Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[pokken]

Not a single 1 or 2 drop zombie I have the vaguest interest in is pretty sad times

[BeneTleilax]

Is the full set out already?

[pokken]

Is the full set out already?

Im not sure but it looks like probably all the rare and mythic zombies are. Hopefully wrong

[Falkenbach]

Is the full set out already?

Im not sure but it looks like probably all the rare and mythic zombies are. Hopefully wrong

There is only 1 blue mythic possible that theres some more coming in blue?

[BeneTleilax]

I'm hoping there's some decent functional zombies at common/uncommon

[toctheyounger]

I guess it's a weird time to update, but I get round to it when I get round to it, I guess.

Having said that the deck is really tight now, this is a big update, but it feels like all is moving in the right direction...I think.

• Hall of Heliod's Generosity
• Dimir Signet
• Talisman of Dominance
• Expedition Map
• Imprisoned in the Moon
• Empty the Laboratory
• Snapcaster Mage
• Tidehollow Sculler
• Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver
• Ravenous Rotbelly

• Vault of the Archangel
• Swamp
• Sword of the Animist
• Alhammarret's Archive
• Mission Briefing
• Akroma's Will
• Master of Death
• Lord of the Accursed
• Vile Entomber
• Noosegraf Mob

So, I guess there's a bit to unpack. Firstly for cuts, Archive has traditionally been great, but with Kindred Discovery and Ageless Insight it isn't really needed, and it's the most costly for what it does. Sword of the Animist has been fine but it is slow, and it made sense to me that early plays are really critical here. I don't need lands in play per se, I just need either creatures in play or mana usable early, so it made sense to get 2-drop rocks in to push that a little. The land cut puts me on the edge a little for land count, but it's a risk I think will mostly pay off. Vault of the Archangel was an easy swap for Hall of Heliod's Generosity too.

Akroma's Will is a really good card and I've seen it do good things elsewhere, but it just isn't as important to the deck as other things are, so it seemed reasonable to cut. Mission Briefing...well, it got a huge upgrade. Someone was kind enough to share their trade binder Snapcaster Mage with me, which frankly is really incredibly humbling. I'd never afford a copy otherwise. The generosity of this community continues to amaze me.

The creature cuts I'm mostly ok with. Accursed and Master seemed the weakest in the 3 slot, Entomber I tried a couple times and just couldn't see any cool lines with it that weren't ending with me thinking 'if i untap with this.....' and that just never feels great. Noosegraf I still really like, but at the top of the curve he pales in comparison to Mike, and some of the additions here and potentially upcoming will just take care of tokens fine.

Adds wise, some of that I've covered above. Expedition Map, honestly I just added it to shut @pokken up lol. I kid, it's there to grab Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or fixing or utility. It should be good, and it's one more thing Sevinne's Reclamation can grab too.

Imprisoned in the Moon I added for the option for stuff that you don't wanna remove or are just harder to remove. Golos, Tireless Pilgrim would've been the perfect example of that, but...you know. There's others. And again, a reclamation target, so that's nice. Empty the Laboratory I'm pretty keen to try out, I like the random nature of it and the capability to turn tokens and fodder into meaningful board presence. It could be unreliable, but I think it'll be fun and I'm keen to try it out either way.

Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver we all seem to be on the same page with. He's strong, and should be excellent. Ravenous Rotbelly has the makings of a potential repeated limited board wipe, I'm on the fence but it might be cool. Tidehollow Sculler is low the ground and nasty with a sac outlet.

I think that covers everything coming and going, and it feels like it's all heading in the right direction. As always I'm keen to hear thoughts on these. There's going to be more coming in with Crimson Vow, although to be honest thus far there's very little that's a definite lock. Necroduality for sure, and I'm crossing my fingers the price stays reasonable. I don't think it'll quite do what Meathook did, but it'll still be up there a bit I think. Otherwise not a ton and I'm ok with that.

