Tinybones - brewing resilient discard in EDH

[yeti1069]

I have Archon of Cruelty in my Sefris deck, and it's pretty strong. Feel a little bad, because it tends to beat up on one player, but it's a lot of value.

[pokken]

re: Coffers package
I think you pretty much have it - stronghold is probably playable, and Nirkana Revenant might be reasonable on the fattie count.

In mono black, things I usually will run are Myriad Landscape and Burnished Hart and possibly even Solemn Simulacrum. Wayfarer's Bauble is, as bad as it is, really synergistic with a coffers plan and likely better than most ramp spells. With reanimation effects you will find yourself occasionally having reanimating Burnished Hart to get to 11 mana or whatever to be the right play.



re: Hellbent!
Really the ultimate problem with trying to make everyone hellbent is that you have to have to also win the game. Generally a discard deck can get everyone hellbent or close but then struggles to win. It's why I think you're ultimately better off just trying to kill them with your stream of cards and reanimating stuff and big mana black cards vs. going in on the ham.

I think, realistically, if people are discarding 2 per turn and you're drawing +2 or so per turn, you're going to be able to come out ahead by just using great mono black finishers. It does mean you maybe need to go ahead and Torment of Hailfire people but that card is positive synergy with your strategy (they have fewer cards and you've been blowing up all the creatures).

Adding some support for Bloodchief Ascension might not be a bad idea either.

--

All things considered I am really liking most of where the list is going, but the creature package is (in my opinion) going to be a source of problems for you. I don't think it's *correct* to just cut all those creatures and replace them with a mono black goodstuff creature package, but I think you'd win more games skullclamping Bloodghast and reanimating Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Doom Whisperer than you would playing Burglar Rat.

I have flashbacks to every time my buddy played Burglar Rat spam in his Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck and then died to combat damage.

[plaganegra]

Nirkana Revenant might be reasonable on the fattie count.

In mono black, things I usually will run are Myriad Landscape and Burnished Hart and possibly even Solemn Simulacrum. Wayfarer's Bauble is, as bad as it is, really synergistic with a coffers plan and likely better than most ramp spells. With reanimation effects you will find yourself occasionally having reanimating Burnished Hart to get to 11 mana or whatever to be the right play.

Burnished Hart and Wayfarer's Bauble I like quite a bit and Nirkana Revenant is nice too. I wonder how many creature-ramp dudes I need. I feel Crypt Ghast is best in slot and am just hoping that is enough with all my tutors and recursion. Heart and bauble would be great suppliments to that, especially burnished heart imo.

Edit - Burnished Hart & Strands of Night is decent if you need to ramp in a lockout position. Basically 5 mana and 2 life to put a swamp into play every cycle.

re: Hellbent!
Really the ultimate problem with trying to make everyone hellbent is that you have to have to also win the game. Generally a discard deck can get everyone hellbent or close but then struggles to win. It's why I think you're ultimately better off just trying to kill them with your stream of cards and reanimating stuff and big mana black cards vs. going in on the ham.

I think, realistically, if people are discarding 2 per turn and you're drawing +2 or so per turn, you're going to be able to come out ahead by just using great mono black finishers. It does mean you maybe need to go ahead and Torment of Hailfire people but that card is positive synergy with your strategy (they have fewer cards and you've been blowing up all the creatures).

Adding some support for Bloodchief Ascension might not be a bad idea either.

One problem that happens at that stage of the game where you have 1+ enchantment discard effects taking over is players stop discarding cards altogether. They just always play their topdecks right away (smart) to save the cards from being discarded next turn. The enchantments only help you get to and maintain "topdeck" mode for everyone. So then I need to just drain people with Tiny's second ability which is where things like coffers and crypt ghast really help. So ideally no need for any card like torment to be in the deck if this is working correctly (which is really my goal - to make Tiny work).

This is again why the best "discard" effect in the deck is probably Anvil of Bogardan. The only thing that stops this from happening is my own Chains of Mephistopheles lol. So it is a garaunteed draw every upkeep with Tiny.

Bloodchief Ascension is fantastic, it's very firmly in my maybeboard next to Painful Quandary and Shrieking Affliction, because the effect is not essential to make the deck work (theoretically anyway). My only "helper" is Gray Merchant because I can abuse it with my recursion and it can single handedly save me from dying.

All things considered I am really liking most of where the list is going, but the creature package is (in my opinion) going to be a source of problems for you. I don't think it's *correct* to just cut all those creatures and replace them with a mono black goodstuff creature package, but I think you'd win more games skullclamping Bloodghast and reanimating Razaketh, the Foulblooded and Doom Whisperer than you would playing Burglar Rat.

