Blocking the Tarrasque Attack?

[zennvick]

The Tarrasque

This has become something of a heated argument with a friend. We have two different opinions here:

He states that since I'm "attacking" him, he can declare blockers, even though the Tarrasque MUST attack a creature until there's none left.

I stated that would be a huge disadvantage when it already has one. So, I can die to anything with deathtouch, for instance, or another ability that allows a kill, plus you can literally have enough creatures block to do more than the 10 defense I have, when I ALREADY am limited to attacking creatures until there are none left, regardless of what those creatures can do?

In a way, I feel that the fact that I am directly attacking a creature basically states that I cannot be "blocked" because I am not attacking a caster, at least until there's nothing left. Can anyone help?

[zennvick]

It's worth noting that he is claiming that in the rulings, it states that this phase happens before blockers are declared. My take? That means that whatever the T is attacking, can't block another creature. His? That it means that you can declare blockers to the Tarrasque attacking the creature it is targetting.

Thanks in advance for any help! I have tried to find something to simplify this through the rules, but can't find anything!

[void_nothing]

So in Magic you never attack a creature. Creatures can only attack players and planeswalkers. The action "fight" is entirely different than the combat phase, although it does mimic what attacking and blocking creatures do to each other.

When The Tarrasque attacks you have to target a creature controlled by the player you're attacking. When the ability resolves. The Tarrasque and that creature both deal damage equal to their power to the other one. Then there's the declare blockers step and the combat damage step, and The Tarrasque deals its combat damage to, well, either its blocker or the opponent.

[zennvick]

Thanks! My friend still believes I'm wrong on this, but I appreciate the clarification

[Argus]

It's worth noting that he is claiming that in the rulings, it states that this phase happens before blockers are declared.

Yes, the fight is over and done before any blockers can be declared in the actual combat.

701.12. Fight
701.12a A spell or ability may instruct a creature to fight another creature or it may instruct two creatures to fight each other. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to the other creature.
701.12b If one or both creatures instructed to fight are no longer on the battlefield or are no longer creatures, neither of them fights or deals damage. If one or both creatures are illegal targets for a resolving spell or ability that instructs them to fight, neither of them fights or deals damage.
701.12c If a creature fights itself, it deals damage to itself equal to twice its power.
701.12d The damage dealt when a creature fights isn't combat damage.

My take? That means that whatever the T is attacking, can't block another creature. His? That it means that you can declare blockers to the Tarrasque attacking the creature it is targetting.

Thanks in advance for any help! I have tried to find something to simplify this through the rules, but can't find anything!

Here's a detailed sequence that might help clarify things for him.

1. Your combat phase begins. Your beginning of combat step begins.
2. You get priority and pass.
3. Opponent gets priority and passes.
4. Your beginning of combat step ends.
5. Your declare attackers step begins. You declare The Tarrasque as an attacker and tap it. This triggers its ability.
6. You would get priority but there is a triggered ability to put on the stack. You put "Whenever The Tarrasque attacks, it fights target creature defending player controls." on the stack. For the sake of this example, I'll assume your opponent has a Devoted Paladin which you choose as the target.
7. You get priority and pass.
8. Opponent gets priority and passes.
9. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 6) resolves. The Tarrasque deals 10 damage to Devoted Paladin as Devoted Paladin deals 4 damage to The Tarrasque.
10. You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to process. Devoted Paladin has lethal damage and is destroyed.
11. You get priority and pass.
12. Opponent gets priority and passes.
13. Your declare attackers step ends.
14. Your declare blockers step begins. This is when blockers can be declared for The Tarrasque attacking the defending player. (But the Devoted Paladin can't be chosen, because that didn't survive step 10. I think that's the ruling he mentions.) I'm going to assume that the rest is understood and not construct a possible set of blockers.

[zennvick]

I believe I am following you, but let me ask a bit further to ensure I do:

My understanding was the Tarrasque is fundamentally unable to attack until it has destroyed all other creatures the opposing player has. Thus, if a 1/1 Elf with Infect was the lone creature left. it would fight the T and the T would die because of that ability. But now, I am seeing this as; ONLY damage is being dealt between the two. Double strike, first strike, trample, etc, are all immaterial because it is T's power of 10 dealing 10 damage and unfortunate Elf's power of 1 hitting the Tarrasque.

Since Tarrasque has already performed an action during attack phase, he can no longer be considered as an "attacker" in the sense that damage is not considered to the Planeswalker/caster. even if Tarrasque has trample, for instance. If opposing player, thus, had no defenders, the special ability does nothing, the Tarrasque becomes an attacker, and normal combat resolution ensues. For instance, Player B or opposing player has no creatures on the field. I attack with big T. They use a creature with Flash to block. Tarrasque goes through normal dm resolution, INCLUDING any abilities that the creature may have, and could die because of Infect (for instance).

I hope I am making sense, but am I reading this correctly? Thank you for all the help!!!! I have been playing since Limited *Feel so old!* and there are a lot of new rules that don't necessarily vibe on me without clarification!

[void_nothing]

Okay, I think I see where you may be confused. A lot of quite old cards like Floral Spuzzem and Ophidian give you the option to use a triggered ability rather than deal their combat damage to the defending player if they're unblocked. But that's spelled out in the card text. There's nothing about abilities that trigger on attacking, not even ones that involve the fight action, that remove the attacker from combat.

What happens first is when The Tarrasque attacks, it fights a creature - that is, they both deal damage equal to their power to each other. Then, it's still in combat - the defending player has to choose to block it with one or more creatures or leave it unblocked.

[zennvick]

Thank you, that is so much more clear AND it makes the Tarrasque a better+ card than I originally thought. Cool!