Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[plaganegra]

@plaganegra I like your list and I actually play a similar one. I like to have answer to anything so I always keep Generous Gift and Anguished Unmaking in my deck.

But i still do not see why you play Empty the Laboratory. I can't imagine a situation where you really want that particular card. You need a good board and a lot of mana to get a good value of it. You probably need 5-8 zombies and 7-10 mana, which is a lot for a sorcery mana sink. Problem is, you cannot use Phyrexian Altar to cast it. Plus, the result can be not good if Mike is not on board.

Maybe I'm wrong about that card but I still don't understand that choice (And I still didn't get the chance to play with it unfortunately).

Thanks! That is a good question. I haven't gotten a chance to cast Empty the Laboratory yet either, it hasn't been an option in any of the games I have played with it in my deck so far.

But in theory I think it is good in my build because I can use it with tokens or recursion zombies like silversmote ghoul or prized amalgam. My deck has a few ways to make enough tokens like Tormod, and Wilhelt, or just Varina herself - that this should be pretty easy to do. I don't think you need to cast it for a huge amount of mana either. I would be perfectly happy using this for X=2 or 3 just to get things going, since you cannot miss on the effect, and you dont sacrifice as part of the cost. It has a lot of little things going for it that to me it seems worth including.

[Reya]

But in theory I think it is good in my build because I can use it with tokens or recursion zombies like silversmote ghoul or prized amalgam. My deck has a few ways to make enough tokens like Tormod, and Wilhelt, or just Varina herself - that this should be pretty easy to do. I don't think you need to cast it for a huge amount of mana either. I would be perfectly happy using this for X=2 or 3 just to get things going, since you cannot miss on the effect, and you dont sacrifice as part of the cost. It has a lot of little things going for it that to me it seems worth including.

Yeah I was doing the same reasonment. Since you produce enough tokens, you don't need to sacrifice your reals zombies to get value. Any non token zombie will be better than a token one ! And if you are lucky, you will even find the one you need.

Well, I need to cast that card in a game to see what happens I guess (I could still swap it for Necroduality)

Edit: I realy like the huge variety of builds we can have now. My "sideboard" for Varina became huge!

[yeti1069]

@plaganegra I like your list and I actually play a similar one. I like to have answer to anything so I always keep Generous Gift and Anguished Unmaking in my deck.

But i still do not see why you play Empty the Laboratory. I can't imagine a situation where you really want that particular card. You need a good board and a lot of mana to get a good value of it. You probably need 5-8 zombies and 7-10 mana, which is a lot for a sorcery mana sink. Problem is, you cannot use Phyrexian Altar to cast it. Plus, the result can be not good if Mike is not on board.

Maybe I'm wrong about that card but I still don't understand that choice (And I still didn't get the chance to play with it unfortunately).

I posted a couple game reports a page or two back where I cast Empty for x=3 or 4 to good effect. We can make tokens, and have several expendable bodies in the deck, especially in cards like Gravecrawler, Silversmote Ghoul, or the other auto-rezzers that plaganegra is running. If you have 8-10 mana and the board to throw into it, great, but it's been good for me so far as a value play, trading up my board. Plus, it sets up nicely for a mass reanimate.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah the way I see it Empty is there to turn chaff tokens or tapped attackers post combat into value zombies or untapped blockers. Obviously the dream goal is to have Mike out and sac stuff for value, but it seems like the basement for value is turning tokens or recurrabke creatures into lords or good etb triggers. Theres always a chance it doesn't net you what you want exactly, but I love that you'll never whiff entirely, its always a 1 for 1 trade. And frankly if you're sacrificing tokens that's more like a trade up than an even trade to me.

[ChocoDude]

This! I've had two opportunities now to cast Empty the Laboratory. The first for X=3 and got Mike and two better zombies than tokens, but I can remember what they were. I did discuss it in a previous thread. More recently, the second time I cast it was for X=2 and traded up getting a much needed Zombie Master against a Liesa deck. Swampwalk was absolutely what I needed in that moment. I will say I was lucky in both instances, but...the trade up would've been worth it even if I hadn't got those specific card-zombies that I needed in those moments.