I have flashbacks to every time my buddy played Burglar Rat spam in his Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck and then died to combat damage.

Thanks! I am having a lot of fun with this.

lol @ Burglar Rat deaths. I've been there... like I said I used to play Shirei which is a very underpowered strategy and to make things worse I chose to make it a spirit tribal deck hahaha

I do recognize that what I am trying to do - "win with Tinybones" is hard and unnecessary to win a game of EDH and there are definitely stronger mono black things I can do, even with Tiny at the helm. I guess I don't want to do that until I exhaust every way of building this deck lol. I really am enjoying the challenge. By the time I am done I will probably have had played every version of the deck even - just starting at creatures because I thought it was unique and flavorful for a game of EDH, which is something that is missing at all too many tables.

Yes I realize I inadvertently just said that discard was missing at too many tables rofl.

I love the problems that deckbuilding like this give me by design, it creates a tangible sense of pride when you make it work. I might fail at this, lol but you guys have been extremely helpful. Hopefully I can recruit a few people to hop in and try some stuff, even if its just a more standard Tinybones list. All are welcome!

[benjameenbear]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but Sadistic Hypnotist is absolutely phenomenal at shredding hands en masse. I think he's a solid addition to your decklist since he converts your ETB discard effects into repeatable Mind Rots. Ive actually taken him OUT of my Yawgmoth list because he's so powerful alongside Token effects or converting spent creatures into valuable cards. Granted, he's not technically Phyrexian in flavor, which made the cut more justifiable in my mind, but it's a stupidly powerful card.

Also, @KitsuLeif has an EXCELLENT Primer for EDH discard strategies that I'd highly recommend. Granted, it's with Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger as the Commander, but I'd bet that a lot of the principles and card choices between your decks would be the same. Here's the list for reference.

[plaganegra]

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but Sadistic Hypnotist is absolutely phenomenal at shredding hands en masse. I think he's a solid addition to your decklist since he converts your ETB discard effects into repeatable Mind Rots. Ive actually taken him OUT of my Yawgmoth list because he's so powerful alongside Token effects or converting spent creatures into valuable cards. Granted, he's not technically Phyrexian in flavor, which made the cut more justifiable in my mind, but it's a stupidly powerful card.

Also, @KitsuLeif has an EXCELLENT Primer for EDH discard strategies that I'd highly recommend. Granted, it's with Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger as the Commander, but I'd bet that a lot of the principles and card choices between your decks would be the same. Here's the list for reference.

Thanks a lot for the resources! I just went ahead and checked out his thread.

I have Sadistic Hypnotist in my Chatterfang deck haha and it is so nasty. I am not sure I have enough ways to abuse it here though, especially for 5 mana...

[plaganegra]

Okay so I got to play with this deck for two games on Friday and I was actually very happy with the direction it is going. I did not win either game, but came extremely close in the second game.

Game 1 - not too much to say, I had a lot of interesting cards to play and didnt draw a single discard spell before T10ish. I don't even know how that is possible rofl. Dud game.

Game 2 - I got to use and reuse several of my creature ETBs with Strands of Night. Wow is this card good in the deck. Easily the MVP of that game. The main reason I lost the game was the matchup - I was playing against Liesa, Forgotten Archangel so I only got to use each ETB once. Otherwise Burglar Rats and Bone Shredder would have controlled everything. I had a great mix of everything the deck wanted and it felt powerful and difficult to play against. Got to drop a Noetic Scales and bounce all of my opponents creatures with an active oppression on the board. OOF was that brutal lol. Everyone had to ready the card which gave me personal satisfaction.

Either way, the experience prompted me to change a few things in my list to see where it goes next...

Never ended up adding in Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker. I think it is too situational, but I could be wrong...

Adding more defensive spells in Forcefield (ensnaring bridge lite) and meekstone (urza's saga grabs it)

Swapping out Sheoldred and Gary for Maralen of the Mornsong and Opposition Agent. I think they fit what the deck wants to do and present a creature-based lock on the game to allow me to drain everyone with tinybones.

Swapped out a couple lands to increase snow count for my snow effects.

