Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

Have to agree with plaganegra regarding Solemnity. Unless you're restructuring your deck to lean more into combo it largely does nothing and runs the risk of turning on someone else's interactions. On top of that, if you WERE going more heavily combo, there are other combos that fit the deck better, with pieces that are generally useful.

Regarding Tormod, I just don't know if cards are leaving the yard enough to warrant his inclusion. Doubling up on Varina's activation is nice, but I don't necessarily use that more than a couple times each game. Has he been making a lot of tokens for you? I know you're running a few more of the auto-rez zombies.

[yeti1069]

I feel like Cleaver would work well in a slower deck that's looking to make some high value plays while holding up interaction, but he could work. Doubling up on a lord or an aristocrats piece could be good value. Curious to hear how it performs.

[toctheyounger]

Tormod, the Desecrator seems fine but I don't know that it goes full combo, at least, not easily. The way its worded is such that for every time any amount of cards leave your graveyard you get one token, not one for every card that leaves.

It means its much less useful in a generic non-combo setting. That being said if you can loop Gravecrawler you're golden. That can be said of many, many things though.

Points taken re Solemnity too. It does combo with 3-4 pieces but provides no synergy otherwise so I think barring a massive restructure its a pass.

[yeti1069]

I ran Tormod in my Black Rose deck briefly before swapping to Desecrated Tomb (1 mana less, more resilient, and the tokens come with evasion). Zombie tokens are obviously more valuable here, especially with Wilhelt coming in, but I don't know that I'd want to spend 4 mana on him.

[plaganegra]

@ChocoDude I completely agree! That doesnt mean there isnt a better option than Tormod, i just used him for the comparison. I do like him for the tokens though.

Myself I am not sure about the flying lord yet but I have it in my list. What are your thoughts on him? You cut the card pretty quickly, so I was curious if you could go a little deeper into your thinking on that specific addition.

@toctheyounger
Yes you are right. You only get one additional Tormod zombie for each varina activation. But getting 2x 2/2 zombies for 2 mana is pretty strong. And fuels the cycling ability and other aristocrat effects in the deck quite well.

It is very borderline to include it for only that reason though. When you add to that a few more auto-recur zombies to me it pushes it over the edge, for me anyway…

Still far from a "must run" even in my version of the deck. There are so many options with the higher cmc zombies its a really tough call on each slot past 3cmc for me

[Eburon]

One thing with Solemnity that I would want to be careful with is paying attention to what your opponents play to ensure you don't accidentally hand *them* a combo win. As you note, stuff like undying and persist go instantly infinite with a free sac outlet, and cards like Glacial Chasm can provide a lock for a number of win cons. So it'll be interesting (and probably meta dependent) to see as to whether it helps or hurts your opponents more.

On the other hand, it can also turn off combos. Double-edged sword, I guess

[pokken]

I am probably an exception but if someone combos off with my card I find that to be a fun thing not something to worry about I won a bunch of games comboing off with my friends' Norin deck's Pandemonium and Possibility Storm over the years and it was always a good play experience. Given how that stupid red enchantment that steals enchantments turns Norin the Wary into a veritable god with Ephara, God of the Polis I figured it equaled out.

Anyway I would not sweat losing to someone comboing with your Solemnity Fun.

[toctheyounger]

I am probably an exception but if someone combos off with my card I find that to be a fun thing not something to worry about I won a bunch of games comboing off with my friends' Norin deck's Pandemonium and Possibility Storm over the years and it was always a good play experience. Given how that stupid red enchantment that steals enchantments turns Norin the Wary into a veritable god with Ephara, God of the Polis I figured it equaled out.

Anyway I would not sweat losing to someone comboing with your Solemnity Fun.

Confusion in the Ranks is the one you're thinking of.

I still think I need a little more synergy before I commit to finding it a slot. I can't actually track down a copy at the minute anyway so its a moot point for now.

[plaganegra]

All the zombie cards not in the precon are increasing in value rapidly. If you have any extras now is the time to unload them I think.

