[mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - North Star

[3drinks]

Friday, May 21st, 2021; Expropriate

Oh boy.......

[TheAmericanSpirit]

This thing again. The best I can say in it's favor is that it's been a long time since I've seen one. And if I never see it again, it'll be too soon. Nothing aggravates me more than that one person who always decides, "Nah, I wanna keep my Craw Wurm Equivalent. You can have an extra turn instead." I almost dislike that person more than the caster of this obnoxious crap.

On the flip side, this is 9 mana. You should win if it goes your way, otherwise what are you paying for? I personally prefer more succinct endings; just burn me out for a billion or whatever and let's move on. I have little patience for extra turns, especially against people with super nonlinear wincons/game inexperience. No amount of money ever bought a second of time, so if you can't make a win happen quickly with extra permanents and turns then you're literally killing your opponents with tiny little time shavings. Don't do that to people.

[Outcryqq]

I missed Havengul Lich yesterday. Wow, I'm really surprised at the shade he received. He's a house in my Lord of Tresserhorn zombie deck. With Rooftop Storm he's really really good.

But on to today's card, Expropriate. Two things that a lot of players don't like on one powerful card: extra turns and permanent theft. It's powerful, and in lists designed to abuse it, it's degenerate. I've never seen it cast and though "gee golly, that's a fun card!". But I'll concede that 9 mana value sorcery spells SHOULD close to end a game, and if someone can finish the game off relatively quickly after this, I won't feel too butthurt.

[Lifeless]

Boo and yuck. On the Scrambleverse eye-roller scale I give this an 8.

[pokken]

Might wanna link to the ban thread on the subject.

This card puts the t in trash. It's next kin to Tooth and Nail. Torment of Hailfire and Craterhoof Behemoth in my opinion for uninteractive garbage that ends games.

10: win the game is something the need to stop putting on sorceries (* and yes Craterhoof is basically a sorcery because of the ETB)

[MeowZeDung]

One card combos are neither fun nor interesting to play with or against.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[Guardman]

This card is the definition of Ugh. At the worst they are taking one extra turn and three powerful permanents. At worst they are taking three extra turns and my best permanent.

On the bright side, I can't tell you how many games I've won off of flipping this card off of a Chaos Wand activation.

[BeneTleilax]

Hate it. Abrupt wincons make for bad games.

[Lifeless]

If anything this card is a great example of Wizards struggle with designing cards for EDH. On the face it seems like a card that EDH players would love - it's big and splashy and maybe wins the game, but in reality low power tables are going to hate it and high power tables are never going to play a 9 cmc card fairly. This is a card for nobody designed by a jerk.

[MeowZeDung]

On the bright side, I can't tell you how many games I've won off of flipping this card off of a Chaos Wand activation.

Ha ha haaaaaa get rekt.

Y'know, I never played conspiracy, but this was probably fine there where you weren't stealing degenerate permanents and getting to 9 mana wasn't so trivial. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I feel the slightest pang of sympathy for r&d developing cards that are cool and strong in their intended environment while not ruining other environments. It goes the other way too - see Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being pure poison in standard, but mostly fine in commander and cube.

[Dunharrow]

Cards like this make me wish the RC would adopt new policies for what should be banned. Big cards that always win the game are not fun.

[Lifeless]

On the bright side, I can't tell you how many games I've won off of flipping this card off of a Chaos Wand activation.

Ha ha haaaaaa get rekt.

Y'know, I never played conspiracy, but this was probably fine there where you weren't stealing degenerate permanents and getting to 9 mana wasn't so trivial. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I feel the slightest pang of sympathy for r&d developing cards that are cool and strong in their intended environment while not ruining other environments. It goes the other way too - see Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath being pure poison in standard, but mostly fine in commander and cube.

I have played a ton of Conspiracy and we even have a Conspiracy cube that we play all the time. This card would have been a welcome addition to Conspiracy 1 draft as these were commonly a slog due to an overall lack of evasion in the format. In Conspiracy 2 this wasn't nearly as much of an issue - in that format blue is actually pretty broken and Expropriate makes it even worse.

[3drinks]

Might wanna link to the ban thread on the subject..

There's a reason I explicitly stay out of the banlist discussion topic.

Ha ha haaaaaa get rekt.

Open up your command prompt and type that.

sudo apt-get rekt

👀👀

[Mookie]

Expropriate is a card that exists. Its base level is Time Warp + Blatant Thievery, which is extremely strong. If an opponent decides to give you another extra turn, it gets even nastier. That usually won't happen outside something like that person controlling an Eldrazi or other big scary thing that will immediately kill them, but.... some people really don't like having their stuff stolen. If you cast Expropriate, you'll usually either win the game immediately, or generate enough tempo and value that you'll win after a few turns. Nine mana is a lot, but it's not a number that is impossible to reach for a dedicated deck either.

Speaking more broadly, I'll agree with the 'WotC doesn't understand EDH' point, but it's also the case that they may understand the format too well. A lot of these problem cards are the MTG equivalent of junk food - they see that people like ramping, drawing cards, and casting big, splashy stuff.... so we get ramp, card draw and big, splashy things to cast. I think part of the issue is that the splashy spells have become more self-contained and efficient. If you're casting Storm Herd or Conflux, that is a high-risk, high-reward play that is going to need some setup or support, since they won't end the game by themselves. On the other hand, Expropriate, Torment of Hailfire, and Ruinous Ultimatum don't need any support other than the mana to cast them. I'm not a fan of any single card being capable of ending the game by itself.

[3drinks]

On the other hand, Expropriate, Torment of Hailfire, and Ruinous Ultimatum don't need any support other than the mana to cast them. I'm not a fan of any single card being capable of ending the game by itself.

