Just for the record when I talked about Rooftop Storm and recursion --
I think that, because so much of the card's utility is combo oriented, that it would be nice to recur it. All of my other combo pieces are recurrable except Liliana, Untouched by Death (who is cheaper and has more obvious other uses). it not being really feasible to recur it with cards that synergize with our strategy makes it much less attractive of a combo piece to me than Phyrexian Altar.
that said, if you're getting significant non-combo value out of Storm, by all means play it! Or even just personal enjoyment. It's just something about the card that makes me want to not play it.
I don't think the answer is to play bad recursion to support it so much as to either 1) accept that it's not recurrable or 2) don't play it
There's nothing here to disagree with I think. The cards I'm most interested in recurring other than creatures are the Sorceries Living Death|TMP and Zombie Apocalypse|DKA. I'm not convinced that need is great enough to dedicate card slots to. If the ability is stapled onto a Zombie, e.g. Repository Skaab, then it's gravy. Enchantment recursion wouldn't suck but I'm not sold on Recall|LEG yet and I'm not sold on a C land yet either. Mostly I just don't have the repetitions with the deck yet to make those calls. I think there are enough routes to victory that there's no need to worry about individual cards.
Oh yeahm I would never run that card lol. I have one in my collection just because I love the flavor. I think it is part of some GY combo though so it has some use in the game, but its a very specific thing.
I find that running 3-4 mass reanimate spells gives me enough redundancy to not have to worry too much about recurring them, but when I need to, the skaab or snapcaster are there. I usually use snappy on a removal spell though. Balthor is cool because he is a creature that can reanimate things. If I were to add mass reanimate #4 it would be him.
Zombies ate my brains. My Varina Decklist Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
Just for the record when I talked about Rooftop Storm and recursion --
I think that, because so much of the card's utility is combo oriented, that it would be nice to recur it. All of my other combo pieces are recurrable except Liliana, Untouched by Death (who is cheaper and has more obvious other uses). it not being really feasible to recur it with cards that synergize with our strategy makes it much less attractive of a combo piece to me than Phyrexian Altar.
that said, if you're getting significant non-combo value out of Storm, by all means play it! Or even just personal enjoyment. It's just something about the card that makes me want to not play it.
I don't think the answer is to play bad recursion to support it so much as to either 1) accept that it's not recurrable or 2) don't play it
I agree with all of this here, personally. I find the card to be too clunky and slow compared to something like the new Necroduality.
That said, if you want to have the highest chance of winning with the deck, I think you want to maximize combos. In that sense, Rooftop Storm is just Phyrexian Altar #2 for Gravecrawler combo. In that case I think you are running it most of the time.
A few of my friends in my playgroup have started playing at a local store and it made me wonder how my deck would do. Apparantly a lot of people jam crap like oracle/consultation combo in their non-cedh decks. It got me thinking what I would need to change about my deck to compete in that environment. I would probably add another counterspell and a demonic tutor. And now that the conversation is fresh - maybe a rooftop storm too. If I could find room, a vampiric tutor as well.
That shop has prize support for kills and winners, so that is why there are a lot of combo decks running around. CEDH gets its own pod I guess.... But yeah. It is interesting to think about what a fully optimized version of Varina would look like, no holds barred...
Zombies ate my brains. My Varina Decklist Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
although my backup plan is assembling one of the janky 4 card combos vs. 3 card combos, because those janky 4 card combos consist of cards I am generally happy to see at any stage of the game (1 and 2 cmc zombies, haakon, liliana, skullclamp, ashnod's altar)
although my backup plan is assembling one of the janky 4 card combos vs. 3 card combos, because those janky 4 card combos consist of cards I am generally happy to see at any stage of the game (1 and 2 cmc zombies, haakon, liliana, skullclamp, ashnod's altar)
Oh I forgot about the plunderer. I wonder if you would run all of the ways to go infinite with Gravecrawler though... just to increase your odds of comboing quicker.
Which 4-card combos are you working on exactly?