I really regret not acquiring a rot hulk. Even though I dont have it in my list I would have liked to have access to one.

The Meathook massacre just keeps going up. Hope it comes down to earth at some point before it rotates out lol

[Falkenbach]

I bought a Meathook Massacre wanted to buy one while still affordable.. i can see it being the new great henge from eldraine. Anyone gonna try the meathook massacre out?

[yeti1069]

I was going to buy a Meathook, but then saw that it's well over $20 and took a pass. Maybe down the road when I'm certain what slot it would fill in a deck.

[toctheyounger]

I'm happy to wait until Meathook drops in price or rotates before I pick one up. Its a fine card and would likely perform well here but its not really a linchpin here anyway.

Also, good to know, I might unload some zombie chaff for a little store credit.

[Eburon]

Meathook is a standard staple, so that price will remain up there. I got gifted a box, so here is hoping I crack one ...

[Eburon]

Opened a borderless Empty the Laboratory yesterday. Guess I'll have a chance to update my list :D

[Nimbaway]

Empty the Laboratory contributed to a nice victory last night. Faced off with Kenrith, Esika and Karametra. The initial start was nice as t1 Changeling Outcast into t2 Sword of the Animist, making for nice rampy stabs the next turn, but other then that it was a slow start. Esika just had a bad night not hitting his colored mana, while Kenrith and Karametra tried to keep each other slightly in check but neither really succeeding. Having drawn the Empty and Tombstone Stairwell I opted to do some politics, offering up a boardwipe in favor of being left alone for a turn. They accepted and cast Living Death as the proverbial boardwipe, sending my four zombies to the yard and returning a lone Withered Wretch. Then finish up with putting the Stairwell on the board, so a round of tokens galore ensues but with the deal in place I'm safe seeing that opponents have more tokens due to more creatures in the yard.

Last end step I activate the Wretch to remove a Hofri from Kenrith's graveyard. My turn I pay for the Stairwell and cast Empty for X=5 and hit a nice spread: Grimgrin, Death Baron, Shepherd of Rot, Zombie Master and Balthor. The Zombie Master is slightly awkward, but I have Phyrexian Tower untapped should it get tough, as I get tokens swung by the next two opponents, one opts not to attack so the damage ends up being manageable. My turn I activate Balthor to get back the zombies killed by Living Death, including a Lord of the Undead and Corpse Knight. Spotting the trouble the Stairwell gets Krosan Gripped, so it stops some shennanigans. Shepherd still taps for a nice amount of damage and I swing with some swampwalking zombies at people, and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born at Kenrith to take care of Kenrith himself with the trigger. He Ghost Quarters his own swamp enabling blocks and put a lifelink creature in front of Grimgrin, opting not to give the life to him I sacrifice Grimgrin to my Phyrexian Tower, knowing I can get him back through Lord of the Undead. End result here is that I take down the Karametra player, Esika is in a spot where if Zombie Master lives he is out the next turn, Kenrith might still do some shenanigans. Esika plays a Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant as a hail mary, but has no way to get it killed. Kenrith surprisingly ends up going defensive here, as not swinging with his lifegain creature makes some difference. My turn I play two more zombies, making the Shepherd of Rot activation lethal to Kenrith and Esika goes down to unblockable swampwalkers.

[Tophat118]

I haven't seen a few cards mentioned in this forum.

Unburial rites combos amazing with intuition. Can be discarded with Varina.

Wake the Dead is amazing at instant speed. Combo with rot hulk for extra value.

Razaketh also seems great in this deck. Can grab combo zombies with all the tokens that are being created.

Show and Tell seems like a good fit. We get rot hulk or rooftop storm?

[pokken]

I haven't seen a few cards mentioned in this forum.

Unburial rites combos amazing with intuition. Can be discarded with Varina.

Wake the Dead is amazing at instant speed. Combo with rot hulk for extra value.

Razaketh also seems great in this deck. Can grab combo zombies with all the tokens that are being created.

Show and Tell seems like a good fit. We get rot hulk or rooftop storm?