I do think from here I need to perhaps look at how much removal the deck has. There's a lot of dedicated wipes in the deck and I'm not sure all of it is required; a couple of the inclusions cover multiple duties, notably Noxious Ghoul and Living Death (and Ravenous Rotbelly if it sticks), so there might be a bit more wiggle room in that area to shave some chaff from the list. That's probably where I'll look to make space in the near future. I definitely still want to track down a Tragic Arrogance to try out in the list anyway, and Vanquish the Horde too; my LGS is a bit weird with inventory at the minute, I'm assuming its lockdown related.

[Reya]

The more I think about Wilhelt, the more I think he's not as strong as we think. He costs 4, he generates decayed token and his draw ability ask you to sacrifice something and you have to wait the end of the turn. All of this just for a little draw that you won't be able to use with good timing, most of the time.

So I'm tempted to play Overcharged Amalgam instead of Wilhelt and for a amazing token generator we have the master piece: Headless Rider !

[Falkenbach]

The more I think about Wilhelt, the more I think he's not as strong as we think. He costs 4, he generates decayed token and his draw ability ask you to sacrifice something and you have to wait the end of the turn. All of this just for a little draw that you won't be able to use with good timing, most of the time.

So I'm tempted to play Overcharged Amalgam instead of Wilhelt and for a amazing token generator we have the master piece: Headless Rider !

Oh i just think hes one of the most amazing zombies we have had in months. He also turns your zombie tokens in decayers which with a sac engine can drain your opponents twice with a vengeful dead effect. I am swapping out Graveborn Muse for the amalgam. As the muse i find quite dangerous when you start to develop a board.

@toctheyounger what do you mean with theTidehollow Sculler and a sac outlet? Wouldnt that give the card back? Sad to see sword of the animist go in your build (but i do get it its slow) I just had a game last weekend where i attached it to Relentless Dead and it got me miles ahead😋 it usually flies under the radar of removal.

[Reya]

Oh i just think hes one of the most amazing zombies we have had in months. He also turns your zombie tokens in decayers which with a sac engine can drain your opponents twice with a vengeful dead effect. I am swapping out Graveborn Muse for the amalgam. As the muse i find quite dangerous when you start to develop a board.

@toctheyounger what do you mean with theTidehollow Sculler and a sac outlet? Wouldnt that give the card back? Sad to see sword of the animist go in your build (but i do get it its slow) I just had a game last weekend where i attached it to Relentless Dead and it got me miles ahead😋 it usually flies under the radar of removal.

I understand you think Muse is dangerous but the effect is so strong that she often ends being destroyed quite fast! A proof of her drawing power... and you can easely mitigate the loss of life thanks to Varina. But in the same time I can see her go out for Wilhelt. We have a lot of testing to do with those lasts two sets.

For the "trick" with Tidehollow Sculler: while the ETB trigger is on the stack, you sacrifice it and the death trigger goes on the stack. Death trigger resolves (nothing to bring back in your opponent's hand), then you resolve the ETB trigger and the card will be exiled for ever

[pokken]

I find myself more and more suspicious of on-curve 4-drops in this deck at all and Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver and Graveborn Muse both fall into that "good when you're ahead and not all that good with mass reanimation" effects that I don't find all that enticing personally. Both are very slow as well.

I think I'd run either Headless Rider or Archghoul of Thraben or Master of Death over either if they're not being run.

Now, if your deck is designed to rush to 4 mana on 3 and cast a 4-drop before casting Varina, things are different I guess, but given the deck is already absolutely littered with good 3-drops the natural sequencing is still awkward with 4-cmc cards. I only run 3 x 4 cmc on curve dudes myself (and Archaeomancer is really not a card I intend to cast so much as discard and reanimate).

[Falkenbach]

Oh i just think hes one of the most amazing zombies we have had in months. He also turns your zombie tokens in decayers which with a sac engine can drain your opponents twice with a vengeful dead effect. I am swapping out Graveborn Muse for the amalgam. As the muse i find quite dangerous when you start to develop a board.

@toctheyounger what do you mean with theTidehollow Sculler and a sac outlet? Wouldnt that give the card back? Sad to see sword of the animist go in your build (but i do get it its slow) I just had a game last weekend where i attached it to Relentless Dead and it got me miles ahead😋 it usually flies under the radar of removal.

