Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Eburon]

Definitely a card to consider and cheap to pick up too.

[toctheyounger]

Any thoughts on Corpse Cobble? It doesn't really fit the initial 2-drop slot as most likely there aren't many creatures on your board, but it could be a cheap evasive replacement creature post combat if a few of your zombies die. Or, toss it in the yard early on and cast it later. Would be great with Tombstone, but not sure what else.

I think its another decent, cheap, instant speed sac outlet. Which is awesome. I just think the payoff is slightly average. Comparing to Plumb the Forbidden, ill take card draw comparatively. If its one or the other anyway.

[Reya]

I could see Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver takes the slot of Bone Miser. Wilhelt is pure madness with Tombstone and a Wayward servant or Corpse knight. And it easely gives you one more draw on each of your turn. And bonus, it lowers the curve^^ AND it wrecks opponents with bleeders as well...

I think Bladestitched Skaab can takes the slot of Lord of the Accursed as a cheaper lord. I think I never used the Menace effect of Lord of the accursed in a hundred games... probably the most cuttable lord of the current list.

I'm thinkinkg of cutting Apprentice Necromancer too. I think I used it once in the past 2 years! BUT... the fact of playing Archfiend can justifiy playing it for me...

[plaganegra]

@Reya
Can you share your list with us? I am curious to see what you are cookin with.

[toctheyounger]

I could see Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver takes the slot of Bone Miser. Wilhelt is pure madness with Tombstone and a Wayward servant or Corpse knight. And it easely gives you one more draw on each of your turn. And bonus, it lowers the curve^^ AND it wrecks opponents with bleeders as well...

I think Bladestitched Skaab can takes the slot of Lord of the Accursed as a cheaper lord. I think I never used the Menace effect of Lord of the accursed in a hundred games... probably the most cuttable lord of the current list.

I'm thinkinkg of cutting Apprentice Necromancer too. I think I used it once in the past 2 years! BUT... the fact of playing Archfiend can justifiy playing it for me...

Cutting Apprentice is crazy to me. I get it that it taps so its slow, but your spot reanimation doesn't get any cheaper.

Lord of the Accursed is definitely the lord to cut. Ive used the menace but its fairly rare. I've actually been wondering if we really need any/many lords at all of late. They're really just there to make sure our stuff survives combat in most cases.

[WizardMN]

Which is why it is on the chopping block. Mystic Remora is a different story since I don't mind dropping it T1 and paying upkeep T2 since it will likely draw me cards.

@toctheyounger You are the only other person here that runs Rhystic Study. How has it been for you? I am thinking Epiphany at the Drownyard or Pull from Tomorrow might be better?

Study has been either very, very good for me with oodles of draw, or a slow grind of tax for your opponents. That's the fail case. And even at that point if you can capitalise on that tax with an early board state it is decent. I can definitely see not running it, but I've been pretty happy with it either way.

This has been my experience as well. Dropping it turn 3 ends up feeling fine since it doesn't really interfere with casting Varina turn 4. And it does provide reasonable card draw for very little investment. It isn't as explosive as Epiphany and Pull (I run the former but cut Pull due to double blue). And, as Toc mentioned, the tax isn't nothing. I have been on the other end of being taxed by Study and while it isn't game breaking it does slow things down which can be important too. Especially early on.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I think even a fail case of slowing things down for the table gives us time to set up our gig, which isn't half bad at all. Obviously you hope people are stupid enough to not pay, but even if they do, they still know what you're up to and its worthwhile.

[yeti1069]

I ran the Imp for a little while when I was still running all the discard payoffs like Ilfnir. Varina wants to be filling the hand to make the most value out of her trigger, not dumping it, and I found that I was rarely activating the Imp. Occasionally it was useful to dump zombies into mass reanimate, but the number of times I had it in play with a reanimate and bodies in hand were few and far between. Even fewer were times that I had all that and it didn't just make more sense to attack and loot with Varina out. The Imp has no real upside to the discards, unlike Infestation, so I cut it and haven't looked back. I'd definitely run Champion of the Parish over the Imp.

Mariner I liked the idea of, and I DO think the tax will have an effect on the game, but I'm not sure it's enough to warrant wu cost low on the curve. I've had plenty of games where I couldn't have gotten this down on turn 2, which defeats the point of running a low-cost zombie.

