Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[plaganegra]

Idk I think you might be just undervaluing its ability to get decent zombies into the yard and smooth the curve on draws. Or maybe I'm expecting it to trigger more than it will in practice, who knows.

I'd be interested in some examples of sequencing where this thing is strong. It feels to me like if you have enough zombies you can spare them to sac to stuff you're probably fine? Or is the idea that you're going to swing them into blockers to trigger Varina then get stuff on death?

My general take is that 3 cmc zombies need to do a crapload; incremental card draw is not what the 3 cmc slot is about. It's where lords and drainers live.

I could see scenarios where it's stronger than Midnight Reaper or Master of Death (your worst two 3-drops) but I think both of those are usually better. First one allows you to draw lands and second one surveils 2 right now with no cost.

I am not ready to write off Archghoul of Thraben just yet, but I am also not sold on it's inclusion. The ability has a lot of potential, but I am with you on "show me the scenarios" where it truly shines outside of incidental draw. I do see it as a piece in a deck focused on combo, however.

Master of Death is a little better than the surface surveil 2 ability. imo - you really don't want to be casting this guy at all unless you really have nothing to do with your board. In your hand, the zombie-squee ability basically says "draw 1" of the cards you would have discarded from an active Varina trigger. it is very hard to interact with this free-draw mechanic in the deck. IMO an auto-include in Varina until the end of time...

[pokken]

Master of Death is a little better than the surface surveil 2 ability. imo - you really don't want to be casting this guy at all unless you really have nothing to do with your board. In your hand, the zombie-squee ability basically says "draw 1" of the cards you would have discarded from an active Varina trigger. it is very hard to interact with this free-draw mechanic in the deck. IMO an auto-include in Varina until the end of time...

Yeah, I'm talking here mostly about the floor scenarios - I like Master of Death for lots of reasons not the least of which because it dies to Skullclamp which has been borderline bananas good for me (since it serves as a bad sac outlet to set up mass reanimation and also draws cards).

The surveil 2 is just a lot better at hitting a land drop than Archghoul of Thraben and doesn't cost you any board presence - and better at finding cards you need.

Anyway thanks for reminding me to go put it in my deck lol Not sure why it wasn't there, it's in my pile of stuff.

[yeti1069]

Disappointing to get the effect at that cost on a non-zombie.
The sac effect being nontoken is an odd inclusion, especially given that his sister had a similar ability with no such downside, and was improved by sacrificing a token she'd made.
Definite.pass from me.

Mindleech Ghoul is also a pass. Doesn't do much, and as an early drop will often do nothing since we're trying to build board presence on 2. If it were a straight ETB trigger...still probably not due to being low impact and without other hand disruption to add to it, but it might warrant consideration at that point.

[Reya]

So disappointed of the « zombies you control have fly » card. I kept Wonder for now.

[pokken]

All I want is Bloodsoaked Champion zombie and this set will be a win in my book

[RedCheese]

Necroduality

This is interesting

[pokken]

That could get out offhand pretty fast. Probably better than kindred discovery all things considered. Two Gary better than a random card. And 3U is a nice mana cost. The fact that it functionally combos with our mass reanimation is legit fire for my strategy anyway heh.

[plaganegra]

Necroduality

This is interesting

Upgraded Reflections of Littjara makes me very happy.

@pokken I think this fills a pretty different role than Kindred Discovery does. Although they both probably occupy a similar slot in many peoples' decks. Token copies are not equivalent to card draw.

I believe in most scenarios (except where you just win with mass reanimate) card draw is king. Both are not the best when you are playing from behind, but I would rather have KD. When things are already going well I think I want copies. I think I might want access to both though lol.

Noteworthy - KD sequences much better the turn after you drop Varina than duality. To get value out of duality you must cast something most of the time where as with KD you can etb or attack. And it includes tokens.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah seems like a really solid add. Let's wait and see what prices are like on release. Given the spike in zombie tech of late I bet its a chaser.

[pokken]

@pokken I think this fills a pretty different role than Kindred Discovery does. Although they both probably occupy a similar slot in many peoples' decks. Token copies are not equivalent to card draw.

I believe in most scenarios (except where you just win with mass reanimate) card draw is king. Both are not the best when you are playing from behind, but I would rather have KD. When things are already going well I think I want copies. I think I might want access to both though lol.