Zombies ate my brains. My Varina Decklist Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
My personal thoughts on Rooftop are mixed. Its a flavor home run and what it does is pretty great, what gets me is the CMC. Its one of those spells people hold up removal for and if it does fizzle you've lost a turn, or a great deal of it. If it resolves or doesn't get blown up you're golden and you can go off for a combo win or just get some great value, but my experience with it has been less flattering.
I'm torn in that it does feel like such a touchstone for theme, I just don't like cards that, by virtue of cost, are as all in as it is.
I also think the best way to play it is to enable or lubricate a combo, and thats a road I don't go down easily. Theres combo in my deck but I do want my inclusions to hold merit outside of a specific alignment of cards that go off, and while Rooftop does do that to some degree it feels more tenuous for being as expensive as it is and as known as it is. I know @yeti1069 gets good value from it, I'm just on the fence myself. Ut being neither here nor there doesn't do enough for me to want it in, or to completely write it off either.
As well as all of that I'm just strapped for space tbh. I've got some idea of what's going to justify new inclusions but its at that point where most of what I'm taking out is justifiably included so anything coming in is pretty solid. Its a nice problem to have in one way I guess.
As far as enchantment recursion goes, I think in most cases we don't need it. I run Hall as a fairly reasonable just in case, and I don't think I've had to activate it yet, but I don't really want to be without it either. Honestly the only reason I've not had to is people don't know exactly what Tombstone Stairwell does and only realize they haven't grokked it properly once its too late lol. If there is a target for recursion, its Stairwell.
Putrid Imp is a placeholder for me for what thats worth.
I'll say my favorite use of Rooftop has been alongside Havengul Lich to go, ": Cast target zombie from a graveyard." There's potential for a combo there (Phyrexian Altar + any zombie is infinite in and out), but even just being able to spend 1 or 2 mana to recur a zombie or two has been valuable. I've often played Rooftop on 7 mana, cast Lich for free, then spent 1 mana to recur something (again, Rot Hulk has been the all-star there).
That it also CHUGS through the deck with Kindred Discovery out has lead to some huge turns. Bigger ones when I also had Zombie Infestation to pitch the non-zombies I was drawing to make more zombies to draw more cards to play more zombies...
My hope now, is to see how often I have Rooftop in play and Overcharged Amalgam in hand. Or, the dream, is OA in the yard with 1 (or more) mana and Havengul in play, to repeatedly cast Amalgam for next to nothing. I've already gotten HL + OA going in a game, and it was solid, but 5 mana to counter a spell, while good as a repeatable option, is cumbersome, whereas 1 mana to do it is incredibly strong.
A few of my friends in my playgroup have started playing at a local store and it made me wonder how my deck would do. Apparantly a lot of people jam crap like oracle/consultation combo in their non-cedh decks. It got me thinking what I would need to change about my deck to compete in that environment. I would probably add another counterspell and a demonic tutor. And now that the conversation is fresh - maybe a rooftop storm too. If I could find room, a vampiric tutor as well.
That shop has prize support for kills and winners, so that is why there are a lot of combo decks running around. CEDH gets its own pod I guess.... But yeah. It is interesting to think about what a fully optimized version of Varina would look like, no holds barred...
Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Diabolic Intent, and maybe Enlightened Tutor and aim to assemble to cheapest pieces ASAP. I played the deck at a "friendly" EDH tourney a couple years ago when my friend and I were in Colorado, and would have been able to assemble a combo and win on turn 3 or 4 but for some heavy stax from the mono-blue combo/control guy. I'd probably also dump any zombies over 3 mana that don't directly contribute to comboing or finding a combo, ditch most of the lords, and backfill cheap interaction, and some additional card draw. But that also doesn't sound enjoyable to me in the least.
A few of my friends in my playgroup have started playing at a local store and it made me wonder how my deck would do. Apparantly a lot of people jam crap like oracle/consultation combo in their non-cedh decks. It got me thinking what I would need to change about my deck to compete in that environment. I would probably add another counterspell and a demonic tutor. And now that the conversation is fresh - maybe a rooftop storm too. If I could find room, a vampiric tutor as well.