Unburial Rites and Dread Return were discussed with intuition a few pages back by moi

Wake the Dead I can attest to being awesome from my similar Sygg deck.

Razaketh, the Foulblooded is not a friendmaker imho, great in this deck but man he is linear and annoying. It's definitely in the deck at higher power levels since you can Victimize zombies to reanimate him or whatever.

Show and Tell doesn't feel worth the risk since you need the hulk or storm in hand and may as well just cast them vs. letting someone else drop in an Omniscience or whatever. I'd play Dark Ritual or Culling the Weak or even Songs of the Damned first.

[WizardMN]

Unburial Rights is a little slow, but decent. For the most part, a lot of us are more all in on the mass reanimation plan. For single target reanimation, Apprentice Necromancer, Animate Dead, or Necromancy are the go-tos based on cost or, in the Necromancer's case, being a creature (though it is delayed because of that too). That isn't to say Rights isn't good and it could have a home in some decks.

Wake the Dead is too conditional/narrow to work. We can never attack with the Zombies so we lose that part of things. And while we aren't always winning through combat since we have a fair number of ETB triggers, the fact that we need to pay 7+ mana to really get enough Zombies for those triggers to do anything is rough. Again, it could be good in the right circumstances but for this one, the right circumstances are unlikely to occur often enough.

Razaketh, the Foulblooded isn't a zombie so he is out for me. And 8 mana is really a lot for this deck. He is powerful though and he can do a lot of good work. I don't think he is needed, and a lot of us has minimized most tutors in general so he doesn't fit. But, of the cards you mentioned, he might be the one most worth putting in on power level alone. Especially if you dig deeper into the single target reanimation plan to get him out earlier.

Show and Tell is the one that I think is an absolute no. Sure, Rooftop Storm or Rot Hulk aren't bad (though some of us aren't playing either one) and Razaketh could be good too. But our deck generally relies on quantity over quality to a certain respect. So while we can get a bomb here or there, we just aren't going to consistently. And even if we do, putting in Rot Hulk to an opponent's Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre which then smacks us is going to feel bad. Or letting someone else get their Omniscience is going to end up very poorly for us. We just don't have the critical mass of "bombs" for Show and Tell to even work and then actually put us ahead.

[Nimbaway]

I haven't seen a few cards mentioned in this forum.

Unburial rites combos amazing with intuition. Can be discarded with Varina.

Wake the Dead is amazing at instant speed. Combo with rot hulk for extra value.

Razaketh also seems great in this deck. Can grab combo zombies with all the tokens that are being created.

Show and Tell seems like a good fit. We get rot hulk or rooftop storm?

Certain cards tend to be looked at less here. As most players in this thread tend to be careful about adding non-zombie creatures for example. And while recently there has been more talk about combos, its not a strategy that everyone pursues. Like I personally not interested in leaning towards certain combos, as I enjoy that my version of Varina isn't too linear in how it plays out.

[pokken]

Wake the Dead is too conditional/narrow to work. We can never attack with the Zombies so we lose that part of things. And while we aren't always winning through combat since we have a fair number of ETB triggers, the fact that we need to pay 7+ mana to really get enough Zombies for those triggers to do anything is rough. Again, it could be good in the right circumstances but for this one, the right circumstances are unlikely to occur often enough.

Wake is a really, really powerful combo enabler and being able to do it at instant speed is especially brutal. Even in your guys' decks, a temporary mass reanimation that's instant speed and leaves things in your graveyard instead of exile is noteworthy (compare to Rally the Ancestors which exiles).

It's really not great if you're looking to midrange beatdown with your zombies but if you're looking to even do 'functionally infinite' combos like the old
-cast gary (and obviously pass turn)
-sac all my bros to phyrexian altar
-wake gary plus all my bros, gg.

For the build I am working on that is made up of mostly very cheap zombies that trigger making more zombies or go infinite (e.g Putrid Goblin + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed) I am definitely going to run wake.

the ability to sac dudes to various altars to pay for Wake and then reanimate them is really where the squeeze is -- that's the basic litmus test I would use, if you're on both altars you should probably be thinking about wake as one of your mass reanimation spells.