I've debated Rhystic and Mystic in here. The former really depends on your group I think. Do they pay the tax most of the time? Do they remove it on sight? For a while I didn't have them in here because they were in other decks, but they're in consideration now.

[toctheyounger]

I think really in order for the Putrid Imps and Zombie Infestations of the world to work out perfectly you really need a way to refuel your hand, something like Damia, Sage of Stone but in colour and way cheaper. And with Necropotence being a massive nonbo with this deck theres very little else that makes the discard outlets anything more than quite a short term opportunity.

[plaganegra]

I think really in order for the Putrid Imps and Zombie Infestations of the world to work out perfectly you really need a way to refuel your hand, something like Damia, Sage of Stone but in colour and way cheaper. And with Necropotence being a massive nonbo with this deck theres very little else that makes the discard outlets anything more than quite a short term opportunity.

I agree.

OR you need a reason to move something directly from your hand to the GY - aka a reanimator or a combo deck. Even though this deck runs a couple mass reanimate spells and occasionally a reanimate spell here or there it is far from the core strategy I see in the thread here.

Carrion Feeder is a much better "utility 1-drop" because free sac outlets are rare and valuable in zombie gameplay.

It just goes to show how bad our 1-drops are in zombies. We have a couple extremely good ones and then a bunch that you really have to look the other way when sleeving them up. For so long, modern zombie sets seem to want to self mill but there is rarely a payoff to justify the downside of that strategy. I am disappointed every time I see a zombie printed in a new set that self mills. Enough, wizards, please, lol.

I would again like to voice my frustration over Larder Zombie. but... WHY?

I really hope Stitcher Geralf shows up at some point, and not as a 4+ mana creature please lol. They did a great job with Ludevic, Necrogenius. Geralf deserves a much better card than he does imo.

But I would like to bring up a possibly overlooked inclusion: Shambling Ghast.
This guy is very efficient and replaces himself upon death. Getting a Treasure token or killing a dork is nothing to shake a stick at. It is a role-filler in a deck that wants to curve out before dropping varina. Doesn't really fit into many of the decks in the thread that go for more of the top-heavy mass reanimate strategies, however.

[yeti1069]

I think Zombie Infestation does enough to warrant including, especially alongside some MASSIVE draw potential with cards like Kindred Discovery. I know a lot of you have ditched some of these, but in the games where I draw and play KD or TAI and they stick for a turn I either win handily or get blown out by something I wouldn't have had any answers to anyway.

That aside, I definitely favor pitching zombies to the yard over pitching spells when I can help it. I generally try to keep a zombie in hand to play each turn when I'm low on cards, but I lean pretty heavily into the mass reanimation plan.

Shambling Ghast I kind of like. I ended up dismissing it because I tried the goblin version, Impulsive Thief, in my Marchesa the Black Rose deck, which REALLY wants small utility creatures to die and come back, and it felt a little underwhelming half the time I got it (that deck's hurdle, unlike Varina, is in seeing enough cards), so I figured the same creature in a deck that cares more about the quality of the individual creatures wouldn't bother. Maybe worth a shot.

[toctheyounger]

But I would like to bring up a possibly overlooked inclusion: Shambling Ghast.
This guy is very efficient and replaces himself upon death. Getting a Treasure token or killing a dork is nothing to shake a stick at. It is a role-filler in a deck that wants to curve out before dropping varina. Doesn't really fit into many of the decks in the thread that go for more of the top-heavy mass reanimate strategies, however.

So yeah I scryfalled for 1 CMC zombies earlier, and noticed I hadn't seen this one. Honestly, the D&D set just didn't hit any flavor points I wanted to hit, so I kind of just blanked on a lot of it. But this is reasonable. Incidentally it gives you infinite death triggers with Liliana, Untouched by Death. For what that's worth. But yeah, I should get one of these.

I think Zombie Infestation does enough to warrant including, especially alongside some MASSIVE draw potential with cards like Kindred Discovery. I know a lot of you have ditched some of these, but in the games where I draw and play KD or TAI and they stick for a turn I either win handily or get blown out by something I wouldn't have had any answers to anyway.