Lightning Greaves and such are not needed in the deck. Always nice to have, but not a critical card. The way this plays out, I am not dropping Tinybones on T2 like I used to with other versions I have played. Instead, Tiny comes out in the mid-late game to gain some value when I am ready to pull ahead after setting up my boardstate and reducing cards in my opponents hands. At that point, Tinybones is not very vulnerable, and if they kill him its not that big of a deal until I want to start draining. So I added in Profane Tutor instead so I can go find a utility thing I need to get to that stage - which is certainly some sort of recursion spell or board wipe if I need either.

Crucible of Worlds needed to find a spot in the deck so I can keep hitting land drops throughout the game and mitigate the cost of strands of night.

Unearth is probably better than Necromancy most of the time in my deck, so that was an easy switch.

Anyway the decklist is up to date in the first post if anyone is interested in following along!

@RowanKeltizar did you ever get around to putting together a list for Tinybones?

[RowanKeltizar]

@RowanKeltizar did you ever get around to putting together a list for Tinybones?

I don't think I can afford to buy a new deck at this point in time (i only play in paper form and I don't really have the time to proxy everything). Currently investing more in the decks I already have. Bought The Great Henge for Atraxa and a bunch of new interaction to try out with Niv.

It's good to hear your list is working out well though.

[plaganegra]

Updated to add Uba Mask in place of Bolas's Citadel.

This is an easy swap the more I think about it - The deck is often short on spare life total to really abuse Bolas's Citadel. It also costs 6 mana to cast. Uba Mask keeps hands empty allowing me to trigger Tinybones with ease and makes playing spells awkward for opponents since they must play them the turn they are drawn. It is symmetrical so I will have the same problem which means that I will need to be good with my timing when I choose to drop this card on the board.

[plaganegra]

I almost forgot Omen Machine was a card! I came across it in a trade and I think I will add it to the deck. It essentially has no downside in a discard deck because your opponents will be casting anything relevant so it doesn't get discarded, or holding a card in hand to avoid damage. They cannot draw cards - period. So that means any way they had of gaining card advantage to get ahead of discard effects is completely gone, and only get to reveal the top card once per turn. Similar to Uba Mask in a lot of ways. Not to mention the card seems like it could be a lot of fun in an otherwise "unfun" game at times lol

Maybe I am looking at this card with rose-tinted glasses on, but I see a lot of potential here. Possibly a diamond in the rough...

[Artaud]

I wouldn't go with Omen Machine . It's asking for being killed by things like T&N or any big creature beatdown they find in a top. It also blocks a draw part from Tinybones which is its main selling point. I'd rather use Possessed Portal if you insist on blocking draw effects but I'd focus on using Tiny to draw more and more discard to keep opponents' hands empty if I was you.

[plaganegra]

I wouldn't go with Omen Machine . It's asking for being killed by things like T&N or any big creature beatdown they find in a top. It also blocks a draw part from Tinybones which is its main selling point. I'd rather use Possessed Portal if you insist on blocking draw effects but I'd focus on using Tiny to draw more and more discard to keep opponents' hands empty if I was you.

Thanks for stopping by! I really appreciate the feedback

I have tried going the route of cantripping with TB as often as possible and it is really a glass-cannon type of strategy that runs out of steam fast in my experience. It is just extremely fragile in practice to try to build the deck that way I think... Anyway, I am trying something different and I want to flesh it out completely before I abandon the creature-based strategy idea I have going here.

Possessed Portal is a great suggestion and it has been in and out of my list a few times. Comparing it to Omen Machine immediately the casting cost is a big downside, but the deck can make a lot of mana at times. I have built the deck in a way where big creatures should have a very hard time doing anything at all on the board. Between the defensive artifacts like meekstone, ensnaring bridge, forcefield, noetic scales, board wipes, maze of ith, and re-usable removal in my creature suite I think I have adequately mitigated the downside of free fatties from omen machine. I could be wrong, but that is my thinking anyway... (also, what are you referring to with T&N?).

The timing when you would drop an omen machine is also something to be considered. I would never slam it right away, and would only drop something like that if I already had the board mostly under control. This is one of the pieces that helps me enter the "drain life" phase of my gameplan. Keeping opponents from holding cards in their hands with chains of mephistopheles, uba mask, and omen machine. Without effects like this, and even if you are running a TON of discard spells, it is really hard to keep people hellbent.

So I also just added Inventors' fair as well. Forgot about this one and with all of the useful artifacts I run I can use every tutor effect I can get my hands on!

[Artaud]

T&N is everyone's favourite Tooth and Nail which is usually infinite-combo enabler. You have no outs against infinite combos if they budge. Omen Machine is interesting card for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and probably for him only.