(because it's often going to be functionally free, and enable other windmill slam plays where you wake then re-sac all your bros for all the death triggers, then use the mana to cast a giant Epiphany at the Drownyard or whatever. Or Plumb the Forbidden all the guys you reanimate. etc. etc)

[WizardMN]

If looking at it within the context of combo, sure. But not a lot of us do much with combo and even @Tophat118 didn't say whether they were planning on using it as a combo enabler. So, I agree that if you are trying to use it to enable certain combos it can work pretty well but a lot of us here don't do that so my answer was predicated on the idea that Tophat wasn't doing that either.

If they are, you comment is far more applicable in terms of how good or bad the card is.

Outside of combo though, I don't agree that getting things back for that cost and hoping the ETB triggers are enough is worth it. Sure, they aren't exiled, but because we need to pay for each zombie (compared to Rally which gets us nearly every zombie for 5 mana and basically every zombie for 7 or 8 mana) it becomes tougher to swallow. Again, if looking at it outside the realm of combo where we just want a mass of zombies on the board I don't think it crosses the threshold into "good".

[pokken]

If looking at it within the context of combo, sure. But not a lot of us do much with combo and even @Tophat118 didn't say whether they were planning on using it as a combo enabler. So, I agree that if you are trying to use it to enable certain combos it can work pretty well but a lot of us here don't do that so my answer was predicated on the idea that Tophat wasn't doing that either.

If they are, you comment is far more applicable in terms of how good or bad the card is.

Outside of combo though, I don't agree that getting things back for that cost and hoping the ETB triggers are enough is worth it. Sure, they aren't exiled, but because we need to pay for each zombie (compared to Rally which gets us nearly every zombie for 5 mana and basically every zombie for 7 or 8 mana) it becomes tougher to swallow. Again, if looking at it outside the realm of combo where we just want a mass of zombies on the board I don't think it crosses the threshold into "good".

(I do think Tophat was looking to combo, based on the description of Razzledazzle getting combo zombies, but I might be overgeneralizing)

I think you're probably right for the most part. I do think there's a lot to be said for instant speed, both with wake and rally.

Another thing I didn't discuss is that if you're heavy on Grave Pact effects you can get a lot of mileage out of Wake as a board wipe that accrues some value from etbs/ltbs/etc., on the way.

But the biggest angle is definitely combo. If you're looking to maintain a board - outside of a few effects like Lifeline or Tormod, the Desecrator - wake is probably not what you want to be doing.

[WizardMN]

(I do think Tophat was looking to combo, based on the description of Razzledazzle getting combo zombies, but I might be overgeneralizing)

Fair enough. I saw "combo" in every card they mentioned when it wasn't really a combo...it was more just synergy so I took that to mean they just wanted high synergy not actual combo. Either could be right and hopefully Tophat lets us know

The Grave Pact effects comment is a good one too. Again, not things I think a lot of people are running in this thread but that interaction shouldn't be overlooked if they are being run.

[yeti1069]

Im waiting for the slate of new cards to come in the mail and then will be making some edits. Not sure that I'll be able to cut enough to fit the new cards AND Unburial Rites and Deep Analysis, but my intention is to find a way to get them into the deck. I think using the graveyard as more of a second hand alongside Varina's ability is going to be worthwhile, and has been under utilized thus far.

Rites, in particular, came in the Sefris deck and was good the two times I've seen it. Ultimately, a card like that comes down to whether the deck is running a lot of cheap zombies to swarm, or some higher costed ones for impact. Spending 5 mana to reanimate a 1 or 2 mana creature doesn't feel good. Even 5 for a 5 is not great, BUT spending 4 on a card you discarded anyway for some value may be more worthwhile.

[yeti1069]

As an aside, if anyone feels like it, I'd appreciate some feedback on the Sefris deck I posted. Ive been making edits, but haven't gotten any conversation going.