Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

And I just ordered a billion $0.10 zombies and some other random jank so I can make the ultra aggro list if I want =p

Dreadmalkin and Skirk Ridge Exhumer lookin to do some work!

any excuse at all to play Lazotep Plating too.

(And I got a cheap God-Eternal Oketra just for fun since I think that might be a pretty good finisher in the super cheap list).

The complete list of stuff I didn't have:

• dreadmalkin
• vizier of the scorpion
• skirk ridge exhumer
• god-eternal oketra
• binding mummy
• silversmote ghoul
• lazotep reaver
• death baron
• tainted adversary

I feel like I might wind up liking Baron a lot given how good deathtouch always is.

[toctheyounger]

Well I finally got some gameplay in myself today. I lost both games and learned some things.

Firstly, I am rusty af and this deck requires good sequencing. I did ok but definitely got that decision paralysis going at points and flubbed some opportunities for advantage, threat assessed badly. Nothing much to be done about it other than get back on the horse and tighten up my plays.

Secondly, %$#%$#% I need more early game play. I want to expand the 1 and 2 drop area. I know pokken has talked wayfarer recently and that could be a good avenue to go down. There's definitely some recent release zombies I want to get in but my LGS is still having a really weird time with inventory. We've been locked down so that could be it but his online storefront is just showing out of stock everywhere, even with recent sets. I may just have to send him a laundry list to see if he has things and hasn't bothered updating his stock or whatever.

Thirdly signets are dead weight. They're not what I want to be playing at any stage of the game, and for that reason I'm out. I also had some pretty bad flood going on in these games, so with that I do wonder if lowering the curve allows me to shave the land count back a touch too. I'll note that Expedition Map was excellent and between that and Land Tax I don't really know that there's a major need for an abundance of caution there.

I saw virtually none of the new cards added; I dropped a Wilhelt shortly before dying to dragons to the face one game, but there was that little interaction that I couldn't say for sure it was a good add. I drew a card from him so thats not nothing!

[pokken]

Thirdly signets are dead weight. They're not what I want to be playing at any stage of the game, and for that reason I'm out. I also had some pretty bad flood going on in these games, so with that I do wonder if lowering the curve allows me to shave the land count back a touch too. I'll note that Expedition Map was excellent and between that and Land Tax I don't really know that there's a major need for an abundance of caution there.

I have been pretty comfy at 36 but I play a ton of utility lands. I think cutting way back on 4s and 5s would enable 34, but I don't think this deck ever wants to be below 34 because of how many great utility lands we want. And I'd like to see some cantrips/fixing things at that point.

The nice thing really about this deck is once you start looting with Varina you're never missing land drops, so long as you can get comfortable there.

Secondly, %$#%$#% I need more early game play. I want to expand the 1 and 2 drop area. I know pokken has talked wayfarer recently and that could be a good avenue to go down. There's definitely some recent release zombies I want to get in but my LGS is still having a really weird time with inventory. We've been locked down so that could be it but his online storefront is just showing out of stock everywhere, even with recent sets. I may just have to send him a laundry list to see if he has things and hasn't bothered updating his stock or whatever.

The game just has gotten so damn fast lately with all the latest upgrades. Even unoptimized dragons decks are killing on turn 6 or 7. Continuous downward pressure on curves.

[Kvothe]

I'm on 34 plus 4 broken mana rocks, plus 2 Altar.

[Falkenbach]

Well I finally got some gameplay in myself today. I lost both games and learned some things.

Thirdly signets are dead weight. They're not what I want to be playing at any stage of the game, and for that reason I'm out. I also had some pretty bad flood going on in these games, so with that I do wonder if lowering the curve allows me to shave the land count back a touch too. I'll note that Expedition Map was excellent and between that and Land Tax I don't really know that there's a major need for an abundance of caution there.

Did you go findNykthos, Shrine to Nyx or any other land with Expedition Map ?

[plaganegra]

And I just ordered a billion $0.10 zombies and some other random jank so I can make the ultra aggro list if I want =p

Dreadmalkin and Skirk Ridge Exhumer lookin to do some work!

I knew you would like these two lol.

I think dreadmalkin is better than its price point. It has mild-evasion and doubles as a costly sac outlet. Very playable.

Skirk ridge was the first one I thought of reading about your skullclamp shenanigans lol

[toctheyounger]

Well I finally got some gameplay in myself today. I lost both games and learned some things.

