Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[yeti1069]

Brief gameplay report on Liliana's Standard Bearer.

Cast a mass reanimation spell after running my team into blockers with 4 dying. LSB came back along with some other zombies, including Plague Belcher and Mikaeus. Put Belcher's -1/-1 counters on LSB before LSB trigger resolved, so it died, and came back, drawing a total of 10 cards. If I'd had a sac outlet in play, it could have drawn upwards of 20 cards on that play. As it was, it drew me into Carrion Feeder for the aristocrats win.

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Game memory sucks. Interestingly i was watching the latest episode of I Hate Your Deck* on YouTube over the weekend, and of all people the Prof held on to some salt from previous games and went right after one of the hosts. Lynch is a pretty good sport most of the time and they game super hard, but it still took me aback a little. If the prof gets salty I guess we all have a little leeway here and there.

Dude, Prof is petty as %$#% and I love it. There's multiple examples now of him animorphing into a living saltshaker.

*(Decline lol. I'd watch I hate your decline too though)

[toctheyounger]

Game memory sucks. Interestingly i was watching the latest episode of I Hate Your Deck* on YouTube over the weekend, and of all people the Prof held on to some salt from previous games and went right after one of the hosts. Lynch is a pretty good sport most of the time and they game super hard, but it still took me aback a little. If the prof gets salty I guess we all have a little leeway here and there.

Dude, Prof is petty as %$#% and I love it. There's multiple examples now of him animorphing into a living saltshaker.

*(Decline lol. I'd watch I hate your decline too though)

Yeah its kind of hilarious to be honest. It was all in good fun obviously, everyone had smiles. Prof is generally such a decent person that its funny as hell to see him lose it. It changes nothing for me anyway, I have utmost respect for him as a pillar of the community and an advocate for the penniless. I actually kinda wondered if they sort of hammed up that narrative anyway as both his channel and IHYD have both been fairly vocal of late about normalizing rule 0 talk. Which I dig too, its good to make that easier.

[plaganegra]

Brief gameplay report on Liliana's Standard Bearer.

Cast a mass reanimation spell after running my team into blockers with 4 dying. LSB came back along with some other zombies, including Plague Belcher and Mikaeus. Put Belcher's -1/-1 counters on LSB before LSB trigger resolved, so it died, and came back, drawing a total of 10 cards. If I'd had a sac outlet in play, it could have drawn upwards of 20 cards on that play. As it was, it drew me into Carrion Feeder for the aristocrats win.

This is a very nifty interaction I have never seen before. It seems LSB carries its own weight at times. I still fee like the card might be a bit too situational for me but with the right eye for plays like this I bet it would be more often than not you could leverage his effect in some creative way.

[WWolfe]

Brief gameplay report on Liliana's Standard Bearer.

Cast a mass reanimation spell after running my team into blockers with 4 dying. LSB came back along with some other zombies, including Plague Belcher and Mikaeus. Put Belcher's -1/-1 counters on LSB before LSB trigger resolved, so it died, and came back, drawing a total of 10 cards. If I'd had a sac outlet in play, it could have drawn upwards of 20 cards on that play. As it was, it drew me into Carrion Feeder for the aristocrats win.

I had a similar moment last night. Swinging out for lethal at the opponent I considered the biggest threat when another player cast Consume the Meek in a political move to keep them in the game to help deal with me. I had 18 zombies (mostly tokens at this point) on the field. Plopped down Liliana's Standard Bearer after combat and drew 18 cards. Among those 18 cards were Gravecrawler, Phyrexian Altar , and Diregraf Captain for the aristocrats win. I would have been slightly disappointed if I had drawn 18 cards and couldn't figure out a way to win the game from there but it felt like a really nice recovery.

[plaganegra]

I have decided to add a copy of wasteland and strip mine into most of my edh decks, including Varina to combat things like gaea's cradle, serra's sanctum, cabal coffers, and other high impact lands.

Just curious where others stand on this. Of course if you dont see those cards often in your playgroup it might not be necessary. I see them a lot in mine…

[yeti1069]

I have decided to add a copy of wasteland and strip mine into most of my edh decks, including Varina to combat things like gaea's cradle, serra's sanctum, cabal coffers, and other high impact lands.

Just curious where others stand on this. Of course if you dont see those cards often in your playgroup it might not be necessary. I see them a lot in mine…

I feel like every EDH deck should be running at least one way to remove a problematic land. The lands they do so are low impact enough that if you don't need them for that purpose they're still doing something. I've lost plenty of games to Glacial Chasm because no one could deal with it.

