Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

Yeah I made a second judgment about Epiphany. Since we play Nykthos and Crypt, we can come back from nowhere with at 8-10 mana Epiphany... but for Teferi insight, can we just run Fact or Fiction instead ? It's a great card to dig and fill the graveyard in the same time.

I am really steering more and more clear of ways to draw cards that are highly board state dependent or even sniff of winmore. Teferi's Ageless Insight is a fine card, but if you've got varina on board and are doing your thing, you're already in a good state most of the time; percentage of the time I would rather see a good zombie than a draw doubler is pretty high.

So I am leaning hard toward Epiphany at the Drownyard and Fact or Fiction (or even Painful Truths) effects that are always good regardless of our board state. Kindred Discovery is the sole exception I have right now and my thinking on it is that it's basically decent if I have even 1 zombie in hand, since I can cantrip that zombie, then keep attacking with it to draw cards.

I think I would play Alhammarret's Archive before insight because the lifegain for racing is significant. But I don't intend to play either. Big, splashy, but extremely varina dependent to be good.

This is largely anecdotal but my experience with the draw doublers with Varina is that once one of those hits, people are a lot less likely to let you be once it drops. They immediately will try to kill either varina or the doubler, vs. letting you swing out when you're not drawing so many cards. The mind game there is that if you're getting your card advantage with Varina by discarding things that accumulate incremental value (Master of Death, Sevinne's Reclamation, Dread Return, lands with Crucible of Worlds) you get far less attention.

I'm still right on the fence about cutting Kindred Discovery since it's a huge splashy effect too that pulls a lot of aggro. But because it's strong even if something happens to Varina, I keep it for now

I think I add Fact or Fiction before adding any other draw effects, and honestly probably should play Fof before Epiphany at the Drownyard -- I just really enjoy the limitless ceiling on Epiphany and it also allowing me to draw my entire deck off of infinite mana, or most of it off of Altars.

TL:DR - Those games where you play varina and a draw doubler and go bananas are the type of thing to inspire bias in people; you win really triumphantly and it's memorable. But it's also by far the exception my experience.

[Arebennian]

Epiphany at the Drownyard: each time I drew this card it was disappointing. It cost too much mana and I rarely want to keep all my mana open in order to cast EoT in the hope of finding what I need. If we want a powerful mana sink, Empty the Laboratory will probably do a better job. Or we can swap this for Mystical Tutor or Intuition.

So I play epiphany *and* mystical and intuition, and it seems like it ought to be pretty good mostly at getting you out of situations where you're in a bad way. It's possible I should be playing Fact or Fiction first, but my thought with it is that if I draw it off the top when I have no cards after an exile sweeper it should be great. And yet it's passable at hitting land drops early in the game too.

I do think the deck wants a non-board-dependent couple draw effects but I'm not 100% sure what they should be. I've thought about Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Rhystic Study, Fact or Fiction and Painful Truths.

I'm just kind of a hater on Rhystic Study effects for my own personal use, but it also has some problems being kind of poor as a late game draw since you can't just get cards right now.

Yeah I made a second judgment about Epiphany. Since we play Nykthos and Crypt, we can come back from nowhere with at 8-10 mana Epiphany... but for Teferi insight, can we just run Fact or Fiction instead ? It's a great card to dig and fill the graveyard in the same time.

Is Nykthos really propelling you forward with mana if you are trying to 'come back from nowhere'? I can see Crypt helping, but Nykthos?

Just interested in the play pattern.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I made a second judgment about Epiphany. Since we play Nykthos and Crypt, we can come back from nowhere with at 8-10 mana Epiphany... but for Teferi insight, can we just run Fact or Fiction instead ? It's a great card to dig and fill the graveyard in the same time.

I am really steering more and more clear of ways to draw cards that are highly board state dependent or even sniff of winmore. Teferi's Ageless Insight is a fine card, but if you've got varina on board and are doing your thing, you're already in a good state most of the time; percentage of the time I would rather see a good zombie than a draw doubler is pretty high.

