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Like, it's definitely obnoxious and awful, but I'm curious exactly how much of a problem it would actually be. The inherent card disadvantage is a real cost for pretty much anything other than a dedicated 8-Rack deck.
How much tron hate did they just release in this set? I think it was what 3 to 4 cards?Simto wrote: ↑3 years agoBreak the Ice
Just %$#% ban the tron lands Wizards and be done with it instead of this %$#%.
Which is why I said outside of a dedicated shell. If you can turn 1 Grief + Eohemerate, it's a 3 for 4, you are trading 3 cards (Grief, exiled card to cast, and Eph) for a body and 3 Thoughtseizes. Which is great value and miserable. Outside of this exact scenario though, I don't know how obnoxious or good it actually is. A lot of people make obnoxious things seem worse than they are, or awful things look better than they are. We'll know in a few weeks!iTaLenTZ wrote: ↑3 years agoThere is no card disadvantage when playing Griephemerate. You trade 2 cards to get a 3/2 menace on the board while discarding your opponent's 3 best spells. My friend and I stopped playtesting it because of the non-games it creates. He doesn't want to play against it any more and I fully understand.
The entire deck is build around synergies and creating card/board advantage. Ephemerate is not as dead as a card in the midgame as some like to make out. Using it on a Wasteland Strangler can be game winning.
4x Griefcfusionpm wrote: ↑3 years agoWhich is why I said outside of a dedicated shell. If you can turn 1 Grief + Eohemerate, it's a 3 for 4, you are trading 3 cards (Grief, exiled card to cast, and Eph) for a body and 3 Thoughtseizes. Which is great value and miserable. Outside of this exact scenario though, I don't know how obnoxious or good it actually is. A lot of people make obnoxious things seem worse than they are, or awful things look better than they are. We'll know in a few weeks!iTaLenTZ wrote: ↑3 years agoThere is no card disadvantage when playing Griephemerate. You trade 2 cards to get a 3/2 menace on the board while discarding your opponent's 3 best spells. My friend and I stopped playtesting it because of the non-games it creates. He doesn't want to play against it any more and I fully understand.
The entire deck is build around synergies and creating card/board advantage. Ephemerate is not as dead as a card in the midgame as some like to make out. Using it on a Wasteland Strangler can be game winning.
I think the real thing is if it's worth mulliganing to 4 for W land + Grief + black card + Eph.
But I mean, you have to be playing a lot of black cards to facilitate casting it for free, and white mana to cast Ephemerate. And to be Turn 1, that means 14+ W sources. Right now, there are 0 meaningful WB meta decks, and Esper Control doesn't want to mess with Ephemerate. So if one wants to put this into an off-meta deck in hopes of making it good, awesome! Let's see what happens! If it's too good, ban it! A single counterspell or killing it with the blink trigger on the stack completely fizzles the "combo" and leaves them wasting 3 cards to Thoughtseize once. I think whether or not it's a problem depends 100% on how many stubborn aggressive mulligan players are going to try and jam it, just like when NeoBrand was new.robertleva wrote: ↑3 years ago4x Grief
4x Ephemerate
This is the actual shell. You can build around this and go a whole bunch of different ways, but this the new "hogaak of mh2". Expect bans or rules change.
There's also the Force of Will conundrum: You need ~16 other black cards to reliably evoke it. Also, a FoN/Solitude on Ephemerate/Grief is a 3 for 3, so you both mulliganned to 4.cfusionpm wrote: ↑3 years agoBut I mean, you have to be playing a lot of black cards to facilitate casting it for free, and white mana to cast Ephemerate. And to be Turn 1, that means 14+ W sources. Right now, there are 0 meaningful WB meta decks, and Esper Control doesn't want to mess with Ephemerate. So if one wants to put this into an off-meta deck in hopes of making it good, awesome! Let's see what happens! If it's too good, ban it! A single counterspell or killing it with the blink trigger on the stack completely fizzles the "combo" and leaves them wasting 3 cards to Thoughtseize once. I think whether or not it's a problem depends 100% on how many stubborn aggressive mulligan players are going to try and jam it, just like when NeoBrand was new.
Putting too many 4+ CMC cards in a Bob deck is asking for trouble, so while it might become a thing, I reckon it'll be more annoying/feel bad than OP.Albegas wrote: ↑3 years agoI don't think the absence of a good BW deck is much of a defense. I could see this fitting in a BW midrange deck using SFM and/or Dark Confidant to offset the card disadvantage and still have game even without mulling into the combo. The combo is also devastating on the play where your only outs are the U and W elements from the same cycle and FoN. That being said, I'm remaining optimistic. I'm not 100% sold on Grief ruining the format, and if Grief is banned and is the worst thing to happen as a result of MH2, this will look a lot better than MH1
Sure? I mean, those decks have never been good, so hooray for interactive midrange decks getting a boost?
Sure? But so was NeoBrand. Except Grisselbrand wins the game. And while a 3/2 and 3 discards is good, you still got a lot of turns left to actually win the game after the stars need to align in the first place. I could imagine it's a lot like TTB/Emrakul. A lot of times it "wins" on the spot. And more times than you'd think, it doesn't get the job done, and you've exhausted all your resources trying to be cute.The combo is also devastating on the play where your only outs are the U and W elements from the same cycle and FoN.
