Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Nimbaway]

Search for azcanta
How is this for you? I never really thought about including this but to me it seems like a pseudo-ramp spell with card advantage upside. It looks like it would be very strong in the deck and could replace a signet for those looking to avoid artifacts. Or in addition to.

It has been okay for me so far, it initially let's you fill the yard a bit as most of the times I end up milling the top card with it. It's what the deck wants anyways and get's me closer to flipping, at which point it's another blue source which I'm always happy with and gives me a way to dig for a mass reanimate spell or other answer. Repeated draw effects can be tough and personally I don't want to go towards something like Phyrexian Arena. That said, I don't necessarily feel it's a must include, as a plain draw spell is much cheaper to acquire and can do well in it's place, like ChocoDude mentioned.

Wand of orcus
Have you gotten to try this yet? I stuck it in my chatterfang list and have been thinking about it in varina.

I've not gotten to run the deck since it's inclusion, but it makes chump blocking our zombies a tad bit harder and thus zombies might stick around for more Varina triggers. To me it's a back up Death Baron in that regard, with the upside that it doesn't screw up combat if they remove it since the deathtouch persists till end of turn. Getting zombie tokens off of it is mostly a bonus to me, it's not something I expect a lot.

Dihada's Ploy
Also seems good in the deck. Would love to hear your experience with it.

I've been rather enjoying it, mostly because I have found myself often needing those extra life points because those black draw spells/effects usually come with the cost of life. And even if you initially discard it with Varina you still get to use it later on, so unlike enough other non-creatures it's not a dead card in the graveyard.

@Nimbaway Agreed. Thanks for sharing your list. That's clever linking the URL to the color identity symbols. How do you do that?

You can add mana symbols with the fourth button, on the second row of where you place your posts/signature. Beyond that it's just a matter of putting that little bit of code in the URL-link stuff instead of plain text.

Code: Select all

[url=linkhere][sym=w][sym=u][sym=b][/url]

[ChocoDude]

@Nimbaway Thanks for that code example! My signature is updated now. That's pretty sweet!!

[yeti1069]

What do you think of Deep Analysis as a draw spell here? It's draw 4 for 6 mana and 3 life, or draw 2 from the yard for 2 mana and 3 life, which looks mostly better than nearly every other draw spell available for that graveyard option. Dihada's Ploy draws 4 for 6 and gains some life, and can be cast from the yard, but it discards 3 cards for the full effect or 2 from the yard. Draw 4, discard 3, gain 3+ life doesn't look as good when what we need are cards in hand.

Haven't seen anything else with Flashback, Jump-start, Madness, or Retrace that's comparable/worth running. Don't necessarily need setting that can be cast after discarding, but I'm liking the idea of that flexibility.

[ChocoDude]

I think it's ok, but...sorcery speed. Notion Rain was brought up earlier as an option that's in a similar vein being a sorcery. It doesn't have the possibility of drawing from the yard, but it can add to the yard with Surveil 2 allowing you the possibility of digging deeper into your library. I think folks liked the idea of Painful Truths more than Notion Rain though as you may be able to draw 3 for three mana and 3 life, IF you have all three colors. The fact that Deep Analysis can be played from the yard is nice though. Hmm... I feel like the four mana initial cast seems steep enough that I'd rather just pitch it to the yard the majority of the time, which means it's mostly a 2 mana, draw 2, and lose 3 sorcery in my mind. I'm sure there will be times where you just need the card draw, so four-mana-casts would occur in a pinch. It's an interesting card to mull over. Thanks for sharing!!

[plaganegra]

Search for azcanta
How is this for you? I never really thought about including this but to me it seems like a pseudo-ramp spell with card advantage upside. It looks like it would be very strong in the deck and could replace a signet for those looking to avoid artifacts. Or in addition to.

It has been okay for me so far, it initially let's you fill the yard a bit as most of the times I end up milling the top card with it. It's what the deck wants anyways and get's me closer to flipping, at which point it's another blue source which I'm always happy with and gives me a way to dig for a mass reanimate spell or other answer. Repeated draw effects can be tough and personally I don't want to go towards something like Phyrexian Arena. That said, I don't necessarily feel it's a must include, as a plain draw spell is much cheaper to acquire and can do well in it's place, like ChocoDude mentioned.