That shop has prize support for kills and winners, so that is why there are a lot of combo decks running around. CEDH gets its own pod I guess.... But yeah. It is interesting to think about what a fully optimized version of Varina would look like, no holds barred...
Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Diabolic Intent, and maybe Enlightened Tutor and aim to assemble to cheapest pieces ASAP. I played the deck at a "friendly" EDH tourney a couple years ago when my friend and I were in Colorado, and would have been able to assemble a combo and win on turn 3 or 4 but for some heavy stax from the mono-blue combo/control guy. I'd probably also dump any zombies over 3 mana that don't directly contribute to comboing or finding a combo, ditch most of the lords, and backfill cheap interaction, and some additional card draw. But that also doesn't sound enjoyable to me in the least.
yeh that sounds pretty lame lol. I think were I go and play there I would want to up my competitiveness a bit but not go all in on combo T3-4
Havengul Lich seems exceptionally good with rooftop storm the way you use it. Nice.
Zombies ate my brains. My Varina Decklist Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
Yeah, I know Havengul is competing with a lot of value in the 5 drop slot, but it's fairly consistently done some work for me, and can be a ton of value alongside some other pieces. Everyone always forgets that it can allow you to cast a creature from ANY graveyard, and gets their activated abilities. I've used it in the past to get someone else's Archaeomancer to return an important spell, and occasionally on something with a valuable activated ability.
I've also just used it to build back up after a board wipe: put it on top of the deck with Volrath's Stronghold at EOT, cast it, activate, then cast 1 or 2 other zombies. This has been especially useful with Crypt of Agadeem, where I activated that for 6+ mana, which covered the cost of playing and activating the Lich, leaving more mana open for recursion.
Oh I forgot about the plunderer. I wonder if you would run all of the ways to go infinite with Gravecrawler though... just to increase your odds of comboing quicker.
Which 4-card combos are you working on exactly?
So I won't because it's not a zombie and my only non-zombie is honorary zombie Field of the Dead fetcher supreme Weathered Wayfarer And I find Rooftop Storm to be just too expensive. I never want to spend 6 mana on anything except a mass reanimation and even that's pushing it. But I do think a combo-heavy build probably runs it.
-infinite discard stuff- Putrid Imp + Lazotep Chancellor + Ashnod's Altar + outlet (Kindred Discovery or Skullclamp
-basically makes infinite dead zombies and infinite loot/draw depending, with infinite mana in some scenarios. Discard a card, pay 1, sac zombie make 2 mana, equip, discard, pay 1, etc.
Zombie Infestation + Ashnod's Altar + Skullclamp + outlet
This one is kinda cool because it's essentially a 3 card combo, and you will eventually find something that makes it a win. You discard 2 cards, make a zombie, equip, sac it for 2 mana, draw 2, repeat until you're infinitely milled, flash back dread return or Sevinne's Reclamation.
The Infestation combo is nice because it is straight curve to turn 3, and pretty easily doable before that point.
Yeah it is a great combo, each card is independently pretty strong with Zombie Infestation being the "worst" (and it has a lot of applications really).
I really believe Skullclamp us underplayed grossly in these decks. It's been an absolute rockstar for me
The Infestation combo is nice because it is straight curve to turn 3, and pretty easily doable before that point.
Yeah it is a great combo, each card is independently pretty strong with Zombie Infestation being the "worst" (and it has a lot of applications really).
I really believe Skullclamp us underplayed grossly in these decks. It's been an absolute rockstar for me
Most of the stuff in the deck has 2 toughness, unless you're going all in on the weenie/combo strategy, and there are a number of lords in most decks, meaning Clamp doesn't auto-kill, making it fairly inefficient without a sac outlet. Most of the lists I've seen are running only 1 or 2 repeatable sac outlets, with 1 or 2 lands or 1-shot abilities to add to the rest. That's not consistent enough to make Clamp a strong inclusion, I think. I love Clamp in my Meren of Clan Nel Toth [/card] and Marchesa, the Black Rose decks where I've got many more sac outlets and creatures with tiny butts. Ditto for when I played an Elfball deck.
Most of the stuff in the deck has 2 toughness, unless you're going all in on the weenie/combo strategy, and there are a number of lords in most decks, meaning Clamp doesn't auto-kill, making it fairly inefficient without a sac outlet. Most of the lists I've seen are running only 1 or 2 repeatable sac outlets, with 1 or 2 lands or 1-shot abilities to add to the rest. That's not consistent enough to make Clamp a strong inclusion, I think. I love Clamp in my Meren of Clan Nel Toth [/card] and Marchesa, the Black Rose decks where I've got many more sac outlets and creatures with tiny butts. Ditto for when I played an Elfball deck.
I run more sac outlets than most and more x/1s than most (15?!?!) but in my deck Clamp has been darn near an autowin. I imagine its' a bit worse if you're not running Nantuko Husk bros like me, but if you're running both altars and Carrion Feeder and Phyrexian Tower the odds should be strongly in your favor of clamp being great.
The number of extra zombie tokens that turn up randomly and Varina's ability to make them has just been great.
Ashnod's Altar + Skullclamp + Varina, Lich Queen is not quite an infinite combo, but 1: exile 2 cards, draw 2 cards is very good. You can usually chain through a sizable chunk of your deck.
In a lot of ways the guys being x/2s is *better* because it lets you sac them to altars.
For myself I know I prefer when clamp does the work, but having to sac a creature is no big deal at all. We've got tombspawn tokens, decayed tokens, Tower (which I have been absolutely loving lately) altars and Feeder, some folk running more again. I think its a viable include.
Hello everyone, it's been a while since I wrote but I still read you avidly.
I would share my decklist and talk about some card choices.
I've read all and I've been kind of convinced by the last changes we made around the ramp package. I've been so convinced that I even ... hum ... take out my Sol ring.
Disclaimer : I haven't tested the new adds yet because of the lack of updates on Xmage (where I had the chance to play against Reya. Good times ! even when he is playing Yarok). Disclaimer 2 : I don't like infinites, so I don't play any of the combos you talked about this week. Therefore my gameplan is maybe not exactly yours so some of the synergies ill talk about may be pointless in your deck.
Here is my plan :
I run no ramp to maximise the Varina's setup to play her turn 4 and start filling the graveyard. I cutted Sol Ring because I ran less than 10 5+CMC drops that i dont specialy need toi rush and because my deck is so color intensive.
I don't want to play less than 40 zombies according to this plan. I need a hand with 3 lands and a few cheap zombies to feel confident.
So i cutted all the cards over 4 CMC that I found less impactful or too dependent on an already good board state.
I kept a few cards that I personally love but are still optional : Reconnaissance for exemple.
The fact I didn't test the deck as it shows makes me keep some of the new inclusions like Undead Butler and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver that I'm definitely not sure about.
The first point i want to make is the following :
The fact we usualy rely on lords means that we consider the stats of our boards are relevants, so i chose to rely if possible on some zombies that are over the curve (like a 2/2 for B) to increase the chance of not being blocked or to reduce the life total of someone. I found that those bad zombies were also easy sac targets that you never feel wrong about. I play for exemple Carnophage, Diregraf Ghoul and the not so bad Champion of the Perished.
My ideal play is to :
T1 zombie
T2 zombie
T3 lord
T4 Varina
T5+ find a mass rea and a counterspell
Those high stats zombies are (kind of) synergistic with my second point.
The second point i want to make is the following :
I tested Altar of dementia without any combo support. It have been a glorious card that made me double the amount of zombies in my graveyard just in reacting to some opponent interactions or when a mass reanimation is on the stack. It's cheaper than the other altars, in my mind this matters according to this plan. This may be a way to fill the yard using a board of little zombies when Varina is not available.
On the other hand, that's unpredictable but I definitely like it much more than Ashnod's Altar which gets removed every time when it is about to have an impact (based of my only player experience).