Thirdly signets are dead weight. They're not what I want to be playing at any stage of the game, and for that reason I'm out. I also had some pretty bad flood going on in these games, so with that I do wonder if lowering the curve allows me to shave the land count back a touch too. I'll note that Expedition Map was excellent and between that and Land Tax I don't really know that there's a major need for an abundance of caution there.

Did you go findNykthos, Shrine to Nyx or any other land with Expedition Map ?

I did but just ended up with an entirely clear board after some wipes. When its good its good, when it's bad its very vanilla. This is the case for Coffers I'd say.

[plaganegra]

TCG Player Financial Set Review:

"Necroduality is quite powerful under the right circumstances. Reflections of Littjara is a solid Commander card as it is, and Necroduality is both cheaper and more flexible in dedicated Zombies decks. I can't imagine too many Zombies decks in Commander aren't running this card, and it will have demand from all of those players regardless.

As for Standard, that's a bit more of a stretch. Panharmonicon saw a tiny bit of play back in its day, and Necroduality is certainly a lot narrower. There aren't a ton of Zombies near the top tables in the format at the moment, and it's not like Necroduality has the versatility to show up anywhere else. My guess is that this ends up being a fairly cheap mythic that sees a price surge next time WotC visits Innistrad and all the Zombies cards spike in response. I'll be waiting a while to pick up my copies."

Don't be too fast to open your wallets. I am targeting a foil copy under $10 personally

[pokken]

Hmm, I think they might be underselling that card. But what the hell do I know I was holding out for $5 great henges and we see where that ended up.

"doubling" and "popular tribe" seem like effects likely to keep it espensive for a while. I'd probably snap at $10 nonfoil.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah this is one that I don't think is going to be driven by standard play. Theres a ton of zombie players in commander and we've already seen the impact that's had on tribal staples. It could well skyrocket.

All that said I'm probably not going to chance it myself. If it ends up over 50 its out of my reach, so I've got myself an upper limit of 30 and as of right now my LGS has it listed preemptively for .20 under that.

[plaganegra]

It has already gone from $40 presale to $18 in just a couple weeks. Who knows…

[Falkenbach]

Well I finally got some gameplay in myself today. I lost both games and learned some things.

Thirdly signets are dead weight. They're not what I want to be playing at any stage of the game, and for that reason I'm out. I also had some pretty bad flood going on in these games, so with that I do wonder if lowering the curve allows me to shave the land count back a touch too. I'll note that Expedition Map was excellent and between that and Land Tax I don't really know that there's a major need for an abundance of caution there.

Did you go findNykthos, Shrine to Nyx or any other land with Expedition Map ?

I did but just ended up with an entirely clear board after some wipes. When its good its good, when it's bad its very vanilla. This is the case for Coffers I'd say.

I run both and also added Expedition Map and a Crucible of Worlds to my list in replacement of a signet and Sword of the Animist (eventho i won cause of sword my last game... if my opponents had destroyed the creature or the sword it would have set me back alot)
Would Crypt of Agadeem been a better land to find for you? Thinking of adding crypt to my list instead of bojuka bog.
Also trying to find a spot for Stitcher's Supplier. A few months ago i was against it because not being able to be in contol of what you mill. But now with cards like Crucible of Worlds , Sevinne's Reclamation, all the creature reanimation and Repository Skaab at our desposel. I can get almost everything back from the yard. Even added the enchantment grotto land to my list.

[toctheyounger]

Did you go findNykthos, Shrine to Nyx or any other land with Expedition Map ?

I did but just ended up with an entirely clear board after some wipes. When its good its good, when it's bad its very vanilla. This is the case for Coffers I'd say.

I run both and also added Expedition Map and a Crucible of Worlds to my list in replacement of a signet and Sword of the Animist (eventho i won cause of sword my last game... if my opponents had destroyed the creature or the sword it would have set me back alot)
Would Crypt of Agadeem been a better land to find for you? Thinking of adding crypt to my list instead of bojuka bog.
Also trying to find a spot for Stitcher's Supplier. A few months ago i was against it because not being able to be in contol of what you mill. But now with cards like Crucible of Worlds , Sevinne's Reclamation, all the creature reanimation and Repository Skaab at our desposel. I can get almost everything back from the yard. Even added the enchantment grotto land to my list.

I've been less on Bog too. It always feels bad in your opening hand and I don't like having to hold back just get a gotcha moment. Crypt seems reasonable, and in this instance might well have got me back on my feet. Either it or Coffers would've.

