetuous Devils, Vindictive Lich.

Hope that makes sense, the deck is very play pattern efficient and believe it or not these cards just don't fit in with the general speed of the deck.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Sweet, my Italian Hellfire finally arrived. :D

SCD: Pact of the Titan. When you need that draw on a hasty Greven turn (pay for it next turn, after you've already consumed the draw4).

Couple cards I keep passing in my box for consideration;

- Body Snatcher; pitch a card on etb, feed to Greven and rez up what you discarded or something worse
- Puppeteer Clique; rez up something of theirs for sac, next turn sac this, then rez up something of their's again. Draws more cards than life lost.
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Sweet, my Italian Hellfire finally arrived. :D

SCD: Pact of the Titan. When you need that draw on a hasty Greven turn (pay for it next turn, after you've already consumed the draw4).

Couple cards I keep passing in my box for consideration;

- Body Snatcher; pitch a card on etb, feed to Greven and rez up what you discarded or something worse
- Puppeteer Clique; rez up something of theirs for sac, next turn sac this, then rez up something of their's again. Draws more cards than life lost.
Pact of the Titan is an interesting card. 5 mana for draw 4 isn't the most efficient assuming the game goes to your next turn. But it does free up the turn that you play it, and at times where you've drawn artifact mana this can offset it really well. Meaning that it virtually might cost your more like 3 mana because you got to play out more mana producers.
I also looked at Blazing Shoal as a potential card to draw at "zero cost" but I figure my best play was to discard a Moltensteel Dragon to draw 6, but you have to invest 2 cards, so really only a draw 4 card. At most other times you'll be investing 2 cards to draw 4 cards (say a Impetuous Devils) which is only really netting you 2 cards. Not good enough considering at times it'll have no targets for you to exile so takes up a dead draw in hand at other times.

I did have Body Snatcher in my initial build, you'll see that it was one of the first cards I cut. I just didn't have enough good creatures to reanimate in that manner (considering half of them have to sacrifice at end of turn anyway), and spending 4 mana to draw 2 cards off Greven was pretty mediocre.

Puppeteer Clique is pretty deece. Represents lots of recurring value. But I wouldn't be stoked about sacrificing it for draw 2 (the -1/-1 counter) on it's last go, so not sure how much stock you can put into "represents 3 sacrifices" value?
I'll have to admit I'm more keen to try Phyrexian Delver or Eldrazi Obligator as creatures that can provide multiple value.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Yeah, you've got more of those one shot guys where snatcher doesn't make a lot of sense all-in-all. I'm looking at, say, play this and cannibalize it, recur igneous pouncer and similar for the real draw. Which, I still think you want pouncer anyway.

I'm not really with the one shot guys whose sole purpose is to draw with the commander. I've thought a lot and this always comes out as guys we play that are only good one way and without the commander they are pretty suboptimal. I'd think we'd do better if we moved away with them, or at least got to keep them two turns before pitching (waning wurm), or are more permanent a la spined fluke or ruinous minotaur, unless you're getting a draw7 for three right away (cosmic larva, because you're never paying the upkeep).

I also came across Corpse Dance which brought back all sorts of nostalgia for me. I reckon it's gonna be great here, even @ 5cmc.

Do you ever have consistency issues with mox diamond in a 35 land deck? I slotted mine in but I am super, super anxious about that's validity. I'm trying it because there's a lot of draw to help hit land drops, but it's not without it's own risk.
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