I am so happy to try this out. It provides some initial selection/mill, then ramps into a land that adds relevant cards to your hand in the late game. It is definitely not a must include, that's subjective anyway. But it is definitely something I have overlooked myself and has obvious and strong synergies with the deck's main goals and plugs some holes in the ramp/draw department. Thank you, thank you again for sharing.

@yeti1069 I think deep analysis is worth trying out purely for it's synergy with Varina's cycle trigger - I think I brought it up a little while ago when I was going hard on GY synergies that create card advantage and tempo plays. I picked one up to try but haven't found room for it yet. What would you swap out for it? Just curious.

Think Twice is similar and less expensive and an instant if you are looking to be more reactive. I think the rate on Deep analysis from the GY is what I would focus on though, and is where it really has the potential to shine over other options. If you don't really play with Varina out a lot it's probably not worth using these sorts of incremental effects as much...

[yeti1069]

What I like particularly with Deep Analysis (in theory) is that it's a real +2 card advantage from the yard. With most of the other draw spells being discussed you're down the card itself. So, Notion Rain, for example, is functionally discard 1, draw 2. Think Twice is the same for 4 mana, or is a pure draw 1 from the yard, but is being an instant better than an extra card and some life loss? From hand, Think Twice is a cantrip that doesn't do anything but replace itself and set up a second draw later. In a more reactive deck I would value that more.

I try to have Varina out as often as possible, and definitely struggle with keeping cards I want in hand through her trigger. Drawing more helps there, while discarding as part of that doesn't really. I haven't tried the bigger draw spells because I so rarely have a turn where what I want to do is spend 5+ mana just drawing cards. I know there's been some poo-pooing of Kindred Discovery as being exactly that, but it pays dividends if it gets to sit in play for a turn and there's ANY sort of board state. Then it is simply bonkers in some situations.

I like the idea of discarding a draw spell I don't care about and then being able to use it on the cheap from the yard.

[ChocoDude]

Yeah as I was writing my last response it was almost a train of consciousness dribbling out onto the cyberpage about Deep Analysis. The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. Your talk of a true 2 card draw from the yard has convinced me that I'd like to try it out. As I mentioned earlier about Dihada's Ploy, I did gain 7 life over two casts of the card, but as you said there was no real card gain. It's a looter really. The life gain was nice, but 6 mana. If you have a lot of cards in hand then the looting is GREAT!! I think I'm going to imagine Deep Analysis as an option each time I play Dihada's Ploy in the next few games and see which card would work better for me.

Would you be willing to share your decklist @yeti1069 ?

[toctheyounger]

I'm not overly convinced with Deep Analysis. It seems fine but not spectacular. I've considered Forbidden Alchemy here too and I think I like it better for digging deeper even if you don't end up with more in hand. Its also instant speed, so there's that. Regardless the flashback cost is a bit steep for me so I'd still prefer Fact or Fiction myself. It digs deep at extra speed, fills your yard, and still has the potential of giving more in hand than either of the flashback options.

All that being said its not innately repeatable so I can understand looking into those options.

[plaganegra]

I'm not overly convinced with Deep Analysis. It seems fine but not spectacular. I've considered Forbidden Alchemy here too and I think I like it better for digging deeper even if you don't end up with more in hand. Its also instant speed, so there's that. Regardless the flashback cost is a bit steep for me so I'd still prefer Fact or Fiction myself. It digs deep at extra speed, fills your yard, and still has the potential of giving more in hand than either of the flashback options.

All that being said its not innately repeatable so I can understand looking into those options.

These cards suit very different playstyles with the deck. Deep analysis begs to be discarded while fact or fiction is played from the hand. Forbidden Alchemy is kind of awkwardly between those two.