[Reya]

I tried a Empty the Lab for 6. Was really not happy with my 8 mana invested at sorcery speed. The result was not needed to improve my game. For now it's a totally cuttable card for me.

On the same time, Necroduality seems to rise fast in value (from 7.5€ to 9.5€ in Europe in the last day). I hope the it won't be like Meathook Massacre…

[toctheyounger]

I tried a Empty the Lab for 6. Was really not happy with my 8 mana invested at sorcery speed. The result was not needed to improve my game. For now it's a totally cuttable card for me.

On the same time, Necroduality seems to rise fast in value (from 7.5€ to 9.5€ in Europe in the last day). I hope the it won't be like Meathook Massacre…

I think that may be a false hope. I noticed the rise myself. At this point having not taken the leap when it was just under 30NZD I will now be waiting to see what happens 1-2 weeks post release. If it doesn't drop in price, I'll pass on it until it rotates.

[plaganegra]

I tried a Empty the Lab for 6. Was really not happy with my 8 mana invested at sorcery speed. The result was not needed to improve my game. For now it's a totally cuttable card for me.

I guess the best way to evaluate this is to ask - what could you have done with that mana instead? Why were you unhappy with the result? Just bad luck, or a waste of a turn where you could have made a more impactful play? What would the more impactful play have been? If it was the card slot - what other card would you have preferred in its place and why?

I want some context haha, because I am having a hard time understanding how 6 fresh zombie ETBs and +6 zombies in the GY felt not great...

[toctheyounger]

I think its the sort of card there's always a chance it flops right? They can't all be zingers.

But, the more we've got in the yard the more we can be certain what we're digging for, so I think while it might be a bit of a crapshoot in the early game it becomes a much better spell mid or late to find what you're looking for. Knowing it literally cannot miss and all.

[plaganegra]

I think its the sort of card there's always a chance it flops right? They can't all be zingers.

But, the more we've got in the yard the more we can be certain what we're digging for, so I think while it might be a bit of a crapshoot in the early game it becomes a much better spell mid or late to find what you're looking for. Knowing it literally cannot miss and all.

I guess it depends on what your expectations are concerning a flop. If you are sacrificing good zombies hoping to get better ones thats just plain greedy lol. And I could see that being disappointing, but I would argue that is not the best way to play this card. If your deck has a bunch of zombies that are there mainly to swing and trigger Varina, then you likely have a bunch of "replaceable dudes" - so replace them haha.

I used to play cards like Grave Defiler, so when I see a spell designed like this I am just blown away at how low risk it is by design. And the ceiling is very high for what it can do, the floor is you swap one token or underperforming dude for 3 mana and summon a new zombie from your deck. The floor is great TBH.

I think as we play with the card more and more scenarios will be found for optimal play with it. Like the scenarios you already mentioned. As a baseline I would probably cast this post attack for value. Late game it can be an absolute bomb if you win the slot machine. I would treat it like a draw spell most of the time.

I am not saying the jury is out on the spell, but there is a lot to this one that can be thought about for sure. Lots of angles.

Add to it that if you have almost *any* death/ETB trigger - the card is great value, no matter what you hit. This is the list of Zombies I run in my deck that interact meaningfully with empty the laboratory or enable it:

• headless rider
• corpse knight
• relentless dead
• undead augur
• wayward servant
• tainted adversary
• diregraf captain
• midnight reaper
• plague belcher
• putrid goblin
• silversmote ghoul
• gravecrawler
• prized amalgam
• corpse augur
• vengeful dead
• wilhelt, the rotcleaver
• tormod, the desecrator
• gray merchant of asphodel
• mikaeus, the unhallowed

Guess I have 19+ reasons to include it lol

[Nimbaway]

Empty the Laboratory is always going to be a gamble when you can't manipulate the top of your deck, so using it like a Birthing Pod is generally going to feel disappointing. It's not a card you always are happy to see, but I don't mind pitching it to Varina, Lich Queen either, especially now we have our Zombiemancer.

The card just shines more in aristocrat like builds, as you can get extra value there with triggers. For the mass reanimation plan it just becomes a tad too mana expensive to gain extra value, as just rather have the mana to protect my reanimation spell.