I'm still not seeing Crucible here myself. Am I missing something critical about it that makes it a lock? I have a copy that could get in here but it seems really narrow in my opinion.

[Falkenbach]

I did but just ended up with an entirely clear board after some wipes. When its good its good, when it's bad its very vanilla. This is the case for Coffers I'd say.

I run both and also added Expedition Map and a Crucible of Worlds to my list in replacement of a signet and Sword of the Animist (eventho i won cause of sword my last game... if my opponents had destroyed the creature or the sword it would have set me back alot)
Would Crypt of Agadeem been a better land to find for you? Thinking of adding crypt to my list instead of bojuka bog.
Also trying to find a spot for Stitcher's Supplier. A few months ago i was against it because not being able to be in contol of what you mill. But now with cards like Crucible of Worlds , Sevinne's Reclamation, all the creature reanimation and Repository Skaab at our desposel. I can get almost everything back from the yard. Even added the enchantment grotto land to my list.

I've been less on Bog too. It always feels bad in your opening hand and I don't like having to hold back just get a gotcha moment. Crypt seems reasonable, and in this instance might well have got me back on my feet. Either it or Coffers would've.

I'm still not seeing Crucible here myself. Am I missing something critical about it that makes it a lock? I have a copy that could get in here but it seems really narrow in my opinion.

Its great if you run alot more fetches than the on colour ones, perhaps a Prismatic Vista or a Fabled Passage. This way you are able to get land drops for sure each turn. Other than that I see it as card advantage as you now can play lands from the graveyard instead of your hand. Which keeps more cards in your hand to loot even better with Varina. It also synergizes well with Sevinne's Reclamation and makes it easier to include Cabal Coffers in my list.
But to be honest its only a theory for me as i have not gotten any games in with the changes. I think Pokken will be more able to tell about how it works out.

[pokken]

I'm still not seeing Crucible here myself. Am I missing something critical about it that makes it a lock? I have a copy that could get in here but it seems really narrow in my opinion.

So, caveats galore, but, I wanted another card that I could find that would recur a dead Unholy Grotto or similar, at first, so that's where I started. It adds some flexibility to Intuition packages when reclamation is gone (where you can do like...Unholy Grotto, Crucible of Worlds and a game winning creature, for example).

The other thing it does is and probably the most important is that if you have a fetch (and I usually do, I run like 10), playing it turn 3 ensures you hit your land drops for Varina. So zombie zombie crucible varina, then I have extra cards in my hand to chuck with varina as well.

As @Falkenbach says, it also makes reliably hitting multi-typed swamps (or just swamps) for coffers, and also protects coffers/urborg from removal. (somewhat off-topic anecdote, I've played a LOT of crucible, and more than once I have had someone's land removal win me the game because I just replayed the land and tapped it again).

And then it has an endgame purpose in looping fetches and Field of the Dead.

Primarily good if you 1) run lots of fetches, 2) run Field of the Dead, and 3) are trying to run Cabal Coffers, with a side piece of intuition synergy.

--

In actual games thus far I've had it two or three times and once it let me hit my land drops and eventually got blown up after I "drew" 5 cards off of it. In another game it let me close the game with Field of the Dead making 2 zombies a turn.

I've also seen it once and chucked it to Varina because I had plenty going on. So that happens 3 mana is on the border.

[ChocoDude]

A friend of mine found these online. Perhaps something to add to your respective Christmas lists?

https://gabbystore.us/products/game-mtg ... ul-blanket
https://gabbystore.us/products/game-mtg ... er-blanket
https://gabbystore.us/products/fleece-b ... bie-master

I searched but couldn't find Varina. However, there were several other zombies and many variants of zombie tokens. Of course, there's a crapload of other MTG cards. Black Lotus, Swords to Plowshares, lands, etc. I'm pretty amused by it, but even more amusing were a smattering of ugly MTG sweaters/jumpers.

For instance, https://gabbystore.us/products/ygo-red- ... sweatshirt

[Reya]

Thank you everybody for the brainstorming we made on this last couple of days. I'm know pretty satisified with my list!

Some reflexion about some specific cards, after a few games:

Teferi's Ageless Insight: now I'm pretty convinced that it's a winmore card. The 4 mana you spend for the card will often be overkill. Probably better to cast something more relevant in order to find a combo piece or a specific card.