I think it depends heavily on the deck but for me, token copies are likely to be equivalent to card draw. The difference between 4 mana and 5 and having two blue pips and not can't be overstated really. KD is definitely more powerful, but it's also more mana value and more demanding to cast, which becomes more of a problem as you play fewer signets.

For me with a focus on finding unholy grotto and a problem zombie like Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Noxious Ghoul and shoving it down people's throats as an endgame play, being able to make two of them is a lot stronger than drawing a random one of my crappy zombies.

[toctheyounger]

So Patchwork Crawler is nice and cheap. I like it for its CMC and the incidental Necrotic Ooze tack on.

[pokken]

So Patchwork Crawler is nice and cheap. I like it for its CMC and the incidental Necrotic Ooze tack on.

It seems pretty reasonable. I have a surprising number of activated ability zombies. not sure enough to want to play this card and pay that prohibitive mana cost though. It does make me really look forward to the set

[Falkenbach]

So Patchwork Crawler is nice and cheap. I like it for its CMC and the incidental Necrotic Ooze tack on.

It seems pretty reasonable. I have a surprising number of activated ability zombies. not sure enough to want to play this card and pay that prohibitive mana cost though. It does make me really look forward to the set

Do you have a list somewhere? i am curious what cards you run?

[pokken]

Do you have a list somewhere? i am curious what cards you run?

It's in the forum - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=40225

My take is fairly derivative, and I basically started from a mix of @toctheyounger and @WizardMN's decklists, Most of the differences are in the ramp strategy outside of a bias toward more aristocrats stuff and fewer anthems.

Generally speaking I think Toc's deck is probably a better place to start tbh

(...apparently my deck is also in my sig lol)

[toctheyounger]

So Patchwork Crawler is nice and cheap. I like it for its CMC and the incidental Necrotic Ooze tack on.

It seems pretty reasonable. I have a surprising number of activated ability zombies. not sure enough to want to play this card and pay that prohibitive mana cost though. It does make me really look forward to the set

Well I read that wrong. I glanced over it and thought it was any graveyard. I'm much less inclined to play this only exiting my stuff.

[yeti1069]

Yeah, I'm not keen on exiling our own creatures from the yard.

Necroduality looks fantastic! It is the exact upgrade to Reflections of Littjara I had mentioned was needed (ETB rather than cast) to be worth running in this deck, and it does it at a mana less. On turn 4 (or 5) it's probably a do nothing enchantment, but it has some real value it can generate here, and extends the reach on a lot of the zombies in the deck from making a big dent in opponents' life totals to killing them. Not to mention all the value to be had from doubling up on lord's or card draw effects.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I'm not keen on exiling our own creatures from the yard.

Necroduality looks fantastic! It is the exact upgrade to Reflections of Littjara I had mentioned was needed (ETB rather than cast) to be worth running in this deck, and it does it at a mana less. On turn 4 (or 5) it's probably a do nothing enchantment, but it has some real value it can generate here, and extends the reach on a lot of the zombies in the deck from making a big dent in opponents' life totals to killing them. Not to mention all the value to be had from doubling up on lord's or card draw effects.

It really makes our reanimation spells absolutely brutal too.

[yeti1069]

Right.

Speaking of...Edgar's Awakening looks pretty good here. Essentially Madness 1 to reanimate a creature.

[RedCheese]

Right.

Speaking of...Edgar's Awakening looks pretty good here. Essentially Madness 1 to reanimate a creature.

The madness part returns creature to the hand

[yeti1069]

Right.

Speaking of...Edgar's Awakening looks pretty good here. Essentially Madness 1 to reanimate a creature.

The madness part returns creature to the hand

Oh. Misread that. Nevermind.

[BeneTleilax]

Does Dreadful Service get in? I'm starting to wonder if that, Zombie Infestation, Skirk Ridge Exhumer alongside the Archfiend and Miser might form the basis of a more discard-centric build.

[toctheyounger]

Does Dreadful Service get in? I'm starting to wonder if that, Zombie Infestation, Skirk Ridge Exhumer alongside the Archfiend and Miser might form the basis of a more discard-centric build.

Definitely feasible. I'm not looking at it myself although I do love the pun. I think Infestation is stronger personally, but it definitely gives options for more of a self mill/discard build.

[RedCheese]

I boooo at Dreadful Service

The amount of restrictions anoyed me too much that i hate the card.

[yeti1069]

Oooh. It's still "trigger Varina: make a zombie". And not a decayed zombie, the real deal. That looks pretty decent.

[yeti1069]

Looks like they were saving all the good/interesting zombies for this set: