Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

I think Wake occupied much the same space as Empty the Laboratory. Both are gambles for instant value to some degree. Wake seems much more predicated on ETB value and while that is fine and with the right set up could be very explosive i feel like my personal build is probably lacking just a touch to really make it work (read - if I can't find Gary or Sidisi, it ain't worth it). I think if I ran Delver and Rot Hulk I'd feel better about it.

The other part of the card that makes me wary of it is the timing stipulation. Partially that's a resource thing which ill grant comes right with altars and efficient mana, but it does take some of the sting out of the tail making it HAVE to be a gotcha.

For what its worth I have the same misgivings about Empty. I think they both suffer from 'results will vary if your curve is low. All that said, building into Wake lines seems a recipe for some savage combo plays and I can't fault anyone for that (I did last suggest Solemnity).

I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone else is interested in trying it out, personally I've got enough other things to trial right now, and its gonna take me a while.

Without being rude, I certainly don't mean to be, saying Razaketh, the Foulblooded is good in a creature deck is like saying water is wet. Hes very obviously very good. I just don't want that degree of consistency in my build. I'd far prefer a synergy piece any day, purely because Raz is such a 'go off on easy mode' card. I think even Sidisi is probably a better fit for being on tribe and just not being quite as 'win on the spot'. Like I don't mind tutoring up a piece. But sacrificing my board build a combo from scratch seems too far to me. Again, its a great card, I just don't want such a warping busted card in my build personally. If it came down to it I'd 100% run Enlightened Tutor anyway and be much happier.

Dread Return and Unburial Rites seem sort of worth it. I think I prefer Dread over Rites for its free flashback, thats very strong. They're probably both costed, on initial cast, a little higher than I'd like though which is part of the reason Animate Dead is here instead.

Show and Tell I'd personally never even considered. I struggle to think we've got anything obscene enough on its own to justify the freebie for anyone else though. If you're lucky enough to have Intuition its a play for sure, but that card is out of my reach right now, and thats unlikely to change given its price. It isn't going to go down anytime soon, if ever. Of those two though Intuition seems much more easily to be the better card in the build imo.

All this said I'm definitely approaching this build from a non-combo perspective for myself. There is one in my build but the pieces are there purely because they're good otherwise. I'm not really interested myself in going off entirely. Again, though, can't fault anyone else for doing so!

[plaganegra]

I think using the graveyard as more of a second hand alongside Varina's ability is going to be worthwhile, and has been under utilized thus far.

Welcome to the dark side! Haha. I cant wait to hear more about what you learn from giving those cards a try and focusing on this aspect of Varina.

[Kvothe]

I think using the graveyard as more of a second hand alongside Varina's ability is going to be worthwhile, and has been under utilized thus far.

Welcome to the dark side! Haha. I cant wait to hear more about what you learn from giving those cards a try and focusing on this aspect of Varina.

I've had Stitcher's Supplier in my list for a while and I've been happy with him.
Makes me wish there were other self mill Zombies with a good rate, besides him and Mire Triton.

[Falkenbach]

I use to play stitcher and alway dumped an instant or sorcery in the yard which i would have rather kept in my hand. I would look more into loot effects like varina or surveil with Master of Death or effects like Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I've yet to find any additional self mill I'm really fond of. I seem to always end up being forced to throw something I'd rather not. All that said I think with the right means of recursion that does become less of an issue. And as well as this I tend to bake redundancy into my lists, so if I confidently know I have other options available I tend to be more confident in turfing things I might not be able to retrieve.

As an aside, anyone see the last Extra Turns episode from the Conmand Zone? Craig Blanchette played a Varina build. Admittedly I was hoping to see a better showing, it didn't seem all that well formed, it seemed more like Esper goodstuff than anything. Still, nice to see Esper Zombies in the mix.

[WWolfe]

Yea I was excited when they said he was playing Varina. Kind of let down, would be curious to see the full deck list he was running.

Edit- found the deck list he used. Not really feeling it

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/craigs- ... -turns-16/

[pokken]

20 creatures? Womp womp.

Not sure there are enough signets in there.

[WizardMN]

And among those 20 creatures, 7 aren't zombies. I don't expect every one to build a "pure" zombie deck but only having 13 zombies in the deck seems really really low. Omniscience seems really out of place here too. Honestly, almost all the enchantments do.

Now, we have quite the community of people in this thread trying to tune the deck so the list might stick out to us more in terms of "bad" includes, but even in general, there seem to be some questionable choices.

[yeti1069]

Looks like it's built to make zombie tokens of various types, but then doesn't have many of the reliable token makers. Would certainly benefit from Wilhelt, and probably the Puppet guy.

[Nimbaway]

Doesn't really feel like a coherent deck to me either, sure it can do stuff but enough cards just feel out of place. I mean, I do like Inkshield but the tokens simply don't synergize here, maybe if it had been more an aristocrat style of build, but even then it does little with Varina.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah it feels rough to tear into him, but I think he just picked the deck randomly and built goodstuff with only the merest hints of synergy. And for anyone who's seen the gameplay footage it shows. He literally wouldn't have been a threat at all in the game if he hadn't cast the Citadel. And the table gets beaten by someone who built a deck laden with synergy pieces to build a value engine. Honestly I was really pleased with the outcome. As someone who currently spends a ton more time brewing than playing these days I'll support the person who builds their deck well any day.

It is a shame though, generally he's one of the better deck builders on the show and it doesn't feel like he really gave it a fair shake.

[WWolfe]

It is a shame though, generally he's one of the better deck builders on the show and it doesn't feel like he really gave it a fair shake.