Field of Ruin is a nice one since it doesn't leave you down a land, although it ramps the players who didn't have a land blown up. It can be used politically, too. Costing mana to activate is a point against it, too. In my Varina list I've got a lone Strip Mine. I used to also run Vindicate but found I almost never used it on a land and the sorcery speed was a problem too often. Generous Gift is great here for that purpose--kills anything at instant speed for a reasonable cost. I don't love providing a blocker that can trade with over half the creatures in the deck, but it's not too big a downside.

[Signe]

This was so educational! I've been really interested in Zombie Tribal, but a little lost because the only tribals I've built in EDH have been Spirit and Minotaur, neither of which really plays the same. Thank you so much for such a detailed and helpful primer!

[Eburon]

One option for us to deal with problematic lands that is more versatile is Vindicate . I am usually not a fan of sorcery speed removal, but hitting any permanent is great.

[toctheyounger]

This was so educational! I've been really interested in Zombie Tribal, but a little lost because the only tribals I've built in EDH have been Spirit and Minotaur, neither of which really plays the same. Thank you so much for such a detailed and helpful primer!

Thank you, and kudos for getting through all of our ramblings! I hope you found it of value. And if you do decide to dip your toes you're very welcome to chime in.

Regarding land destruction I have no major issue with it in theory. I don't own Strip Mine, Wasteland or anything in between. Generous Gift seems appropriate in most cases to do what we need it to do, but the allure of having something in the land base is undeniable. Field of Ruin could do fine in that it al least replaces itself for us, or for a more minimal benefit to our opponents Ghost Quarter could do it too.

I guess there's scope to look at nastier options, but I don't know how far down the track of stax or labd destruction I really want to go. Were not really that well set up to work around either.

[toctheyounger]

One option for us to deal with problematic lands that is more versatile is Vindicate . I am usually not a fan of sorcery speed removal, but hitting any permanent is great.

Honestly i think I'd prefer Council's Judgment to this. Its actually a pretty decent card anyway, and exile is infinitely better for the sort of decks that wants Cradle, Coffers or Field of the Dead, considering how likely they are to come back. The voting aspect you can more or less force through and it allows you to sometimes deal with multiple threats.

The double white in its CMC could be problematic but I can't see it ever really bei g the end of the world, we're mostly capable of handling that splash of color.

I might actually grab a copy to test out here. Its cheap enough atm with recent reprints too.

[yeti1069]

Judgment is "nonland".

Yeah, some of the decks can get back lands blown up. Some can do it easily, some can't. And the ones they can may not be able to do so before the game ends. Exile removal is better than destruction, but that doesn't stop players from running Wrath of God, and there are far more ways to recur creatures than there are lands.

[toctheyounger]

Judgment is "nonland".

Yeah, some of the decks can get back lands blown up. Some can do it easily, some can't. And the ones they can may not be able to do so before the game ends. Exile removal is better than destruction, but that doesn't stop players from running Wrath of God, and there are far more ways to recur creatures than there are lands.

Oh I'm stupid lol.

[plaganegra]

Even if I were to include cards like generous gift I would still want access to LD right in the mana base itself to free up the removal spell for other things and provide more options in general. But saying that I am definitely going to consider generous gift in my list. I feel sorcery speed on vindicate is way too slow opposite of such a minimal downside on the gift.

I have always been a bit greedy in my mana bases with colorless lands and rarely included LD in those slots unless I could recur it in a stax deck, like with crucible. I dont think I would ever choose to include that sort of package in a Varina deck though. However, last time I played I saw too many cradles and sanctums and rarely had a way to interact with them. I wasnt even playing my varina deck in those circumstances, but it was sort of a wakeup call in general to run those cards more often. One game I was on mono black with Yawgmoth as my commander and I was just like - man I really need a wasteland in the worst way right now lol.

For what it's worth, strip mine is pretty budget friendly, and ghost quarter can be used on your own lands to fix a color. There are a lot of budget options for lands that kill other nonbasic lands actually.

Im taking out from my list a copy of fabled passage and vault of the archangel (which I never have the luxury to actually use) for strip mine and wasteland.

Also removing swords to plowshares for generous gift. I also have anguished unmaking in my deck and that or despark are the other options to take out. Any thoughts?

[pokken]

I would never play wasteland/strip mine in a 3c deck without green. Just greedy and a great way to get knocked off colors or left behind.

Varina goes right over the top of those decks; but not if you set yourself back a land to do nothing materially important.

[plaganegra]

I would never play wasteland/strip mine in a 3c deck without green. Just greedy and a great way to get knocked off colors or left behind.