It's a situational card and certainly not a card you must run, so it getting the axe at some point is quite understandable. For now I enjoy the incidental value that it brings, but I like it most with Tombstone Stairwell out, those tokens get sacrificed anyways so turning them into permanents is a nice thing. And I don't really mind the card with Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver , the decayed zombie tokens I'll happily trade in as well.

[Reya]

I tried a Empty the Lab for 6. Was really not happy with my 8 mana invested at sorcery speed. The result was not needed to improve my game. For now it's a totally cuttable card for me.

I guess the best way to evaluate this is to ask - what could you have done with that mana instead? Why were you unhappy with the result? Just bad luck, or a waste of a turn where you could have made a more impactful play? What would the more impactful play have been? If it was the card slot - what other card would you have preferred in its place and why?

I want some context haha, because I am having a hard time understanding how 6 fresh zombie ETBs and +6 zombies in the GY felt not great...

I just feel it's not necessary. We can dig enough with Varina. But after reading the last comments, I understand the card is a good engine and there is some nice interactions and situations where you will have great value, even with a lot of mana at sorcery speed. Like Wilhelt or Headless Rider on battlefield, after a swing with Varina, with tokens. Plus, I can't find something to take the place of Empty for now

[plaganegra]

I can definitely see the card feeling not necessary in a lot of builds honestly, I think of this card as a flex card. I'm sure it adds a lot of fun factor though!

[Arebennian]

So a couple of people have questioned the brick-like qualities of Necroduality. anyone else had any play testing with it ?

And what of Overcharged Amalgam? Does anyone see an actual place for it in a tuned list?

[Reya]

Personally I think we don't have room for Overcharged Amalgam. Holding 4 mana for a counterspell is too much. We have access to great and cheap counter spell like Drain, Fierce, Swan.

[pokken]

It counters Bojuka Bog. Autoinclude for any non-CEDH list imho.

There's a solid argument for playing Disallow in a graveyard themed deck.

[toctheyounger]

It counters Bojuka Bog. Autoinclude for any non-CEDH list imho.

There's a solid argument for playing Disallow in a graveyard themed deck.

I'm here, but disallow is terrible as a non permanent spell. As a creature I think Amalgam has the potential to be quite a lot more useful, but moreso with the mana altars than in any other context. Once you're mitigating that cmc I think it starts to look a lot more viable.

[pokken]

I'm here, but disallow is terrible as a non permanent spell

I don't want to sidetrack too hard but I would not sleep on the ability to stuff triggered/activated abilities. I play Disallow before Counterspell in most decks. The breadth of effects is just huge.

The number of times I have utterly lost to effects like Emrakul, the Promised End makes me really think about it.

I doubt we have room for either, but Amalgam being a zombie is just so important. Packing interaction in the zombie slots, and compounding it with evasive zombies is just so important.

[toctheyounger]

I'm here, but disallow is terrible as a non permanent spell

I don't want to sidetrack too hard but I would not sleep on the ability to stuff triggered/activated abilities. I play Disallow before Counterspell in most decks. The breadth of effects is just huge.

The number of times I have utterly lost to effects like Emrakul, the Promised End makes me really think about it.

I doubt we have room for either, but Amalgam being a zombie is just so important. Packing interaction in the zombie slots, and compounding it with evasive zombies is just so important.

I don't disagree and I guess I should clarify; I like what disallow does, I don't like what it costs. Being able to turn off someone's Aetherflux Reservoir is super good, although I must admit in my experience it does often end up just getting used as a Cancel. Its in that weird place where utility is great, but a 3 cmc counterspell is not a good rate, even if the counter is non-conditional.

Amalgam I think gets a pass for being a zombie, and worse case scenario we can just turf it, or not use its exploit trigger. Its not dead weight (at least in a metaphorical sense) like an instant would be, but I guess we just have to wait and see if it holds its own.

[plaganegra]

I also like what Disallow, Overcharged Amalgam, and even Stifle do. I don't think any of these cards are worth running if you want a highly efficient zombie deck, however.