If you play Varina and swing a lot and are consistently cycling cards, Deep Analysis seems very strong and the others do not. Fact or fiction is a reactive spell that favors a more midrangey control strategy/playstyle. Your playstyle definitely seems to align with Fact or fiction much more than deep analysis.

Its easy to try and directly compare these cards as "draw" but this deck is so much more nuanced than that. Its really apples and oranges. Both are fruit but they are very different.

[toctheyounger]

I'm not overly convinced with Deep Analysis. It seems fine but not spectacular. I've considered Forbidden Alchemy here too and I think I like it better for digging deeper even if you don't end up with more in hand. Its also instant speed, so there's that. Regardless the flashback cost is a bit steep for me so I'd still prefer Fact or Fiction myself. It digs deep at extra speed, fills your yard, and still has the potential of giving more in hand than either of the flashback options.

All that being said its not innately repeatable so I can understand looking into those options.

These cards suit very different playstyles with the deck. Deep analysis begs to be discarded while fact or fiction is played from the hand. Forbidden Alchemy is kind of awkwardly between those two.

If you play Varina and swing a lot and are consistently cycling cards, Deep Analysis seems very strong and the others do not. Fact or fiction is a reactive spell that favors a more midrangey control strategy/playstyle. Your playstyle definitely seems to align with Fact or fiction much more than deep analysis.

Its easy to try and directly compare these cards as "draw" but this deck is so much more nuanced than that. Its really apples and oranges. Both are fruit but they are very different.

Yeah I mean I get that, I just don't know that this is a niche that really needs to be filled. Between Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Kindred Discovery, the draw doublers and on-creature-death triggers we're actually pretty #blessed for draw. Sometimes that doesn't reflect in gameplay though, and it feels a bit rough only running into the more expensive iterations. We've got some of the best in the format in any colour regardless, as well as a couple of ways to recur the permanent based stuff. Redundancy is nice, and I get that its very good to be able to discard stuff to a trigger and still cast it (especially if you don't have access to an extremely high-costed card like Snapcaster Mage), but I don't know that there's anything out there thats really good enough to warrant inclusion is all.

I think rather than comparing apples to oranges my intent was to say I'd rather run the most efficient draw I can than fill a niche in the deck with something that isn't quite up to snuff. Perhaps I'm being too dismissive of Deep Analysis and Dihada's Ploy but thats where I stand on it. Of course I've also had very little gameplay of late and still have some upgrades to make in the coming days so perhaps I'm a little out of touch with where everyone's heads are at currently too.

[plaganegra]

Yeah I mean I get that, I just don't know that this is a niche that really needs to be filled. Between Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Kindred Discovery, the draw doublers and on-creature-death triggers we're actually pretty #blessed for draw. Sometimes that doesn't reflect in gameplay though, and it feels a bit rough only running into the more expensive iterations. We've got some of the best in the format in any colour regardless, as well as a couple of ways to recur the permanent based stuff. Redundancy is nice, and I get that its very good to be able to discard stuff to a trigger and still cast it (especially if you don't have access to an extremely high-costed card like Snapcaster Mage), but I don't know that there's anything out there thats really good enough to warrant inclusion is all.

I think rather than comparing apples to oranges my intent was to say I'd rather run the most efficient draw I can than fill a niche in the deck with something that isn't quite up to snuff. Perhaps I'm being too dismissive of Deep Analysis and Dihada's Ploy but thats where I stand on it. Of course I've also had very little gameplay of late and still have some upgrades to make in the coming days so perhaps I'm a little out of touch with where everyone's heads are at currently too.

The point I have been trying to make about the deck seems to be getting lost over and over again. Which is that efficiency through the GY interaction of Varina's cycling ability is the niche to be filled - letting you dump things there that can be used later for free, reduced cost, or utility, allows you to use that #blessed card advantage to overwhelm your opponents with efficiency and win the game. It's a shift in focus from the current standard I think is worth bringing up.

When you have to discard, something like deep analysis is probably the most "efficient" draw spell you can possibly have in your hand. 2 cards for 2 mana and 3 life is an amazing rate for flashback. Making this one of the cheapest iterations of a draw mechanic in context. Of course that is a commitment to a very different style of play. At face value it can seem a lot more alike than it really is.