Epiphany at the Drownyard: each time I drew this card it was disappointing. It cost too much mana and I rarely want to keep all my mana open in order to cast EoT in the hope of finding what I need. If we want a powerful mana sink, Empty the Laboratory will probably do a better job. Or we can swap this for Mystical Tutor or Intuition.

Weathered Wayfarer: nothing to say. Fantastic card. Did its work everytime I played it. Since I now run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Crypt of Agadeem, it's even better.

Lazotep Chancellor: played it in two games and it did great synergies with many cards while providing a cheap and free additionnal body. I like it.

Binding Mummy: still convinced this card provides so much utility. Taping mana rocks and creatures at instant speed with Lazotep Chancellor or Varina ability is so great.

Apprentice Necromancer: I played Varina since 2 years. I NEVER used its ability... but I'm sure the day I reanimate Mikaleus for a single little black mana, it will be amazing :D

Tidehollow Sculler: can't imagine not playing it. Best part is when you can cast it just before a key spell, forcing your opponent to immediately react or you can ensure to resolve your winning spell.

[pokken]

Epiphany at the Drownyard: each time I drew this card it was disappointing. It cost too much mana and I rarely want to keep all my mana open in order to cast EoT in the hope of finding what I need. If we want a powerful mana sink, Empty the Laboratory will probably do a better job. Or we can swap this for Mystical Tutor or Intuition.

So I play epiphany *and* mystical and intuition, and it seems like it ought to be pretty good mostly at getting you out of situations where you're in a bad way. It's possible I should be playing Fact or Fiction first, but my thought with it is that if I draw it off the top when I have no cards after an exile sweeper it should be great. And yet it's passable at hitting land drops early in the game too.

I do think the deck wants a non-board-dependent couple draw effects but I'm not 100% sure what they should be. I've thought about Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Rhystic Study, Fact or Fiction and Painful Truths.

I'm just kind of a hater on Rhystic Study effects for my own personal use, but it also has some problems being kind of poor as a late game draw since you can't just get cards right now.

[toctheyounger]

I'm still not seeing Crucible here myself. Am I missing something critical about it that makes it a lock? I have a copy that could get in here but it seems really narrow in my opinion.

So, caveats galore, but, I wanted another card that I could find that would recur a dead Unholy Grotto or similar, at first, so that's where I started. It adds some flexibility to Intuition packages when reclamation is gone (where you can do like...Unholy Grotto, Crucible of Worlds and a game winning creature, for example).

The other thing it does is and probably the most important is that if you have a fetch (and I usually do, I run like 10), playing it turn 3 ensures you hit your land drops for Varina. So zombie zombie crucible varina, then I have extra cards in my hand to chuck with varina as well.

As @Falkenbach says, it also makes reliably hitting multi-typed swamps (or just swamps) for coffers, and also protects coffers/urborg from removal. (somewhat off-topic anecdote, I've played a LOT of crucible, and more than once I have had someone's land removal win me the game because I just replayed the land and tapped it again).

And then it has an endgame purpose in looping fetches and Field of the Dead.

Primarily good if you 1) run lots of fetches, 2) run Field of the Dead, and 3) are trying to run Cabal Coffers, with a side piece of intuition synergy.

--

In actual games thus far I've had it two or three times and once it let me hit my land drops and eventually got blown up after I "drew" 5 cards off of it. In another game it let me close the game with Field of the Dead making 2 zombies a turn.

I've also seen it once and chucked it to Varina because I had plenty going on. So that happens 3 mana is on the border.

That all makes sense. Seems very much to be a card that relies on a dearth of fetch based lands, so probably not for me right now. Moving forward I do want to fill out the on color fetches, Fabled Passage and Vista as expenses allow, but thats still a lot of money. Passage at least has dropped some which is nice. At that point I guess crucible might he worth adding, and probably the same for Field of the Dead. I can attest to how good the card is but until I'm able to reliably get consistent land drops and fetches its really not worth the slot.

As an aside, my LGS price for Necro seems to have settled on preorder of just about 30. What do you guys think, leave it to settle or grab it while I can? Standard is a fickle beast so it could skyrocket i guess.

[Falkenbach]

I had a great prerelease and picked up Overcharged Amalgam Repository Skaab and Necroduality now only the headless rider is on my to get list..
Paid 10€ for the duality btw

[pokken]

As an aside, my LGS price for Necro seems to have settled on preorder of just about 30. What do you guys think, leave it to settle or grab it while I can? Standard is a fickle beast so it could skyrocket i guess.

I don't see how it could sustain much more than that. it's down around 20 in the states already on preorders.