So I am leaning hard toward Epiphany at the Drownyard and Fact or Fiction (or even Painful Truths) effects that are always good regardless of our board state. Kindred Discovery is the sole exception I have right now and my thinking on it is that it's basically decent if I have even 1 zombie in hand, since I can cantrip that zombie, then keep attacking with it to draw cards.

I think I would play Alhammarret's Archive before insight because the lifegain for racing is significant. But I don't intend to play either. Big, splashy, but extremely varina dependent to be good.

This is largely anecdotal but my experience with the draw doublers with Varina is that once one of those hits, people are a lot less likely to let you be once it drops. They immediately will try to kill either varina or the doubler, vs. letting you swing out when you're not drawing so many cards. The mind game there is that if you're getting your card advantage with Varina by discarding things that accumulate incremental value (Master of Death, Sevinne's Reclamation, Dread Return, lands with Crucible of Worlds) you get far less attention.

I'm still right on the fence about cutting Kindred Discovery since it's a huge splashy effect too that pulls a lot of aggro. But because it's strong even if something happens to Varina, I keep it for now

I think I add Fact or Fiction before adding any other draw effects, and honestly probably should play Fof before Epiphany at the Drownyard -- I just really enjoy the limitless ceiling on Epiphany and it also allowing me to draw my entire deck off of infinite mana, or most of it off of Altars.

TL:DR - Those games where you play varina and a draw doubler and go bananas are the type of thing to inspire bias in people; you win really triumphantly and it's memorable. But it's also by far the exception my experience.

A pretty accurate take for me. Draw doublers have come up so seldom for me its hard to get a really good take on them, but it does feel like they're surplus to requirement.

The way I think about it is I'm never going to be mad seeing a zombie off the top deck, but there's definitely situations I'm not interest in Insight. Its definitely a slot I'm looking to open up.

[pokken]

Is Nykthos really propelling you forward with mana if you are trying to 'come back from nowhere'? I can see Crypt helping, but Nykthos?

Just interested in the play pattern.

It's surprisingly common to me how many times I net mana from nykthos because of all the black pips in the deck, even when I'm behind, but I usually lean more toward coffers if I think I am going to be struggling myself.

[Reya]

Is Nykthos really propelling you forward with mana if you are trying to 'come back from nowhere'? I can see Crypt helping, but Nykthos?

Just interested in the play pattern.

Nykthos has been good each time I played it and you often gain more mana than the 3 you have to invest for activate it. Probably Coffers is better since you don't need a board presence but it doesn't tap for mana directly and you want Urborg on the battlefield to get a huge value. Coffers is probably amazing in a list like the one from Pokken with all the land tutor it packs. For now I stay with Nykthos and Crypt to get mana with board, graveyard or both.

[toctheyounger]

Is Nykthos really propelling you forward with mana if you are trying to 'come back from nowhere'? I can see Crypt helping, but Nykthos?

Just interested in the play pattern.

Frankly, no. If your board is empty its a Wastes, which is the basement for it. The ceiling is high, but post board wipe it's a rough proposition. This is where Coffers, or Crypt of Agadeem seem preferable - Crypt would be stellar post wipe in fact.

All that said it depends how you define 'from nowhere'. If your board is blank it's worse than a basic. So long as you have more than 4 pips of any one kind you're producing double the mana you put in to use it's devotion ability.

[toctheyounger]

Nykthos has been good each time I played it and you often gain more mana than the 3 you have to invest for activate it. Probably Coffers is better since you don't need a board presence but it doesn't tap for mana directly and you want Urborg on the battlefield to get a huge value. Coffers is probably amazing in a list like the one from Pokken with all the land tutor it packs. For now I stay with Nykthos and Crypt to get mana with board, graveyard or both.