That aside, I definitely favor pitching zombies to the yard over pitching spells when I can help it. I generally try to keep a zombie in hand to play each turn when I'm low on cards, but I lean pretty heavily into the mass reanimation plan.

Shambling Ghast I kind of like. I ended up dismissing it because I tried the goblin version, Impulsive Thief, in my Marchesa the Black Rose deck, which REALLY wants small utility creatures to die and come back, and it felt a little underwhelming half the time I got it (that deck's hurdle, unlike Varina, is in seeing enough cards), so I figured the same creature in a deck that cares more about the quality of the individual creatures wouldn't bother. Maybe worth a shot.

I added Kindred back in, and never dropped the card doublers. They're our Damia, basically. I can make do without Infestation, I think though. It's very good in a pinch and I'm not averse to it joining the ranks again (Sevinne's Reclamation can get it too - and how much of an all-star is that card for everyone? It's been golden for me). I think for me when it comes to getting bodies on the field the price must be right, and there's times it's a little steep with infestation, which is why I pulled it. You kind of have to have some heavy draw going for it to really play out well.

I squeezed another game in today and had a pretty good showing Played against Prosper, Tome-Bound, Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools/Kraum, Ludevic's Opus and Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist/Anara, Wolvid Familiar. Got an early Mystic Remora in and stacked the yard with creatures, and after a Living Death to clear board, reanimated a Corpse Knight, Noosegraf Mob, Zombie Master and Undead Warchief.

That turned out to be a turning point for the game, as I had Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in hand, and while everyone else did their thing I ended up with 5 zombie tokens in play with a buff and swampwalk to start the turn, and 2 of the three players were in range enough to just knock out easy, so I swung in with the tokens, Varina and Zombie Master and ended the day for them. Combat does count sometimes.

At any rate, it might have been a bad move as I was left against an equipment voltron with no real way to remove equipment from the field, so I got taken out by a walking tank. Sword of Hearth and Home was an all star, blinking Stoneforge Mystic several times and just providing massive value. I'd earlier had Hour of Revelation exiled from my hand, which would've taken care of business, but otherwise it was just a bad break. I got myself a Tombstone Stairwell in play, but there just wasn't anything I could do to pull out a win.

Moral of this brief game report is Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study are very good, and I'm generally always pleased to see Noosegraf Mob too.

[Reya]

@Reya
Can you share your list with us? I am curious to see what you are cookin with.

There it is: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1457764-varina/fr

[Reya]

Some thoughts about my current list:

- I play the cheapest wrath effect available with Damn (mana value 2, dodges Gaddock, very versatile) and Toxic Deluge (best wipe available for us I think, we can easely recover the lost of life). Vanquish the Horde is on my mind here. (Archfiend of Ifnir is like my third wrath effect in my list! Noxious Ghouls could be the 4th wrath^^)

- I run 4 mass reanimation cards and I choose to include Balthor here because it's a zombie that can reanimate at instant speed. I don't care if we have to exile it as part of the cost because I do not run things to re-cast my reanimation spell at all. But this slot is in competition with Twilight's call because you can cast for 8 mana at instant speed (very expensive but a devastating end of turn spell). I need further testing to make my final choice! I used to have Agadeem's Awakening but it's realy too expensive to cast here and you cannot reanimate everything you want.

- I usualy play between 10 and 14 ramp effects in all my commander decks. In most games, you achieve victory by having access to more resources than your opponents and casting spells earlier. Esper struggles to ramp in general so I decided to play 10 cards to speed up the deck (Smothering Tithe, Altar, Sword of animist and 7 mana rocks that cost maximum 2 mana). I hate playing mana rock that cost 3, there are quite useless because our commander cost 4.

- I like to have access to 3 counterspell effects and have them cheap and effective (Mana Drain for ramping, Fierce Guardianship for a FoW effect and Swan Song because you only need to keep one mana open).

- I don't like Mystic Remora very much because you have to "waste" mana on your upkeep to keep it active. Rhystic is better from my point of view because it last longer and can draw you more cards in the long run. I think Mystic Remora need a proper timing to be very effective. Rhystic is always good and it draws you cards from creatures spells.

- I only play 2 cards for mass draws effects because I think adding Kindred Discovery is a little bit too much and I sometimes I feel like I'm overdrawing cards!