It is the difference between building around varina, or making a more generic zombie reanimator deck with esper goodstuff, to put it in another way. It is a continuum and there is no right way to go on it. The commander is multi-faceted.

To be fair I do not even have deep analysis in my list, but I see the same potential that others do... its been in my maybe-board for a while. It just depends how aggressive you want to be with the cycling trigger and what other draw spells you have access to. Not everyone has rhystic study etc

[toctheyounger]

Thats fair enough. After all its the reason Archfiend of Ifnir was in my list for a while.

I can definitely appreciate the angle you're working, and it is commendable. I think there's a good chance it could be quite a unique build to work into, with things like madness, delirium, jump-start and flashback.

Personally my thoughts are that while in theory I like these mechanics the practical applications of them to date don't really fit quite well enough into a shell I want to play. Current printings just don't feel strong enough. That does seem a little hypocritical considering how long I've been running Dralnu, Lich Lord as a mainstay build, but he's also currently the only card in the build with the flashback keyword on it.

I could be entirely wrong here, if you can cobble enough incremental advantage from discard and graveyard presence together there could be something there. It just doesn't feel like individually any of these effects are strong enough to do enough in this format. Again though, might be wrong.

[plaganegra]

I completely agree. Individually it's probably not the way to go. I would choose a more straight forward draw spell, But as more of a design philosophy and play-style centered around efficiency it seems to be powerful based on my experience. It's not a vastly different list of cards though, more of a subgroup within a zombie deck.

[toctheyounger]

I completely agree. Individually it's probably not the way to go. I would choose a more straight forward draw spell, But as more of a design philosophy and play-style centered around efficiency it seems to be powerful based on my experience. It's not a vastly different list of cards though, more of a subgroup within a zombie deck.

Yeah I mean I'm very much open to the idea as new printings come through. Madness is a cool mechanic for this deck, but printings to date have, to my mind, seemed to not scale well to edh. Flashabck fares a little better but not by enough, to me. You never know though, Innistrad 3: Electric Boogaloo could have some cool stuff for us. We've seen both madness and flashback on the plane before, fingers crossed they push the mechanics just a little further.

[RedCheese]

Champion of the Perished

Love it! Cheap Zombie that can get really big.

[toctheyounger]

Champion of the Perished

Love it! Cheap Zombie that can get really big.

I love the play on words, clearly its a throwback to Champion of the Parish. Hilarious.

It seems fine anyway. The CMC is right, even if the rest of it is relatively vanilla.

[BeneTleilax]

I think Consider at least merits consideration. Opt has been borderline playable here for a while, and this is Opt that can fill your graveyard a bit.

[toctheyounger]

I think Consider at least merits consideration. Opt has been borderline playable here for a while, and this is Opt that can fill your graveyard a bit.

It is very efficiently costed and does what it does well.

[pokken]

I don't understand why you would ever play Consider in this deck. It's so much worse than Ponder and you don't play that. The adding one card to the yard and instant is not worth being so much worse.

I don't think this is a cantrip deck; so many of your cards are individually weak that digging 1 or 2 is just not good. Your dig/card advantage sources need to be pretty explosive or extremely efficient.

Enlightened Tutor / Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor are all better than any 1 mana cantrip in this deck too - tutoring can be kinda lame and they are expensive, but still worth thinking about if you're going to try to find room for the 7th best cantrip in the format

[yeti1069]

I don't understand why you would ever play Consider in this deck. It's so much worse than Ponder and you don't play that. The adding one card to the yard and instant is not worth being so much worse.

I don't think this is a cantrip deck; so many of your cards are individually weak that digging 1 or 2 is just not good. Your dig/card advantage sources need to be pretty explosive or extremely efficient.

Enlightened Tutor / Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor are all better than any 1 mana cantrip in this deck too - tutoring can be kinda lame and they are expensive, but still worth thinking about if you're going to try to find room for the 7th best cantrip in the format

Agreed.