I understand you think Muse is dangerous but the effect is so strong that she often ends being destroyed quite fast! A proof of her drawing power... and you can easely mitigate the loss of life thanks to Varina. But in the same time I can see her go out for Wilhelt. We have a lot of testing to do with those lasts two sets.

For the "trick" with Tidehollow Sculler: while the ETB trigger is on the stack, you sacrifice it and the death trigger goes on the stack. Death trigger resolves (nothing to bring back in your opponent's hand), then you resolve the ETB trigger and the card will be exiled for ever

Didnt know about that.. it for sure makes it interesting card.

Yeah i know the muse is strong.. maybe i am finding reasons for myself to cut her from my list just to find room for new things

[yeti1069]

Muse is super strong. It's pretty rare for it to become problematic, and I'd rather run more sac outlets to support it than drop it. It does so much work in the games where it sticks for a turn or two. I guess if you're going very low to the ground like Pokken is, a 4 drop that has to stick around a turn to do anything might not be the best choice, but I've found that even with an empty board, a 4-mana Phyrexian Arena with tons of potential growth (on a relevant body) has been useful.

Wilhelt I've seen do some amazing things, but have only drawn it once so far, and the game was already basically over. He's a bit different, since you don't have to wait a whole turn cycle to draw, can have an immediate impact with the token production, and doesn't come with a downside. Headless Rider is mostly better for token production, but they also work better together.

For my part, I'm a little on the fence in terms of direction. Part of me wants to skew the deck toward more tokens with all the goodies that have come out, but those don't necessarily dovetail with the mass reanimation strategy. I'm struggling to find things to cut to make room for all the new hotness.

[Reya]

Same feeling. There is now too much things we want to integrate! Wilhelt, Headless Rider, Overcharged Amalgam. A lot of competition for the slots!

[ChocoDude]

The only two cards that I'm super excited for are Headless Rider and Necroduality. I may try out Overcharged Amalgam, Fell Stinger, and Archghoul of Thraben, but they don't excite me as much.

[toctheyounger]

Regarding Muse and Wilhelt, they each have pros and cons on paper.

Muse is an 'if I untap with this' card and those are always a risk. I can't remember the last time I reanimated a creature with Sheoldred, Whispering One for example. Doing nothing right away is a tough proposition. That being said if you do untap with her the draw is incredibly strong.

Wilhelt to some degree is sight unseen for me right now. I know what he does on paper and it looks like it could be good to have. Assuring a board presence, at least in offense, means I always have options to trigger Varina. That being said it does feel like it might be step towards a different archetype; with all of the exploit, fleshbag and Wilhelt there's probably enough floating about these days to put together an attrition value build and perhaps Wilhelt would fit better in that. His tokens really are sac fodder for the most part, at least, that is the most proactive way to use him at any rate. The end of turn draw I'm really not banking on using all that often.

So with all that said I think it more likely that Muse is the better fit in my iteration. Either could go for the right inclusion, which might well be one of the new releases, or might not. Necroduality is a must for me, Overcharged Amalgam looks fine but 4 is a lot to hold up and there are very few ways to reanimate it instant speed, and otherwise all I'm really looking at is Headless Rider as a lock and Fell Stinger as a maybe that I'll probably want a couple copies of anyway.

[plaganegra]

Regarding Muse and Wilhelt, they each have pros and cons on paper.

Muse is an 'if I untap with this' card and those are always a risk. I can't remember the last time I reanimated a creature with Sheoldred, Whispering One for example. Doing nothing right away is a tough proposition. That being said if you do untap with her the draw is incredibly strong.

Wilhelt to some degree is sight unseen for me right now. I know what he does on paper and it looks like it could be good to have. Assuring a board presence, at least in offense, means I always have options to trigger Varina. That being said it does feel like it might be step towards a different archetype; with all of the exploit, fleshbag and Wilhelt there's probably enough floating about these days to put together an attrition value build and perhaps Wilhelt would fit better in that. His tokens really are sac fodder for the most part, at least, that is the most proactive way to use him at any rate. The end of turn draw I'm really not banking on using all that often.