Varina goes right over the top of those decks; but not if you set yourself back a land to do nothing materially important.

Do you not play any colorless lands in your deck at all? Kind of a hot take there imo.

You only sac your land if the situation calls for it. Otherwise you just have a colorless land…. I run a few colorless lands in every deck, but I also have a very strong mana base.

Saying Varina goes over the top of "those decks" really has no value. If you have an enchntress deck making 20+ mana per turn on a single serras sanctum - uhmmm. Nobody is going over the top of that sir lol

At that point the MOST materially important thing you can do is… to destroy the land making all the mana…

[toctheyounger]

I would never play wasteland/strip mine in a 3c deck without green. Just greedy and a great way to get knocked off colors or left behind.

Varina goes right over the top of those decks; but not if you set yourself back a land to do nothing materially important.

Do you not play any colorless lands in your deck at all? Kind of a hot take there imo

I think the implication was more the number of hoops required to recur land in this build. I'm not personally worried about the color splash but losing tempo to destroy a coffers or cradle would definitely hurt me.

Personally it's not something I'm going to pack specific tools for right now but I guess I'll see how times carries on. I think in general the best way to combat these permanents is player removal, and we have the capability of doing that a lot of the time so why stray from the path?

[plaganegra]

"Player removal?" id love to see the card that does that haha.

If your opponents are that far ahead, having extra removal that comes at a low cost (a land, which again - saccing is optional) is extremely valuable. (Also - i dont think anyone is advocating for recurring LD lands, so I dont know why we keep bringing this up?)

Generally someone with an active cradle or similar land is just going to outpace you so fast.

Unless you arent used to plying against these cards in every single match like I am perhaps. I play in a very high powered meta.

[toctheyounger]

"Player removal?" id love to see the card that does that haha.

If your opponents are that far ahead, having extra removal that comes at a low cost (a land, which again - saccing is optional) is extremely valuable. (Also - i dont think anyone is advocating for recurring LD lands, so I dont know why we keep bringing this up?)

Generally someone with an active cradle or similar land is just going to outpace you so fast.

Unless you arent used to plying against these cards in every single match like I am perhaps. I play in a very high powered meta.

Yeah its not something I see a lot of personally. Every now and but not enough to justify dropping coin on. I think if anything I'd be happy enough with a Field of Ruin. At least that way I'm not down a land to remove something.

[plaganegra]

Field of ruin is a solid choice imo. It might be better than the other two in this deck honestly. I would need to think about it some more but I might swap one of the two for it.

Also field of ruin can color fix you

[pokken]

Do you not play any colorless lands in your deck at all? Kind of a hot take there imo.

You only sac your land if the situation calls for it. Otherwise you just have a colorless land…. I run a few colorless lands in every deck, but I also have a very strong mana base.

Saying Varina goes over the top of "those decks" really has no value. If you have an enchntress deck making 20+ mana per turn on a single serras sanctum - uhmmm. Nobody is going over the top of that sir lol

At that point the MOST materially important thing you can do is… to destroy the land making all the mana…

In 3 color non-green decks I typically play 1 or 2 colorless lands at most. in varina, Volrath's Stronghold is so much better than Strip Mine (and there's another similar one that's zombie specific I think?).

In Ephara (which is my current deck with the most conceptual overlap with this one) I run only Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Field of the Dead and Ancient Tomb. In this deck, I'd likely run:

• phyrexian tower
• unholy grotto
• nykthos, shrine to nyx

as my only "colorless" lands, with Nykthos obviously being a bit of a stretch as colorless.

I'm probably an anomaly from a 'how reliable should your manabase be?' perspective though

(The tempo loss of putting yourself down a land is the main reason I stopped playing Strip Mine but the color demands factor in. Think about what has to align for a hand with a Strip Mine in it it to be good enough to make 1UWB without luck).

[plaganegra]

@pokken

i guess my point is very context oriented. When you have time to durdle, a land like volraths stronghold is fantastic, but when you are facing down some of the most oppressive lands in magic every match, well… a strip mine is vastly superior. You dont have time to play with a utility land like volrath's stronghold unless it can find you answers (which generally it cannot in this deck). Plus you probably want to dig farther into your deck.