Personally I don't think I can afford to hold open 4 mana for something like the Amalgam. It is just WAY to expensive for a reactive spell in a midrange/aggro zombie deck IMO. I still believe that for counters to work effectively in this deck and not get into the way of the machine that Varina can be - they need to be "free" or very low cmc and versatile. I run only Swan Song, Pact of Negation, and Fierce Guardianship. Recently I cut Flawless Maneuver, which I used as another free counterspell. If I were afraid of a triggered effect I would sooner run Stifle over a 4cmc zombie with a conditional counter effect (I don't think I would ever run Stifle though, just illustrating how far down the list the Amalgam is for me). I dont see how this is affordable in the highly contested 4cmc slot, or why it would be chosen over a much more efficient interactive spell.

I just don't come up with scenarios when piloting my deck where I am able to keep open 3+ mana to protect an important spell I am going to cast (like a mass reanimate) or keep that mana open instead of casting zombies - you can't anticipate when someone is going to drop a random bojuka bog. I would always rather tap out and cast zombies and advance my board or GY than hold open mana for countermagic - it is counterintuitive to what Varina wants to do. Free counterspells let me tap out to cast late game spells and telegraph I do not have a counterspell, when I do. It is just way better to me and falls in line with enabling the main gameplan, rather than holding it back.

Bojuka Bog is entirely recoverable event at times (not always), and I don't fear it personally. I fear things like Rest in Peace and the like with continuous effects. It is also a great reason not to put every grand-slam zombie into your graveyard at once. Something I am acutely aware of when I am using a GY tutor since the Bog sees decent play in my group since it is such a low cost to run in any black deck.

Ironically - the last time I got Bogged it was MY OWN bog that was stolen from an Opposition Agent on a tutor - I was playing my Yawgmoth deck. I cut the bog from my Varina deck recently for more fetches. At this point I think I only want a couple ETB tapped lands that are really worth it, like the black bounce lands and crypt of agadeem.

Edit - Necroduality is going to see another printing in the double feature set, I think it's fall down to reasonable prices is inevitable, I hope. Back down to $18.50 presale in US. It probably isn't an auto-include in Varina anyway though. I still feel it should be less than $10. I am sure a lot of people will buy it in the first 2 weeks which will help maintain its price, and then it will fall after that stage like many cards do.

[Falkenbach]

On Overcharged Amalgam, if you run things like Apprentice Necromancer or Necromancy you can interact with it from the graveyard at instant speed. Its a lategame zombie that you dont play on curve. So while it being in the crowded 4cmc slot, you can always spend the mana on varinas ability if nothing comes up worth exploit countering. But I can see why its low on some peoples list. Very few seem to run Necromancy probably cause its so expensive nowadays :/ (if you have very few zombies with etbs like Rot Hulk or Gray Merchant of Asphodel its less worth it aswell)

[Reya]

Another annoying point with Overcharged Amalgam: if you mass reanimate during your turn, you won't be able to counter any ETB from opponent's creatures (your owns ETB will go on the stack first and resolve last...).

The fact that you must exploit before countering can be a little bit problematic in some situations. For me, it's clearly not a card we absolutely want. There is so much better counter effects available. It's probably a very nice card but non a must-have in a Varina shell.

[yeti1069]

So, Wilhelt has been doing some serious work in a game I'm in now. Varina got turned into a mana rock, and was definitely getting some more hate as I was charging ahead. Got out Wayward Servant and Corpse Knight, and I was using a few limited sacrifice effects to generate tokens and ping opponents. Since I got most of that down under interaction, I was able to bring the control player down to 1 life before Cyc Rift. Was able to grind them out afterward, but Wilhelt generating tokens was a big part of doing that.