So with all that said I think it more likely that Muse is the better fit in my iteration. Either could go for the right inclusion, which might well be one of the new releases, or might not. Necroduality is a must for me, Overcharged Amalgam looks fine but 4 is a lot to hold up and there are very few ways to reanimate it instant speed, and otherwise all I'm really looking at is Headless Rider as a lock and Fell Stinger as a maybe that I'll probably want a couple copies of anyway.

I agree with all of this.

The upside on Graveborn Muse is basically Necropotence and the downside is it eats a removal spell. I have never ever ever lost because of the life lost. If you are losing life to draw *that many cards* and not winning you deserve to lose or are just incredible unlucky. Worth it every time imo.

Wilhelt and the Amalgam seem like good 4-drops that can fit in flex slots depending on how you like to play. Both entirely viable, and maybe optimal in the right builds.

Headless Rider is the only lock for me as well, alongside necroduality if I can find a darn slot to put it into lol. Necroduality needs to be tested in game before I know what to say about it, but I love the card. The Rider has too high of an upside to pass on for me.

I agree with @pokken that the 4cmc slot deserves the most scrutiny for things that want to be played on curve. Even if you can get to 4 mana quickly with ramp/rocks, you still probably want to play Varina right away. So any 4cmc dude is competing with that, and needs to do something the deck really needs: i.e. drawing lots of cards.

These are the 4-drops I am running:

• Balthor, the Defiled (does a thing that the deck needs, re-added this after reading positive things here in the thread, usually an insurance policy never cast on curve).
• Corpse Augur (draws lots of cards, not usually cast on curve)
• Graveborn Muse (draws lots of cards)
• Vengeful Dead (win condition, not usually cast on curve)
• Tormod, the Desecrator (flood the board - I run several self-reanimating zombies as well as a buried alive package to facilitate this, plus varina, not usually cast on curve)
• Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver (flood the board, competes with Varina a bit for casting on curve, very limited sac outlet, draw)
• Wonder (doesnt count, never ever gets cast lol)
• tombstone stairwell (late game card, never cast on curve)

Necroduality also competes with Varina, which is definitely a knock against its inclusion.

the 3-cmc slot is highly flexible and customizable.
the 4cmc slot is the most competitive for optimal efficiency in ideal scenarios.
the 5 cmc slot is jammed with all the flex options that give your deck its flavor and style, or your choice of bombs.

When building Varina, since she is more of a midrange zombie deck, I think it is really helpful to look at the curve above all else when making decisions about what zombies to include. Ensuring the deck can run optimally as often as possible will make the biggest impact on your enjoyment playing the deck, no matter what zombies or other spells you choose to run in your own deck, is really critical. Guidelines.

[toctheyounger]

Regarding Muse and Wilhelt, they each have pros and cons on paper.

Muse is an 'if I untap with this' card and those are always a risk. I can't remember the last time I reanimated a creature with Sheoldred, Whispering One for example. Doing nothing right away is a tough proposition. That being said if you do untap with her the draw is incredibly strong.

Wilhelt to some degree is sight unseen for me right now. I know what he does on paper and it looks like it could be good to have. Assuring a board presence, at least in offense, means I always have options to trigger Varina. That being said it does feel like it might be step towards a different archetype; with all of the exploit, fleshbag and Wilhelt there's probably enough floating about these days to put together an attrition value build and perhaps Wilhelt would fit better in that. His tokens really are sac fodder for the most part, at least, that is the most proactive way to use him at any rate. The end of turn draw I'm really not banking on using all that often.

So with all that said I think it more likely that Muse is the better fit in my iteration. Either could go for the right inclusion, which might well be one of the new releases, or might not. Necroduality is a must for me, Overcharged Amalgam looks fine but 4 is a lot to hold up and there are very few ways to reanimate it instant speed, and otherwise all I'm really looking at is Headless Rider as a lock and Fell Stinger as a maybe that I'll probably want a couple copies of anyway.