This is why I was disappointed in the episode. Don't get me wrong, I love how Pixie Kitten won with Juri and the synergy built into the deck, but the thing I was most excited from the start of the episode was seeing Craig's take on Varina. It really felt like he threw it together at the last minute to have a new deck to play like he was a fill in for someone else or something.

[toctheyounger]

It is a shame though, generally he's one of the better deck builders on the show and it doesn't feel like he really gave it a fair shake.

This is why I was disappointed in the episode. Don't get me wrong, I love how Pixie Kitten won with Juri and the synergy built into the deck, but the thing I was most excited from the start of the episode was seeing Craig's take on Varina. It really felt like he threw it together at the last minute to have a new deck to play like he was a fill in for someone else or something.

Yeah totally agree, it'swhy I watched, otherwise I'd just have left it for a later date. I thought Pixie earned the win and I'm pleased with that outcome. She never looked deterred, not once. And thats a lesson for anyone wanting to run goodstuff builds. But yeah Craig's deck was all over the place.

Again I don't really like to speak ill of people working hard on quality content, these guys are at the forefront of mtg production value, but their builds and gameplay are leaving me pretty disenchanted of late. I never want to see Jimmy play. His builds are just so all over the place. He'll jam whatever, so long as he can fit Dockside and Breach in. Last game he didn't even play his commander.

At any rate IHYD is where its at for quality gameplay for me. I'm also hanging out for Nitpicking Nerds to get some gameplay footage out there, I think they could put some pretty cool games together.

[Eburon]

I find it interesting how Craig's deck actually underperformed because he choose "goodstuff" over synergy. Some goodstuff cards have a place in the deck (think Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, premier removal spells), but cards like Omniscience and Inkshield have no place here.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah it really was a lesson. His curve would be considerably higher than ours and I just don't know what Omniscience was even supposed to achieve. Of the real goodstuff adds Citadel seemed to do quite well, but again, water is wet.

[yeti1069]

Citadel is probably especially good here: Varina gains life to offset the cost, and can swing to clear lands or reactive spells off the top to keep digging.

[Nimbaway]

When it comes to that, I might personally prefer Necropotence over Citadel. Spend life to fill the yard and dig for mass reanimation, you're likely to get more for less through that. It's risky with graveyard hate for sure, but being on a reanimation strategy always makes those hurt.

[toctheyounger]

Citadel is probably especially good here: Varina gains life to offset the cost, and can swing to clear lands or reactive spells off the top to keep digging.

I did mull it over to be honest. The only real deterrent for me is casting cost. I can't conceive of a way to bypass paying 6 for it, but I guess once it resolves your mana issues are gone, so it might be worth trialing.

Necro exiles every discard which is why it pretty much nonbos with our commander entirely.

[yeti1069]

I don't think we need it at all. Just pointing out that among the odd inclusions in that list this one e is good.

[toctheyounger]

I don't think we need it at all. Just pointing out that among the odd inclusions in that list this one e is good.

I mean it occupies the same sort of place that something like Empty the Laboratory does, of minimal input for big value. It does seem a bit surplus to requirements really, where Empty is guaranteed to hit.

[WizardMN]

When it comes to that, I might personally prefer Necropotence over Citadel. Spend life to fill the yard and dig for mass reanimation, you're likely to get more for less through that. It's risky with graveyard hate for sure, but being on a reanimation strategy always makes those hurt.

Necropotence *is* grave hate and actively works against Varina by exiling everything we discard off of her. I don't see a good way to fill the yard with Necropotence.

[pokken]

Necropotence *is* grave hate and actively works against Varina by exiling everything we discard off of her. I don't see a good way to fill the yard with Necropotence.

I want to say it works with Twilight's Call since it's a trigger to exile? Kinda awkward. works with Rally the Ancestors too in theory I guess.

[WizardMN]

I suppose that is true. Which, if I am being fair, isn't the worst use: "draw" 39 cards, discard to hand size, flash in Call to reanimate everything, then exile whatever is left. It doesn't work as well with Varina since we are discarding fewer at a time but the Necro/Twilight's Call interaction is kind of cool (even if it is exceptionally inconsistent).

[toctheyounger]

Well, my workday turned to garbage - working remotely and I can't access our RDS for whatever reason. It's been hours working it out, and the family is out of the house so I decided to get a game in.

It went very well. Kept a hand with 4 lands, Apprentice Necromancer, Undead Warchief and Epiphany at the Drownyard. I hit land drops all down the line, got Varina, Lich Queen down turn 4 and was already swinging. Without going fully into finer details which were mostly just making sure my play lines were solid, I filtered with Varina every turn until the end of the game, hit both Fact or Fiction and Epiphany at the Drownyard and sculpted my hand and graveyard very well.

I ended up beating the table down with multiple lords and finished off with Akroma's Will. So ultimately I guess it's pretty important to remember that combat is always a viable win option for us. I didn't hit a single mass reanimation spell and still did just fine.

Epiphany at the Drownyard - First time playing it, and it performed really well. Granted, my draws were Ashnod's Altar, Gravecrawler, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Godless Shrine for 3u, but it's still a nice option, which is good to finally confirm.

Undead Warchief - Performed really well again today. Snuck it into play with Animate Dead, and it helped with commander tax for Varina, Lich Queen.

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - I actually got to play it this game, and it was just as nuts as you'd expect. Nothing absolutely broken, just enough loose mana to keep on a roll.

Nothing really stellar to report other than actual gameplay and a really solid win, but it was still pleasing to see the deck perform well. I've still not picked up the new additions as of yet, so fingers crossed its all positive additions moving forward.

[plaganegra]

@toctheyounger

I think Nykthos easily wins a colorless land slot in this deck! Is anyone on the fence about this inclusion? If anyone is I am curious as to why.