The third point is that I tested the thing that Pokken said, using some cantrips to replace the rocks. I found it ok, especially the 1 mana ones, it makes sense when you need to have a good start. I tend to often roll them late game, but even in this case i feel they are better top deck than solring.
Wayfarer is indeed excellent in this plan and saves my ass frequently, good call.
Any thoughts about this are welcome.
Moxfield is actualy down for me so I'm going to share my decklist later.
I would shout out a video that inspired me as @Pokken did : careful it's in french (I dont know if the Youtube translator is effective form french to english)
Last edited by Nabux2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Interesting take on the deck I like it! Lords definitely matter in your strategy. I think you need to add two counterspells and take out two zombies with Fierce Guardianship being the priority to add
Zombies ate my brains. My Varina Decklist Braids cEDH Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Chatterfang, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat, Preston, Sauron.
MTG since 2003
Many of you likely already know this, I probably did but had forgotten: There is a card in color that allows one to recur all spell types: Yawgmoth's Will. I not at all sure Esper produces the mana to abuse it properly.
I don't remember if I had/played a copy back in the day, but I do remember playing Necropotence|ICE and Lake of the Dead in type 2. Good times!
Combo oriented decks might also consider Peer into the Abyss, or am I crazy? It might actually just be used to set up an epic reanimation!
Many of you likely already know this, I probably did but had forgotten: There is a card in color that allows one to recur all spell types: Yawgmoth's Will. I not at all sure Esper produces the mana to abuse it properly.
I don't remember if I had/played a copy back in the day, but I do remember playing Necropotence|ICE and Lake of the Dead in type 2. Good times!
Combo oriented decks might also consider Peer into the Abyss, or am I crazy? It might actually just be used to set up an epic reanimation!
Peer is just too expensive for me, and Yawgmoth's Will seems eh to me - it's a fine card I guess, but I don't really want to be exiling anything. Anything that turns off Phyrexian Altar combos is just risky to me. All of my combos are sorcery speed.
Peer is just too expensive for me, and Yawgmoth's Will seems eh to me - it's a fine card I guess, but I don't really want to be exiling anything. Anything that turns off Phyrexian Altar combos is just risky to me. All of my combos are sorcery speed.
Yawgmoth's Will is probably not a card for this deck: it could work well occasionally but I'm certainly not going to get a copy to test.
I can see Peer into the Abyss just winning on the spot with Rooftop Storm in play or even just a little extra mana. I could see it setting up a win for the next turn. I can also see it sitting in hand mocking me for many turns. I might round up a copy anyway and see if it's fun.
Another card I'd like to figure out a use for is Doomsday. It takes more setup than it does in other decks, but Varina could possibly pull it off with a few Zombies on board and maybe five more mana.
A card that should probably be considered for a competitive deck is Dauthi Voidwalker. I'm not going to try it, but it seems like a card to have when there are other graveyard decks at the table. But then, he draws so much hate it probably doesn't matter much.
Anyway, everyone probably already knows it, but Living Death|TMP is just an AWESOME card! It turned another grim-looking game around for me tonight. I'm grateful that I found that card in the primer and in other decks I saw online; I probably would never have thought about it on my own.
I would also like to shout out Vengeful Dead! It did some work for me tonight. One of the other players was on Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and another player had one Zombie in play when I had to overload Damn.
Rooftop Storm pulled its weight again tonight helping me get ahead after the board wipe. Liliana, Untouched by Death helped out as well before I top-decked Storm..
Interesting take on the deck I like it! Lords definitely matter in your strategy. I think you need to add two counterspells and take out two zombies with Fierce Guardianship being the priority to add
Thanks for the feedback
Last edited by Nabux2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
I would also like to shout out Vengeful Dead! It did some work for me tonight. One of the other players was on Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and another player had one Zombie in play when I had to overload Damn.
Yeah, feels like the best card in the deck in this situation.
Anyone has experiences about Wilhelt in the 99 for varina ?
I might round up a copy anyway and see if it's fun.