I have similar experiences, but I am probably going to add Coffers and Wayfarer into my build as is. I had been thinking about replacing Archaeomancer's Map regardless. It's fine, but not stellar. The burgeoning ability is often a lot less good than you'd like it to be, so I think it needs a home elsewhere, which makes the swap relatively easy.

[pokken]

Weathered Wayfarer just does so much dang work - I did like a hundred goldfishes today and it's crazy how often it just utterly fixes hands that would otherwise be sketchy keeps. Does so much work for 2-4 mana.

I just can't fit enough plains in my deck to support Archaeomancer's Map unfortunately. It's such a bummer it isn't either Plains or any basic. Really a missed opportunity.

[Reya]

Made some changes for my next test session:

Teferi's Ageless --> Intuition
Nykthos --> Coffers
Rhystic Study --> Sevinn Reclamation

[Falkenbach]

At the moment i run Land Tax and Expedition Map would Weathered Wayfarer be a better substitute for one of them i do run field/ cabbal coffers / nykthos and more utility lands.
Only thing holding me back is that its not a zombie.. but neither are land tax and map -.-

[pokken]

At the moment i run Land Tax and Expedition Map would Weathered Wayfarer be a better substitute for one of them i do run field/ cabbal coffers / nykthos and more utility lands.
Only thing holding me back is that its not a zombie.. but neither are land tax and map -.-

I would prioritize Weathered Wayfarer over Land Tax. Does most of the same stuff but also finds specific lands. The card advantage is not as explosive, but getting specific lands is really powerful. It's only 3 mana to get coffers+urborg if they leave it alone, hard to top tha

(I should note that I would run all three; Land Tax is disturbingly close to W for Teferi's Ageless Insight in Varina. As soon as I get another copy I'll find room for it )

[ChocoDude]

I've been playtesting Necroduality as a proxy and it's come up twice so far. Both times I ended up pitching it the graveyard as I was coming from behind. I wish it did something the moment it ETBs or upon attack like Kindred Disco. I'm going to play with it a bit longer, but so far I'm tempted to swap it for more card draw. I dropped Epiphany at the Drownyard awhile back because I frankly like Fact or Fiction better as its more efficient at that specific CMC. I would often pitch Epiphany as I felt like I really wanted to get more big bang for the buck the moment I had it and rarely had that opportunity in the games where I saw it. I may add Epiphany or Painful Truths in for Necroduality should I still not see much benefit from Necro

I am excited as someone has committed to sending me Headless Rider via Cardsphere. IMHO, it's the best card for our decks from Crimson Vow. Slam dunk!! (I'm also receiving a Repository Skaab from another Cardsphere user. Yay!!) I've sent my percentage for Necroduality at 40% (currently $8.79) as I'm not entirely sold on it, but if someone wants to send it to me for that...hey, I'll take it.

@plaganegra I'd like to thank you for your comments about Corpse Augur vs Graveborn Muse. I lost a game recently to Muse killing myself. I previously had Augur in my deck, but I never saw it. But your words about being more in control of Augur's effect versus the Muse really stuck with me and I made the swap between the two, adding Augur back in. If I add in more sac outlets then its effect is even more controllable. Thanks!!

[plaganegra]

@ChocoDude I do love Muse and Augur both so much but if you only have room for 1, the Augur is the clear victor to me. It has a much much higher floor than Muse does because even if your GY gets exiled it still can target anyones to get the effect. Because it is a death trigger and not an upkeep trigger your opponents will likely just let you do it. Hardly worth an exile effect to stop usually. It is probably the most efficient draw zombie we have. Compare it to all of the draw spells being mentioned, this one is on a zombie body that can be re-used, can swing, and can do all the other zombie things. The downside is, of course, it is usually slower to get the cards.