[plaganegra]

T&N is everyone's favourite Tooth and Nail which is usually infinite-combo enabler. You have no outs against infinite combos if they budge. Omen Machine is interesting card for Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and probably for him only.

Ahhh gotcha. So the reason I do not see omen machine as a problem (in this example) is because if they drew that they would likely just cast it anyway. Im only helping them cast it if its early in the game (which I would not drop an omen machine at that stage under most circumstances). See my point? If I have 6 mana to cast omen machine, the T&N player likely has enough to cast that card as well

Sometimes you lose to infinite combos in this game. It is what it is. Is there something I should be using in the deck that is synergistic with my strategy and also useful in stopping such a combo? Last game I played I stopped someone from winning with an alpha strike by reanimating bone shredder with strands of night at instant speed.

[Artaud]

I see you point but see this: You got Uba Mask or Omen Machine out and you suddenly have quite a few DEAD cards in a deck, namely all discard effects that are left. Your topdeck mode will give you these even if you don't need them anymore. But that's a flaw of playing discard anyway - if your opponents are empty handed, your discard does nothing but you may always keep it in hand "just in case" while with Mask or Machine you can't.

[yeti1069]

That's why I like Painful Quandary: provides a source of forced discard when they have a hand, and a punishment when they don't. In particular, it's a solid punishment for topdeck plays.

[plaganegra]

I see you point but see this: You got Uba Mask or Omen Machine out and you suddenly have quite a few DEAD cards in a deck, namely all discard effects that are left. Your topdeck mode will give you these even if you don't need them anymore. But that's a flaw of playing discard anyway - if your opponents are empty handed, your discard does nothing but you may always keep it in hand "just in case" while with Mask or Machine you can't.

I understand your logic but this is also not how it actually plays out in practice. All discard cards in the whole deck are dead draws in discard when your opponents are hellbent. At that point it is all about board control and draining life. You cannot hold cards in hand with this strategy for all the same reasons your opponents cannot hold cards since every discard enchantment is actually a symmetrical effect. Example: Necrogen Mists, Oppression, Bottomless Pit. These stax effects are the primary way to reduce cards in hand, and uba mask and omen machine do not actually "discard" anything - they just prevent draws.

It is possible that besides all of that your point is valid and perhaps I do not need both Uba Mask and Omen Machine in the deck for that purpose. Being that it is tied into the win condition it might be good to have 2 ways to ensure players cannot draw cards. Chains of Mephistopheles is the most efficient card for doing this, but does allow them one natural card draw per turn and a savvy opponent can use that to keep from going hellbent. Even if one player has 1 card and the other two are hellbent it makes activating Tinybones awkward - you really need all of the cards from each opponent gone at the same time to win.

Discard is a tightrope walk where you have to balance everything. It is by far the most difficult archetype to win with that I have ever played personally, but my experience is limited to a lot of the black color pie...

Anyway - once you don't need discard cards in your hand anymore you just want to win as quickly as possible. And that is hopefully where tinybones comes in.

One of the main problems I have thought of with both Uba Mask and Omen Machine is how they interact with noetic scales. I could inadvertantly lock myself out of the game if I am not careful, so I probably need some way to sacrifice a permanent in the deck. Not sure what will allow me to do that aside from something sub-optimal like throne of geth lol. Edit - perhaps something like synod sanctum would work because it also has ETB utility.

OHHHHHH the hoops I jump through lol

Does that change how you think about it? I am really enjoying the back and forth and it is making me think a lot harder about the decision to include omen machine, but so far it still seems like it fits to me. Am I missing something else? It is new territiory - I have never played the card myself. Thanks!

That's why I like Painful Quandary: provides a source of forced discard when they have a hand, and a punishment when they don't. In particular, it's a solid punishment for topdeck plays.

regarding painful quandary - a card that almost makes my list every time I look at it. The problem it has is the same problem any card that allows your opponent to make a choice has - they usually pick the choice I don't want them to. And it costs 5 mana for the privilege. If they choose to just hold cards it still doesn't solve my problem of them not being hellbent. If they are playing something for 5 life, then they are likely ruining my plans anyway

[yeti1069]

My experience has been that once hands start getting light, players are more likely to pay life than discard unless the cards they have are useless. Once they have no cards in hand, most players cast whatever they draw and are forced to pay the life, especially if you have other forced discard out. And if they're holding back instead, that keeps your discard effects relevant and means they aren't doing anything to impede you.

Sure, if they have 4+ cards in hand it doesn't do much, but given the goal for the deck is to get your opponents hellbent this should do a lot of work. And alongside Uba Mask, every spell costs 5 life.