Definitely agree here. So far nothing looks TOOOOO obnoxious besides this and Dauthi Voidwalker.That being said, I'm remaining optimistic. I'm not 100% sold on Grief ruining the format, and if Grief is banned and is the worst thing to happen as a result of MH2, this will look a lot better than MH1
I don't think it's quite as rigid as you imply. The shell is quite flexible in reality.Bearscape wrote: ↑3 years agoThe deck design space of Grief/Ephemerate goes further than just having to be heavily BW. As @cfusionpm said, you are probably playing some kind of interactive midrange deck. You need plenty of Ephemerate targets, and the 3/2 Menace body of Grief has to actually be relevant, i.e. you should be playing a bunch of beatdown creatures. What I think is important to mention, is that simply evoking Grief would probably be really bad in those shells (midrange deck 2 for 1ing itself just for a Thoughtseize).
There is only a 15% chance you have both Grief and Ephemerate in your opening hand. And on top of that you need a black card to pitch.
T1 Grief + Ephemerate is indeed insanely power and, frankly, an obnoxious interaction I'm not looking forward to being blown out by. But saying "this is the next Hogaak", a deck that flipped over its entire library on turn 2, before the set is even out, is a little silly. MH2 will undoubtably have a massive effect on Modern, and I think having measured responses gives for better discussion than immediately predicting bans and claiming tron is dead for the tenth time.
Sorry can you elaborate? I dont follow.
I remember saw one brought up the interaction of cascade and Profane Tutor, and they brought up a good point. Sure, you can BB or Shardless Agent into Profane tutor, but what are you really grabbing? They're usually run in fair midrange decks built on redundancy in threats and answers, none of which are usually backbreaking on their own and would still need to be cast using mana. Not only that, you'd have to run a card that's generally not great to cast on its own until late in the game when you have the spare mana to suspend it. So, while you certainly could run it in a BGx midrange shell, it's not about to make BUG Midrange a T4 violator, and I just don't see it boosting classic Jund out of the hole it's been buried in over the years. If anything's going to break Profane Tutor (and that's a big if in my opinion), it's more likely be an As Foretold deck or some other combo deck than any fair decks
I think he's talking about this:
All the decks you're naming are midrange decks; there will be few matchups where those kinds of decks are willing to 2 for 1 themselves just for a Thoughtseize. Look at Unmask in Legacy; only combo decks play it. There is also a real cost to running a card like Ephemerate; it's a nice way to get 2 for 1'd if your opponent uses removal in response, and it's an abysmal topdeck. You'll also need turn 1 white, so even if you splash just for Ephemerate, you need to adjust your manabase accordingly. Finally, as I already said, with 4 Ephemerate and 4 Grief in your deck, the odds are less than 15% that you can perform the combo on turn 1. Again, I think the card is really powerful (and frankly I'm not a fan of its design), but you're only looking at the best case scenarios.robertleva wrote: ↑3 years agoI don't think it's quite as rigid as you imply. The shell is quite flexible in reality.Bearscape wrote: ↑3 years agoThe deck design space of Grief/Ephemerate goes further than just having to be heavily BW. As @cfusionpm said, you are probably playing some kind of interactive midrange deck. You need plenty of Ephemerate targets, and the 3/2 Menace body of Grief has to actually be relevant, i.e. you should be playing a bunch of beatdown creatures. What I think is important to mention, is that simply evoking Grief would probably be really bad in those shells (midrange deck 2 for 1ing itself just for a Thoughtseize).
There is only a 15% chance you have both Grief and Ephemerate in your opening hand. And on top of that you need a black card to pitch.
T1 Grief + Ephemerate is indeed insanely power and, frankly, an obnoxious interaction I'm not looking forward to being blown out by. But saying "this is the next Hogaak", a deck that flipped over its entire library on turn 2, before the set is even out, is a little silly. MH2 will undoubtably have a massive effect on Modern, and I think having measured responses gives for better discussion than immediately predicting bans and claiming tron is dead for the tenth time.
-You can be mono black (control or aggro) and just splash white for ephemerate
-You can be esper blade, just make sure you use black removal suite instead of white
-You can be jund and splash white or just use Malakir's Rebirth
-You can be junk, again use black removal, ephemerate gets more targets
-You can be orzhov stoneblade (brews)
The list goes on into new territory with new MH2 cards. Who knows what busted ass deck can take advantage of grief combo because it doesnt take up much deck space.
So yeah, expect to see grief combo all over the place. Now picture getting hit with it on turn 1 before you have even played a card. It's so devastating you are basically ruined right there. Dont forget, after he is done ripping 3 cards from your hand he's still on the table swinging at you. And oh look! I drew another ephemerate. I'll cast it when you try to kill the grief, or maybe I'll bounce it during your draw step for lulz! Talk about unfun! When combos are unfun + busted af = ban hammer.
Phyrexian is now a card type for all the infect dudes (glistener, agent etc.) as well as Plague Enginner. They have all had the type phyrexian added to them.