Amazing card. 10/10 would recommend lol

[toctheyounger]

At the moment i run Land Tax and Expedition Map would Weathered Wayfarer be a better substitute for one of them i do run field/ cabbal coffers / nykthos and more utility lands.
Only thing holding me back is that its not a zombie.. but neither are land tax and map -.-

There's no reason not to run all of them. Map has been good for me, and I trust to @pokken's playtesting with Wayfarer, but for me, Land Tax has been a really heavy lifter whenever I've had it in play. There's no reason not to grab 3 basics every time until you're out, and even if you don't drop them all to play (you almost certainly won't), they make for a great way to curate your hand well with Varina. If you have no zombies to drop to the yard, drop these. It keeps your hand size up, makes sure you hit your colours, and thins your deck quite quickly. I know one of the more slim advantages with fetches is that, even though it is really marginal percentages, the ability to be able to take land drops out of your deck again and again adds up to drawing more quality when you draw otherwise. It's the same here - it basically makes sure that 9 times out of ten*, you get an improved draw for turn and filter from Varina, as well as a guaranteed land drop.

It isn't cheap, and I'm very lucky to have a copy in here, not normally a card I could spring for, but it's worth every cent here. Far better than the draw doublers, with maybe the exception of Kindred Discovery, just because the ceiling is insanely high on that card. Still, very solid and given its CMC I think it's a lock here myself.

*Nine times out of ten, it works every time.

[pokken]

here's no reason not to grab 3 basics every time until you're out, and even if you don't drop them all to play (you almost certainly won't), they make for a great way to curate your hand well with Varina. If you have no zombies to drop to the yard, drop these. It keeps your hand size up, makes sure you hit your colours, and thins your deck quite quickly.

Yeah I mean if I pull all 11 basics out of my deck that is not trivial anymore. It's something like a 10% increase in my draw quality (since I go from say, 30/88 lands to 19/77 lands, so 66% good draws to 75% or something).

But you really nailed why it's so good, Varina is not that dissimilar to Scroll Rack in the command zone, and so she combos with Land Tax in the same way.

It's really hard to beat that mana efficiency, so it's definitely arguable.

There's maybe a better argument to be made that Expedition Map is worse, although I really like that it doesn't require white mana, so it can also fix in a pinch.

[toctheyounger]

here's no reason not to grab 3 basics every time until you're out, and even if you don't drop them all to play (you almost certainly won't), they make for a great way to curate your hand well with Varina. If you have no zombies to drop to the yard, drop these. It keeps your hand size up, makes sure you hit your colours, and thins your deck quite quickly.

Yeah I mean if I pull all 11 basics out of my deck that is not trivial anymore. It's something like a 10% increase in my draw quality (since I go from say, 30/88 lands to 19/77 lands, so 66% good draws to 75% or something).

But you really nailed why it's so good, Varina is not that dissimilar to Scroll Rack in the command zone, and so she combos with Land Tax in the same way.

It's really hard to beat that mana efficiency, so it's definitely arguable.

There's maybe a better argument to be made that Expedition Map is worse, although I really like that it doesn't require white mana, so it can also fix in a pinch.

I like that Map doesn't have the 'less lands than an opponent' clause. Beyond that Reclamation gets it back and it gets anything. To me, it and Wayfarer are of a kind, and Tax is a different beast, theyre just not the same role in the deck.

[Falkenbach]

here's no reason not to grab 3 basics every time until you're out, and even if you don't drop them all to play (you almost certainly won't), they make for a great way to curate your hand well with Varina. If you have no zombies to drop to the yard, drop these. It keeps your hand size up, makes sure you hit your colours, and thins your deck quite quickly.

Yeah I mean if I pull all 11 basics out of my deck that is not trivial anymore. It's something like a 10% increase in my draw quality (since I go from say, 30/88 lands to 19/77 lands, so 66% good draws to 75% or something).

But you really nailed why it's so good, Varina is not that dissimilar to Scroll Rack in the command zone, and so she combos with Land Tax in the same way.

It's really hard to beat that mana efficiency, so it's definitely arguable.

There's maybe a better argument to be made that Expedition Map is worse, although I really like that it doesn't require white mana, so it can also fix in a pinch.