- For spot removal effects I try to play the most versatiles and effectives ones, too. Baleful Mastery is very nice here, you don't realy care if an opponent of your choice draw a card because you will exile a powerful threat for only 2 mana and you can hit annoying PW like Narset or Ashiok dream render. Generous Gift is an ok card for me but the new "Rite of Oblivion" could take this slot.

Edit: I will replace Agent of Erebos with Silversmote Ghoul (seems very synergic with Varina)

[WizardMN]

Some thoughts about my current list:

- I play the cheapest wrath effect available with Damn (mana value 2, dodges Gaddock, very versatile) and Toxic Deluge (best wipe available for us I think, we can easely recover the lost of life). Vanquish the Horde is on my mind here. (Archfiend of Ifnir is like my third wrath effect in my list! Noxious Ghouls could be the 4th wrath^^)

Noxious Ghoul has been stellar for me so far but the new white Wrath (which I think was touched on above) would probably be the next best option if you aren't sold on Ghoul. Otherwise, Deluge is awesome so I agree with that include. Winds of Abandon might be worth a look for you too. I have had pretty good success with that. And Living Death is (sort of) a Wrath as well so I usually count it in my wrath count.

- I run 4 mass reanimation cards and I choose to include Balthor here because it's a zombie that can reanimate at instant speed. I don't care if we have to exile it as part of the cost because I do not run things to re-cast my reanimation spell at all. But this slot is in competition with Twilight's call because you can cast for 8 mana at instant speed (very expensive but a devastating end of turn spell). I need further testing to make my final choice! I used to have Agadeem's Awakening but it's realy too expensive to cast here and you cannot reanimate everything you want.

I like Balthor but it is 7 mana (spread out over two turns of course) but importantly, it telegraphs our play a little too much for my liking. It basically just screams "exile my graveyard" and I prefer a bit more surprise with my reanimation. I don't think he is bad and he actually allows one mass reanimation to waterfall into another which can also be important. It also only returns Black and Red creatures compared to Twilight's Call and Living Death which could be relevant.

- I like to have access to 3 counterspell effects and have them cheap and effective (Mana Drain for ramping, Fierce Guardianship for a FoW effect and Swan Song because you only need to keep one mana open).

How has Swan Song been for you? There was a conversation about it a while back and things seemed fairly split on it due to the fact that it can't hit everything. I do think Delay ends up being better (it is what I ended up running based on the discussion that was had) but I could see Song being relevant in certain cases.

- I only play 2 cards for mass draws effects because I think adding Kindred Discovery is a little bit too much and I sometimes I feel like I'm overdrawing cards!

I agree and I have gone back and forth on Ageless Insight as well. I think things like Epiphany at the Drownyard and even Rhystic Study and things like Painful Truths end up being better. Well, not "better" in terms of more powerful, but more what the deck actually needs and I am pretty content with my draw suite so far.

Edit: I will replace Agent of Erebos with Silversmote Ghoul (seems very synergic with Varina)

I said it before and I will say it again: I don't think Silversmote Ghoul is that good. I agree it is synergistic but that synergy doesn't seem to offer a lot. I tried it and it is still in the deck until Midnight Hunt releases, but it is going to be one of my first cuts. If you do try it, I would like to hear your experiences with it. Cutting Agent is almost certainly the right call though. I cut him a long time ago and I haven't missed him at all.

[yeti1069]

I've been thinking about acquiring Balthor, but I also felt like he telegraphs a bit much. That said, I have been running Haunted Voyage without any other foretell cards, so as I continue to play it, opponents will start to realize what it is. So far, though, it's been really good. Had one game I foretold it the turn before an opponent wheeled, so I got to hang onto a mas removal which was SOLID. Paying 9 mana over two turns...not great, and 7 for the reanimation is also a bit steep, but I like that it is 100% one-sided.

I run Swan Song, Delay, and Arcane Denial. SS has on occasion been a dead card, but most of the time it's been a lifesaver. Especially to protect a mass reanimate. One of the only times I've wished it were something else was against Dauthi Voidwalker.

[Reya]

How has Swan Song been for you? There was a conversation about it a while back and things seemed fairly split on it due to the fact that it can't hit everything. I do think Delay ends up being better (it is what I ended up running based on the discussion that was had) but I could see Song being relevant in certain cases.