I agree with all of this.

The upside on Graveborn Muse is basically Necropotence and the downside is it eats a removal spell. I have never ever ever lost because of the life lost. If you are losing life to draw *that many cards* and not winning you deserve to lose or are just incredible unlucky. Worth it every time imo.

Wilhelt and the Amalgam seem like good 4-drops that can fit in flex slots depending on how you like to play. Both entirely viable, and maybe optimal in the right builds.

Headless Rider is the only lock for me as well, alongside necroduality if I can find a darn slot to put it into lol. Necroduality needs to be tested in game before I know what to say about it, but I love the card. The Rider has too high of an upside to pass on for me.

I agree with @pokken that the 4cmc slot deserves the most scrutiny for things that want to be played on curve. Even if you can get to 4 mana quickly with ramp/rocks, you still probably want to play Varina right away. So any 4cmc dude is competing with that, and needs to do something the deck really needs: i.e. drawing lots of cards.

These are the 4-drops I am running:

• Balthor, the Defiled (does a thing that the deck needs, re-added this after reading positive things here in the thread, usually an insurance policy never cast on curve).
• Corpse Augur (draws lots of cards, not usually cast on curve)
• Graveborn Muse (draws lots of cards)
• Vengeful Dead (win condition, not usually cast on curve)
• Tormod, the Desecrator (flood the board - I run several self-reanimating zombies as well as a buried alive package to facilitate this, plus varina, not usually cast on curve)
• Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver (flood the board, competes with Varina a bit for casting on curve, very limited sac outlet, draw)
• Wonder (doesnt count, never ever gets cast lol)
• tombstone stairwell (late game card, never cast on curve)

Necroduality also competes with Varina, which is definitely a knock against its inclusion.

the 3-cmc slot is highly flexible and customizable.
the 4cmc slot is the most competitive for optimal efficiency in ideal scenarios.
the 5 cmc slot is jammed with all the flex options that give your deck its flavor and style, or your choice of bombs.

When building Varina, since she is more of a midrange zombie deck, I think it is really helpful to look at the curve above all else when making decisions about what zombies to include. Ensuring the deck can run optimally as often as possible will make the biggest impact on your enjoyment playing the deck, no matter what zombies or other spells you choose to run in your own deck, is really critical. Guidelines.

This is all pretty much on the money. Theres variety in what Varina can do so, yknow, different strokes. I'm definitely gonna try out the new tech and just see where I end up. I will say this set has been really good for just giving us variety in what a Varina shell is capable of. She can now do attrition or mill or swarm with a bit more ease. It means there's no definite locks for every deck, but I like that anyway.

As an aside, any life loss card can get you. I've been done by Phyrexian Arena before, which I can say was both hilarious and embarrassing.

[BeneTleilax]

Hey, we got our zombie archeomancer: Repository Skaab

[RedCheese]

Hey, we got our zombie archeomancer: Repository Skaab

Yay, finally.

[yeti1069]

Hey, we got our zombie archeomancer: Repository Skaab

Woah! That's awesome!

A shame Toc JUST got the Snappy.

[RedCheese]

Selhoff Entomber

Is a zombie Looter so thats neat i guess. Wished it was more flexible tough

[pokken]

Fairly sure I play both of those. So nice that the archaeozomb is 3U

Looter is sketchy tho having to discard a creature. And not dying to skullclamp

[BeneTleilax]

It doesn't even need a sac outlet to loop reanimation. Really, everything I could want.

[demonicpic]

Hey, we got our zombie archeomancer: Repository Skaab

Woah! That's awesome!

A shame Toc JUST got the Snappy.

Lol, that's the way the world works sometimes. I wouldn't hold it against him if he decided to go with the Zombie for purely flavor reasons

[plaganegra]

Hey, we got our zombie archeomancer: Repository Skaab

Add this to the cards I will definitely be running from this set! Even in the highly competitive 4cmc slot lol.

Rejoice!

I believe you can just keep looping this to get your mass reanimate spell back every time you cast it lol. Wewt