I like that Map doesn't have the 'less lands than an opponent' clause. Beyond that Reclamation gets it back and it gets anything. To me, it and Wayfarer are of a kind, and Tax is a different beast, theyre just not the same role in the deck.

Are you still running any mana rocks Toc? Sol ring / Arcane signet ? I run both still. But thinking now about swapping arcane signet for the Wayfarer as it feels really strong. You can basically draw 1 land every turn for 1 mana with it and that might be even better value than Arcane signet. The signet does fix your mana and can still get you a 1 drop on turn 2.. but as Pokken mentioned whats the point on being able to cast Varina on turn 3 if you have no or only one zombie to swing with. You can instead drop one of the 4 drop zombies (Muse, Wilhelt Vengeful Dead) first and varina on turn 4. But then you have 1 spare mana left if you keep dropping lands.

[toctheyounger]

Are you still running any mana rocks Toc? Sol ring / Arcane signet ? I run both still. But thinking now about swapping arcane signet for the Wayfarer as it feels really strong. You can basically draw 1 land every turn for 1 mana with it and that might be even better value than Arcane signet. The signet does fix your mana and can still get you a 1 drop on turn 2.. but as Pokken mentioned whats the point on being able to cast Varina on turn 3 if you have no or only one zombie to swing with. You can instead drop one of the 4 drop zombies (Muse, Wilhelt Vengeful Dead) first and varina on turn 4. But then you have 1 spare mana left if you keep dropping lands.

I do run both, although I have tossed up dropping Sol. It seems a little crazy to do that, but a lot of the stuff we want here is heavily colored. It probably isn't the right idea to pull, but I've been tempted. Signet I think is probably more questionable, abd becomes less necessary the more replete your land base becomes with optimal pieces.

[Reya]

Had a game with Kindred Discovery. The card can be way too much. I almost decked myself and was forced to cast Generous Gift on Discovery before attacking for lethal and finished the game with 6 cards in library.

I realy like Discovery as a draw doubler because it's not Varina depandent and it does not double all your draws, which can be critical, but not 100% a lock for me. I could totaly swap it for Necroduality for example. But in the same time, Necroduality seems to be realy great if you mass reanimate (but most of the time, you have probably already won at that point). Necro will help you to recover after a wipe too. I don't know which one is better.

One advantage of Necroduality is you can have it and Stairwell in the same time !

[pokken]

Had a game with Kindred Discovery. The card can be way too much. I almost decked myself and was forced to cast Generous Gift on Discovery before attacking for lethal and finished the game with 6 cards in library.

I realy like Discovery as a draw doubler because it's not Varina depandent and it does not double all your draws, which can be critical, but not 100% a lock for me. I could totaly swap it for Necroduality for example. But in the same time, Necroduality seems to be realy great if you mass reanimate (but most of the time, you have probably already won at that point). Necro will help you to recover after a wipe too. I don't know which one is better.

One advantage of Necroduality is you can have it and Stairwell in the same time !

If i die to Tombstone Stairwell and Kindred Discovery i would consider that a win whether I actually win or not

I have enough infinite combos and ways to kill people that I think it's basically impossible for me to get decked that way though, tbh.

[yeti1069]

I've decked myself with Varina 2 or 3 times.

[toctheyounger]

I too have had it happen. Its funny. Its also unlikely to happen given most of our wincons are redundant in multiple copies but there is still the chace that either they just don't get yiu past an enormous life total or you just don't see them in time.

I generally don't mind either way in all fairness. Both cards are insane in their own right and they combine to make something truly hideous.

[yeti1069]

I think more often I've just run into tons of interaction. Often, when reading some of the comments on these boards, I feel like I must run in an unusual meta with way more interaction that most people here. I often do not win off a single mass reanimate.