I'm holding out for $10-15. And I'm not 100% sure I should play it tbh. I like the attack trigger on Kindred Discovery which makes it a lot more reliable CA the more I think on it. And I don't see a lot of room for enablers that don't make zombies from an empty hand/board -- maybe 1 or 2 slots at most.

[Reya]

Epiphany at the Drownyard: each time I drew this card it was disappointing. It cost too much mana and I rarely want to keep all my mana open in order to cast EoT in the hope of finding what I need. If we want a powerful mana sink, Empty the Laboratory will probably do a better job. Or we can swap this for Mystical Tutor or Intuition.

So I play epiphany *and* mystical and intuition, and it seems like it ought to be pretty good mostly at getting you out of situations where you're in a bad way. It's possible I should be playing Fact or Fiction first, but my thought with it is that if I draw it off the top when I have no cards after an exile sweeper it should be great. And yet it's passable at hitting land drops early in the game too.

I do think the deck wants a non-board-dependent couple draw effects but I'm not 100% sure what they should be. I've thought about Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Rhystic Study, Fact or Fiction and Painful Truths.

I'm just kind of a hater on Rhystic Study effects for my own personal use, but it also has some problems being kind of poor as a late game draw since you can't just get cards right now.

Yeah I made a second judgment about Epiphany. Since we play Nykthos and Crypt, we can come back from nowhere with at 8-10 mana Epiphany... but for Teferi insight, can we just run Fact or Fiction instead ? It's a great card to dig and fill the graveyard in the same time.

[plaganegra]

As an aside, my LGS price for Necro seems to have settled on preorder of just about 30. What do you guys think, leave it to settle or grab it while I can? Standard is a fickle beast so it could skyrocket i guess.

I don't see how it could sustain much more than that. it's down around 20 in the states already on preorders.

I'm holding out for $10-15. And I'm not 100% sure I should play it tbh. I like the attack trigger on Kindred Discovery which makes it a lot more reliable CA the more I think on it. And I don't see a lot of room for enablers that don't make zombies from an empty hand/board -- maybe 1 or 2 slots at most.

I can't say I disagree with you here, but I just really want to experience the effect coming off of a zombie apocalypse so I can check that off of my bucket list lol. For me its a lot better than average because of how aggressively I use cards like silversmote ghoul, gravecrawler, prized amalgam with GY tutors and sac outlets.

In a more aristocrats style build it still can do a lot of work too. It is in a slightly better but similar spot as teferi's ageless insight in that context imo

[plaganegra]

@toctheyounger fetches are probably better to buy in that price range. necroduality could go up or down but I bet this set will have a lot printed so long term down is practically a garauntee. Opposite for fetches imo. Even when they reprint the price retraces

I find having a very reliable manabase and curve to be the largest impact on my overall enjoyment of playing edh even casually. Gettibg mana screwed sucks so much. The money invested there is the most valuable over new shiny cards haha. Plus I just focus on having one of each card I want and then proxy that card in all my decks. Most people in my area do the same thing. So one fetch goes a very long way

[toctheyounger]

Epiphany at the Drownyard: each time I drew this card it was disappointing. It cost too much mana and I rarely want to keep all my mana open in order to cast EoT in the hope of finding what I need. If we want a powerful mana sink, Empty the Laboratory will probably do a better job. Or we can swap this for Mystical Tutor or Intuition.

So I play epiphany *and* mystical and intuition, and it seems like it ought to be pretty good mostly at getting you out of situations where you're in a bad way. It's possible I should be playing Fact or Fiction first, but my thought with it is that if I draw it off the top when I have no cards after an exile sweeper it should be great. And yet it's passable at hitting land drops early in the game too.

I do think the deck wants a non-board-dependent couple draw effects but I'm not 100% sure what they should be. I've thought about Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Rhystic Study, Fact or Fiction and Painful Truths.

I'm just kind of a hater on Rhystic Study effects for my own personal use, but it also has some problems being kind of poor as a late game draw since you can't just get cards right now.

Yeah I made a second judgment about Epiphany. Since we play Nykthos and Crypt, we can come back from nowhere with at 8-10 mana Epiphany... but for Teferi insight, can we just run Fact or Fiction instead ? It's a great card to dig and fill the graveyard in the same time.

Fact has been solid for me. Its one of my favorite cards that exists, and it does exactly what you'd want it to here. Given we're constantly manipulating our hand and yard its very rare for us to have unfavorable piles from Fact.