I seem to get away just fine with 4-5 colorless lands in my three color decks (including nykthos). Drawing two in your first 4 turns is very unlikely, and that is the scenario you really don't want to have on your hands. I also run several mana rocks also though so that helps a lot with fitting in colorless lands

These are the colorless lands I am currently running:
Ancient Tomb
Nykthos
Reliquary Tower
Strip Mine
Wasteland

Strongly considering swapping one of the sac lands for field of ruin however which I am really warming up to. In My previous testing I had one less colorless land in this deck and if I find myself drawing too many next time I play I might either add another mana rock, or remove the reliquary tower.

Definitely a corner case, but last game I played reliquary tower negated an early jin gitaxias and I was very happy lol

[pokken]

I seem to get away just fine with 4-5 colorless lands in my three color decks (including nykthos). Drawing two in your first 4 turns is very unlikely, and that is the scenario you really don't want to have on your hands. I also run several mana rocks also though so that helps a lot with fitting in colorless lands

These are the colorless lands I am currently running:
Ancient Tomb
Nykthos
Reliquary Tower
Strip Mine
Wasteland

Strongly considering swapping one of the sac lands for field of ruin however which I am really warming up to. In My previous testing I had one less colorless land in this deck and if I find myself drawing too many next time I play I might either add another mana rock, or remove the reliquary tower.

Definitely a corner case, but last game I played reliquary tower negated an early jin gitaxias and I was very happy lol

It's really easy to forget about the times you get horked by them in my experience.

The idea of running Reliquary Tower in this deck is very confusing to me - you are almost happy to pitch stuff and although Varina lets you do so also it's nice not to depend on it. Your 7 best ought to get the job done But there's been a whole thread on that.

What is it that's happening to you from cradle exactly? In my experience when someone strip mines a cradle they always lose - I'll just loam it and then you put yourself down a land and I'm back to tapping it for 11. most of the lands referenced you can just go over the top of or remove what they do with it.

YMMV of course but I have not missed strip mine or wasteland once since cutting them and moving to more consistent mana.

edit to say: not running Unholy Grotto feels like almost objectively incorrect. It's not "durdly" to present repeated gray merchants for the win or protect Varina from commander tax. It's a wincon in itself almost (and with Varina often represents functional ramp).

[plaganegra]

I know you dont actually play this deck, but when you leverage varinas ability as much as I do, keeping cards in hand actually becomes quite valuable and I can still discard my zombies with her effect without issue. My deck has so much draw in it I find I want to keep more than 7 cards often. Which us a very good problem to have tbh.

I do see your point though on the tower. It will be the first to go.

I have played with unholy grotto/volraths stronghold for years and I rarely find it worth the mana and usually want to see as many cards as possible each game so pitting cards back on top is not usually what I am aiming for. I usually just play the cards in my hand, since it is usually so full. Its totally unnecessary with the way I play. It was much more useful for me in other zombie builds.

Im not sure I have to explain the many ways cradle-like lands can catapult one player ahead to the point of no return. Yeah sometimes it comes back, which emphasizes the usefulness of more removal. These are game warping cards….

Again. You arent going over the top of players abusing those. Because they draw, flood the board, and win. Just win.

[pokken]

I know you dont actually play this deck, but when you leverage varinas ability as much as I do, keeping cards in hand actually becomes quite valuable and I can still discard my zombies with her effect without issue. My deck has so much draw in it I find I want to keep more than 7 cards often. Which us a very good problem to have tbh.

I do see your point though on the tower. It will be the first to go.

I have played with unholy grotto/volraths stronghold for years and I rarely find it worth the mana and usually want to see as many cards as possible each game so pitting cards back on top is not usually what I am aiming for. I usually just play the cards in my hand, since it is usually so full. Its totally unnecessary with the way I play. It was much more useful for me in other zombie builds.

Im not sure I have to explain the many ways cradle-like lands can catapult one player ahead to the point of no return. Yeah sometimes it comes back, which emphasizes the usefulness of more removal. These are game warping cards….

Again. You arent going over the top of players abusing those. Because they draw, flood the board, and win. Just win.

In my experience (on both sides of the match) mass reanimation plus drain effects go over lands decks quite often; the mass reanimation spells are just so dang efficient and you can fill your yard just by bashing with cheap bros.

My experience with the Volrath's Stronghold effect is pretty much the polar opposite of yours; the number of games I've won with Sygg for example by just going "Gary, sac gary, volrath's gary, draw gary, gary, gg" is pretty high. There are so many medium goofy crap zombies you have to play that just replaying the ones people bothered to kill is usually the best thing you can be doing.

I'm fine to just disagree, though I think history is rapidly proving me right as random non-value Strip Mine is just not seeing much play as manabases drift down to 35 and 36 lands and people have so many ridiculous ramp strategies that don't depend on broken lands.