When I realy needed it, it was very appropriate answer for one blue mana, countering the counterspell targeting my mass reanimation.

I said it before and I will say it again: I don't think Silversmote Ghoul is that good. I agree it is synergistic but that synergy doesn't seem to offer a lot. I tried it and it is still in the deck until Midnight Hunt releases, but it is going to be one of my first cuts. If you do try it, I would like to hear your experiences with it. Cutting Agent is almost certainly the right call though. I cut him a long time ago and I haven't missed him at all

Agree that Ghoul is not amazing but it serves the goal the deck want to achieve. It's very easy to trigger it eot. I might cut it too, very soon after Midnight Hunt full spoiler.

[Reya]

Newest Spoiler:

"The Meathook Massacre"

XBB

Legendary Enchantment

When The Meathook Massacre enters the battlefield, each creature gets -X/-X until end of turn.

Whenever a creature you control dies, each opponent loses 1 life.

Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, you gain 1 life.

(Sorry I don't know how to generate picture from link).

I think it's very interesting for us. I don't know if it deserves a slot but it certainly worth a try.

Edit: amazing card with Tombstone Stairwell and Wrath effects. The more I think about the card, the more I think I will just slam it into my list!

[yeti1069]

Flexible boardwipe + aristocrat looks pretty sweet!

[Eburon]

Meathook Massacre is definitely interesting. It can serve as a wrath effect, but you can drop it for BB too if you have some sac effects to take advantage of.

My input on Zombie Infestation: Sometimes it is useless, but it can help create a board presence after a board wipe. Sometimes it shines if you had a mass draw effect (through a spell or through one of our zombie draw effects). Instead of having to discard down to 7, you just create bodies down to 7. It is good enough for me to keep playing it. Anecdotally, it did win me a game (was a few life shy of closing out the game and with a drainer in play was able to create the bodies I needed to drain the lost few points.

[plaganegra]

I cannot say enough good things about meathook massacre!

Clearly riffing on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre for ultimate flavor. It is yet another utility board wipe we have access to for this deck. It will definitely be included in my yawgmoth deck and any other aristocrats based strategy I have currently. It might also make the cut in Varina, for me personally where I would consider taking out another board wipe for this since it is very flexible. Not the bast at any of its effects, but it sticks and rounds out lots of gameplay options.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah, I like it a lot. Flavor home run, does what we want it to do and its recurrable via Reclamation or Hall of Heliod if thats in your build. I see no reason not to include it.

[Reya]

I could cut Rhystic Study to include The Meathook Massacre. The card synergize so well with the deck.

[Kvothe]

@Reya
I am with you on lowering the curve and possibly going wider.

+1
I think it's really important to drop Varina and immediately farm triggers.

Hello, friend! haha. I have been trying to maximize her triggers as my main objective for the deck. Glad to have you here! Cant wait to hear more of your thoughts on how to do that. It is not easy with so many options.

I posted my ideas for this deck in the one of the early pages of the thread, maybe page 5 or 6, but basically my main goal for the deck is to win through mass reanimation.
To that end I value farming triggers and filling the graveyard a lot. So I'm interested in low drops, multiple bodies for card that get extra triggers and pings from our pingers.
I don't place a lot of value on the lords, with exception of Diregraf Captain, because I don't find the buff particularly relevant and rarely win through combat alone.

With that said, Rhystic Study has been very good to me but I don't like Remora because I don't want to lose the tempo to pay the upkeep.
Stitcher's Supplier and Shambling Ghast are good, but I'm not interested in Champion of the Perished because it's only a body.
Entrails Feaster seems very bad.
I also liked the idea of Mariner, but in my playtest I found the mana cost is bad, the effect not really relevant and the aesthetic of the art does not fit with the deck eheh
Swan Song is very good. That said I chose to nut run any counterspells in my deck.
Massacre is a nice effect but it's not on a body, and doesn't work with reanimation so I'll skip it.

[Reya]

Interesting removal for multiplayer EDH:

Fateful Absence
1W
Instant
Destroy target creature or planeswalker. Its controller investigates.

Exile would have been huge. But it's still playable in a Varina Shell. I think I prefer Rite of Oblivion or Baleful Mastery.