[louis0nfire]

Has anyone tried running Coat of Arms? I'm curious how good it is in this deck. I ordered a copy to try but haven't played with it yet.

[Eburon]

@ChocoDude

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Varina, Lich Queen

Lands (36)

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Caves of Koilos

1 Command Tower

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Fetid Heath

1 Fetid Pools

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

3 Island

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Phyrexian Tower

5 Plains

1 Sunken Hollow

8 Swamp

1 Unclaimed Territory

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of Champions

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Creatures (31)

1 Agent of Erebos

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Archfiend of Ifnir

1 Binding Mummy

1 Bone Miser

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Corpse Knight

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 Fleshbag Marauder

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Gravecrawler

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Liliana's Standard Bearer

1 Lord of the Accursed

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Master of Death

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Noxious Ghoul

1 Plague Belcher

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Undead Augur

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wayward Servant

1 Withered Wretch

1 Zombie Master

Sorceries (8)

1 Living Death

1 Painful Truths

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Twilight's Call

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Zombie Apocalypse

Instants (12)

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Arcane Denial

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Despark

1 Fracture

1 Generous Gift

1 Mirrorweave

1 Mission Briefing

1 Plumb the Forbidden

1 Path to Exile

1 Swan Song

1 Read the Runes

1 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)

1 Arcane Signet

1 Orzhov Signet

1 Dimir Signet

1 Phyrexian Altar

1 Sol Ring

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

Enchantments (4)

1 Mystic Remora

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Zombie Infestation

1 Rhystic Study

Approximate Total Cost:

[Nimbaway]

Consider is a decent card, but don't feel it fits here. I don't run any of the other cantrips, the deck isn't that fast paced so the need for those cards are just less in my opinion.

Champion of the Perished or perhaps more Champion of the Perished Chump Blocker, looks great but gets chump blocked for days due to being just a vanilla zombie. It's nicely costed though and could get big, but not something I see having a home in my current shell.

Has anyone tried running Coat of Arms? I'm curious how good it is in this deck. I ordered a copy to try but haven't played with it yet.

Depends quite a bit on your meta I feel, because if there are many token decks around this card tends to do more for your opponents than yourself. Which is the main reason I generally don't play it unless I can really flood the board and Varina doesn't do that enough for me.

Also, it makes each combat step tedious with people having to go figure out power/toughness of creatures.

[toctheyounger]

Yep as good as Consider is in terms of efficiency it definitely seems more like a 60-card format all star if anything. I agree with @pokken for this spot. I think if you want tutors or top deck fixers for this deck, the Mirage block Tutors are where its at. If I had an Enlightened Tutor in my collection, this is where it'd go.

Likewise with Champion of the Parody. Its low to the ground and can get big but it has no evasion or anything else special about it. I've got Diregraf Colossus which gets big and gives me extra bodies, so that niche is filled and then some.

Nonetheless, its encouraging to see zombies spoiled so early. It gives me hope that there could be some neat new tech for us incoming. Innistrad is more or less our mecca for optimal zombie picks, so...*crosses fingers*

Agreed re Coat of Arms. I don't think its ever going to be the best deck for it, I think it'll always be best in elfball or goblins. Which means running it here there's a real chance of backfire. It does still present an option as a nice compact combat win condition if timed right, but I don't know that its always going to be as good as it could be elsewhere.

[plaganegra]

I have been thinking about trying Training Grounds in my deck. Has anyone else ever tested this card?

Making a 2/2 zombie for 1 mana consistently with Varina, Lich Queen's exile ability seems pretty powerful. I have used the ability quite a bit as a mana sink after holding up interaction, and doubling it's efficiency seems good for a 1 mana investment. It pays for itself in "card advantage" (making a body) and mana efficiency with one activation.

There are many zombies out there that might benefit from this reduction, currently in my deck it is only Varina, but I have her out most of the time I am piloting the deck.

I probably wont grab one until it is reprinted in a meaningful way, but it is interesting to think about.

Of course if you build your deck with minimal Varina synergies it probably makes little sense to include...