[plaganegra]

My experience has been that once hands start getting light, players are more likely to pay life than discard unless the cards they have are useless. Once they have no cards in hand, most players cast whatever they draw and are forced to pay the life, especially if you have other forced discard out. And if they're holding back instead, that keeps your discard effects relevant and means they aren't doing anything to impede you.

Sure, if they have 4+ cards in hand it doesn't do much, but given the goal for the deck is to get your opponents hellbent this should do a lot of work. And alongside Uba Mask, every spell costs 5 life.

You are definitely warming me up to the idea. What are the top 3 cards you would consider swapping out of my list for Painful Quandary? I think I will try it out

[yeti1069]

My experience has been that once hands start getting light, players are more likely to pay life than discard unless the cards they have are useless. Once they have no cards in hand, most players cast whatever they draw and are forced to pay the life, especially if you have other forced discard out. And if they're holding back instead, that keeps your discard effects relevant and means they aren't doing anything to impede you.

Sure, if they have 4+ cards in hand it doesn't do much, but given the goal for the deck is to get your opponents hellbent this should do a lot of work. And alongside Uba Mask, every spell costs 5 life.

You are definitely warming me up to the idea. What are the top 3 cards you would consider swapping out of my list for Painful Quandary? I think I will try it out

Looks tough to cut some cards.

Elvish Doomsayer -- you don't appear to have many sac outlets, so it doesn't appear that you have much control over when this triggers.
Words of Waste could be super strong, but I don't see a lot of extra draw besides Tinybones, and I don't know if giving up that benefit to force a discard is quite worth it.
Omen Machine -- per the discussion you were having about it previously, although it does combo well with Painful Quandary.
Unearth -- it gets back some of the utility weenies, but none of the best creatures in the deck (except maybe allowing Tiny to die and then reanimate it).

[plaganegra]

My experience has been that once hands start getting light, players are more likely to pay life than discard unless the cards they have are useless. Once they have no cards in hand, most players cast whatever they draw and are forced to pay the life, especially if you have other forced discard out. And if they're holding back instead, that keeps your discard effects relevant and means they aren't doing anything to impede you.

Sure, if they have 4+ cards in hand it doesn't do much, but given the goal for the deck is to get your opponents hellbent this should do a lot of work. And alongside Uba Mask, every spell costs 5 life.

You are definitely warming me up to the idea. What are the top 3 cards you would consider swapping out of my list for Painful Quandary? I think I will try it out

Looks tough to cut some cards.

Elvish Doomsayer -- you don't appear to have many sac outlets, so it doesn't appear that you have much control over when this triggers.
Words of Waste could be super strong, but I don't see a lot of extra draw besides Tinybones, and I don't know if giving up that benefit to force a discard is quite worth it.
Omen Machine -- per the discussion you were having about it previously, although it does combo well with Painful Quandary.
Unearth -- it gets back some of the utility weenies, but none of the best creatures in the deck (except maybe allowing Tiny to die and then reanimate it).

I think out of all of these Elvish Doomsayer is probably the best to cut for quandary because of that trigger. I don't really need to have full control over this trigger anyway, but at the same time it is the weakest creature of this variety.

Words of waste is actually pretty good even if I just use my own draw to its effect to nuke 3 cards from opponents, which I do often. But yeah the most impactful way to use words of waste is with tinybones and another discard enchantment like necrogen mists. Because I can draw a card every turn and it is only 1 mana to turn that draw into discard. I wish I could just have 10 copies of necrogen mists in the deck, but words of waste fills a role here.

In this deck, most of the important creatures can be reanimated by unearth, and the mana cost for the reanimate spell is so low I am essentially netting 1-2 mana and getting an effect whenever I can use unearth. I love using it with something like burglar rat, dauthi voidwalker, cunning lethemancer, or even for utility creatures like plaguecrafter, bone shredder, crypt rats. Also gets both cards in the combo of maralen of the mornsong and opposition agent. If it could get everything in the deck that would be nice, but it gets almost everything. Notable that it does miss the 4 creatures at the top of my curve though.

Omen Machine - this card just needs to be tested. I think this deck mitigates the downsides for it very well and the upside is that it gift wraps and delivers a tinybones drain victory.

So yeah I think Elvish Doomsayer is correct to swap for painful quandary. Thanks I really appreciate the suggestions very much

[yeti1069]

👍

[plaganegra]

A couple new cards in this set to try!