Kept a hand with a bunch of tap lands, and came out slow.
-Dropped Mystic Remora on turn 2.
-Paid for it on 3 and couldn't play anything besides another tapped land. Ended up drawing 5 cards off of it.
-Let it go on 4. Had been getting milled a bit by Phenax, God of Deception shenanigans, so I played out a mana rock and Diregraf Colossus.
-Drew Sol Ring, and got milled for quite a bit, with Ashiok, Dream Render ready to exile yards, so I cast and flashed back Sevinne's Reclamation to get back Warward Servant and 2 lands, which I then used to cast Apprentice Necromancer.
-Next turn untapped with quite a bit of mana. Ashiok got removed before it could activate again, which was nice. Played out the Corpse Knight, Varina, and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver, pinging the table for 18 damage after accounting for Silversmote Ghoul returning at ETB, and Wilhelt sacrificing a creature and making a decayed zombie (2/creature, and a 2/2 zombie/creature). Swung for a little damage, and looted with Varina, discarding Tidehollow Sculler.
-Varina got turned into a mana rock before my turn, so no more looting. Rashmi, Eternities Crafter control player took an extra turn, and tapped out for something else before that turn began. On their end step I used Apprentice Necromancer to get back Tidehollow Sculler, which revealed Cyclonic Rift, Flood of Tears, and some other nonsense. I wasn't sure they realized they'd be getting back whatever I stole at the beginning of the extra turn's end step, and had some difficulty picking the best target. Figured I'd take Cyc Rift to force them to consider Flood of Tears on their turn. Instead, they got back a bunch of stuff from the yard, loaded an Isochron Scepter with a removal spell, with Seedborn Muse in play, and passed. Tidehollow dying at ETB made a zombie token before they were ready to remove something on the next untap, and put them at 1 life.
-Cyc Rifted before my turn, and knew they had 1 counterspell in hand, and the removal spell on the Scepter. So I cast Sol Ring, Generous Gift on the Scepter, Wayward Servant into the counterspell, then Corpse Knight and Diregraf Colossus to finish them off, since they didn't have a way to stop those two from resolving. After that, it was easy cleanup of the other two.

I think I actually skipped a turn in the recap here...there was one where I swung in for 12 damage against Rashmi thanks to Zombie Master + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Notably, all my mass reanimate spells had been milled, as had most of my individual reanimation effects, including Unholy Grotto and the newly added Crucible of Worlds. Snapcaster Mage is still in the deck until I get the new Archaeo-zombie, so that would have been a play if I got him. Only ended up getting to trigger Varina twice all game. Think I ended the game with about 25 cards left in my library, and about 40-50 in the yard. Interestingly, if Phenax had gotten another turn, I might have been unable to attack with my board for fear of milling off Varina's trigger.

[yeti1069]

Another annoying point with Overcharged Amalgam: if you mass reanimate during your turn, you won't be able to counter any ETB from opponent's creatures (your owns ETB will go on the stack first and resolve last...).

The fact that you must exploit before countering can be a little bit problematic in some situations. For me, it's clearly not a card we absolutely want. There is so much better counter effects available. It's probably a very nice card but non a must-have in a Varina shell.

Unless you are also getting Mikaeus and a sac outlet, since you can sac the Amalgam with triggers on the stack, and have it return on top of everything, but that's a corner case.

[plaganegra]

I played one game with Varina last night and it was interesting. I forgot I didnt have the new repository skaab in my deck and planned an entire game winning turn assuming I could get it with intuition and two mass reanimate spells. Previously I discarded bidding and I had 18 zombies in my GY with tons of mana to use. Realized the card was not in my deck while searching - what a BUMMER lol. Lost to scurry oak combo before I got to go for another turn.

Repository Skaab is such an essential component to a zombie deck.

I also jinxed myself saying I never ever lost to mill in edh. Well it finally happened last night, I wasnt playing Varina, and my opponent wasnt playing a mill deck. He had a wall deck with Arcades and something in there was making me mill a crapload of cards every turn. Finally he got me since the whole board was locked down. Which is great because I am always his mill target, and he has gotten within 5 cards of milling me several games in the past. He said now he can move on to another target bow for mill wins since he finally got me hahaha!

@yeti1069 and anyone else finding themselves playing in long grindy games where you have the opportunity to build the kind of board that could make you lose to mill. You can always put an elixir of immortality in your deck. You can get it back with sevinne's. And you can pop it after a mass reanimate to skirt the downside. I was thinking about it. Maybe theres a better option but that one came to mind.