[plaganegra]

My Meta has a lot of interaction, which is why I run a few free counterspells, several removal spells, and emphasize recursion in my list. Board wipes happen a lot, enchantments and artifacts rarely survive when they are a threat (phyrexian altar is always a big target, so I usually sock it away in my hand until my win turn if that is my plan in that game). I take a lot of time to set up a win in advance of casting my mass reanimate spells. I don't always win when I get one, but usually I do. Most of my wins are from zombie beatdown and value though. This deck is very resilient and can handle interaction better than other creature decks I run by a long shot!

I think I am going to cut Snapcaster Mage now that I have Repository Skaab in my list. Snappy is a better card though. I am also adding in Weathered Wayfarer after much consideration. I think the ability to "draw" a card each turn it is out is amazing regardless of the lands you are getting, on top of the fixing and ramp potential.

Personally I have never been decked in any game of EDH, ever. Games usually end long before that becomes a thing, and we even have a mill player in our group lol - he usually doesn't run that deck against Varina though tbh.

On Kindred Discovery, The main reason I love this card over all the other draw spells is because it goes all in on the zombie strategy and you can get value out of it immediately, and if there are no answers you *should* win because of the insane card advantage. If you are going through your whole deck and not finding a win before you deck yourself, I think that might just be a side-effect of not running any combos, or possibly a less efficient build. Which is not a criticism in any way...

For anyone who is interested, this is my post- Crimson Vow List:

SPOILER

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+1 Bloodstained Mire / -1 Sunken Ruins (going all in on fetches)
+1 Weathered Wayfarer / -1 Changeling Outcast
+1 Nightscape Familiar / -1 Lazotep Reaver (Helps cast Varina, & 9 other spells, not sure of this slot atm)
+1 Headless Rider / -1 Flawless Maneuver
+1 Necroduality / -1 Noxious Ghoul
+1 Repository Skaab / -1 Snapcaster Mage

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander:

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Creatures:

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Champion of the Perished

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Gravecrawler

1 Shambling Ghast

1 Stitcher's Supplier

1 Weathered Wayfarer

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Binding Mummy

1 Corpse Knight

1 Lazotep Chancellor

1 Nightscape Familiar

1 Putrid Goblin

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shapesharer

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Tainted Adversary

1 Undead Augur

1 Wayward Servant

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Headless Rider

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Plague Belcher

1 Prized Amalgam

1 Silversmote Ghoul

1 Corpse Augur

1 Repository Skaab

1 Tormod, the Desecrator

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver

1 Wonder

1 God-Eternal Oketra

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born

1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

Mana Rocks:

1 Chrome Mox

1 Mana Crypt

1 Mox Diamond

1 Sol Ring

1 Arcane Signet

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Phyrexian Altar

Interaction:

1 Pact of Negation

1 Swan Song

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Vanquish the Horde

Utility:

1 Entomb

1 Buried Alive

1 Intuition

1 Empty the Laboratory

1 Sevinne's Reclamation

1 Living Death

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Enchantments:

1 Land Tax

1 Necroduality

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Kindred Discovery

Lands (35):

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Arid Mesa

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Polluted Delta

1 Scalding Tarn

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Prismatic Vista

2 Island

2 Plains

4 Swamp

1 Godless Shrine

1 Watery Grave

1 Scrubland

1 Tundra

1 Underground Sea

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Command Tower

1 Crypt of Agadeem

1 Dimir Aqueduct

1 Morphic Pool

1 Orzhov Basilica

1 Underground River

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

Approximate Total Cost:

[Reya]

@plaganegra I like your list and I actually play a similar one. I like to have answer to anything so I always keep Generous Gift and Anguished Unmaking in my deck.

But i still do not see why you play Empty the Laboratory. I can't imagine a situation where you really want that particular card. You need a good board and a lot of mana to get a good value of it. You probably need 5-8 zombies and 7-10 mana, which is a lot for a sorcery mana sink. Problem is, you cannot use Phyrexian Altar to cast it. Plus, the result can be not good if Mike is not on board.

Maybe I'm wrong about that card but I still don't understand that choice (And I still didn't get the chance to play with it unfortunately).