Tbf, Ruinous Ultimatum is fairly tame all things considered. Yes, it has parallels to Cy Rift, but being sorcery and without the alt cost if you have it on t2, it's really just a fairly strong, and efficient board wipe. A good wipe mind you, but at that cost and speed, a fair one. Certainly poos all over Violent Ultimatum though. There's far worse ultimatums alone that are much more egregiously gross than this card, which even I as the mardu guy, haven't found a real need or excuse to sleve this up. Too often it just sits dead in my hand, either uncastable or unnecessary.

[hyalopterouslemur]

This can be fair. Gain control of one permanent from each player. TBH, I think extra turns are mostly overrated as well. Normally the easy way is Charmbreaker Devils, exile my yars, Time Warp Alternatively, Ezuri, Claw of Progress can use Sage of Hours and Deranged Hermit. So, two easy ways. And if you want stealing, I direct you to Memnarch decks. Or Insurrection.

As this card lets opponents pick, it can never be good.

[Rumpy5897]

Speaking more broadly, I'll agree with the 'WotC doesn't understand EDH' point, but it's also the case that they may understand the format too well. A lot of these problem cards are the MTG equivalent of junk food - they see that people like ramping, drawing cards, and casting big, splashy stuff.... so we get ramp, card draw and big, splashy things to cast.

This is a very interesting point actually. What sort of cards could one consider healthy for EDH? At what level of inefficiency does a card stop being potentially problematic?

[Guardman]

This can be fair. Gain control of one permanent from each player. TBH, I think extra turns are mostly overrated as well. Normally the easy way is Charmbreaker Devils, exile my yars, Time Warp Alternatively, Ezuri, Claw of Progress can use Sage of Hours and Deranged Hermit. So, two easy ways. And if you want stealing, I direct you to Memnarch decks. Or Insurrection.

As this card lets opponents pick, it can never be good.

My personal favorite way to take infinite turns.

Step 1: Cast any extra turn spell. (I'm partial for Karn's Temporal Sundering)
Step 2: Ult Tezzeret, Artifice Master.
Step 2: Grab Timestream Navigator at end step and get the City's Blessing.
Step 3: Take your extra turn and activate Timestream Navigator.
Step 4: Repeat steps 2 & 3.

Is it any less annoying than Nexus of Fate or Expropriate. Probably not. But if you pull it off, you ****ing earned your infinite turns.

[Mookie]

Speaking more broadly, I'll agree with the 'WotC doesn't understand EDH' point, but it's also the case that they may understand the format too well. A lot of these problem cards are the MTG equivalent of junk food - they see that people like ramping, drawing cards, and casting big, splashy stuff.... so we get ramp, card draw and big, splashy things to cast.

This is a very interesting point actually. What sort of cards could one consider healthy for EDH? At what level of inefficiency does a card stop being potentially problematic?

Hard to say any specific cards are healthier than others, but philosophically I'd say that healthy cards are ones that lead to fun games. Different people consider different types of games fun, so there isn't a strict definition for that.

....that said, I generally prefer back-and-forth games over snowbally ones. The theoretical advantage bar should ideally look like a sine wave, instead of something that strictly increases / decreases. Cards like Expropriate are really, really hard to come back from. On the other hand, board wipes and removal tend to push for a more cyclical pattern - the further ahead someone is, the more likely someone will board wipe and reset things. On the other hand, that style of game tends to be pretty long, since anyone getting too far ahead and threatening to win will just result in a board wipe returning things back to nil.

In quadrant theory terms, I feel like cards that are better when you're behind (like board wipes and removal) are healthy, while cards that are better when you're ahead (such as Craterhoof Behemoth and extra turn spells) are unhealthy. Cards that are good at parity or while developing are generally more neutral.

[3drinks]

Hard to say any specific cards are healthier than others, but philosophically I'd say that healthy cards are ones that lead to fun games. Different people consider different types of games fun, so there isn't a strict definition for that.

....that said, I generally prefer back-and-forth games over snowbally ones. The theoretical advantage bar should ideally look like a sine wave, instead of something that strictly increases / decreases. Cards like Expropriate are really, really hard to come back from. On the other hand, board wipes and removal tend to push for a more cyclical pattern - the further ahead someone is, the more likely someone will board wipe and reset things. On the other hand, that style of game tends to be pretty long, since anyone getting too far ahead and threatening to win will just result in a board wipe returning things back to nil.

In quadrant theory terms, I feel like cards that are better when you're behind (like board wipes and removal) are healthy, while cards that are better when you're ahead (such as Craterhoof Behemoth and extra turn spells) are unhealthy. Cards that are good at parity or while developing are generally more neutral.

Math terms mixed with Magic. It's like you're after my own heart.

[duducrash]

I used to play it until I got to play against it. It's all arround unfun. Expropriate, Triumph of the Hordes and that white enchantment that makes everything a vanilla 1/1

[FenrirRex]

I enjoy big dumb spells and Expropriate is on the farthest end of that, still narrowly within range of things I'm okay with casting. Now, admittedly, most of the decks in my group are still pretty much just battlecruiser decks, so stealing permanents and getting an extra turn may not even be enough to break the lines once we're up to nine-mana juggernaut plays. When the lines themselves are tighter and more swingy, this card is backbreaking and potentially busted, but I have less issue with this than a more classic Insurrection most of the time.

[BeneTleilax]

n quadrant theory terms, I feel like cards that are better when you're behind (like board wipes and removal) are healthy, while cards that are better when you're ahead (such as Craterhoof Behemoth and extra turn spells) are unhealthy. Cards that are good at parity or while developing are generally more neutral.

think part of the issue is that the splashy spells have become more self-contained and efficient. If you're casting Storm Herd or Conflux, that is a high-risk, high-reward play that is going to need some setup or support, since they won't end the game by themselves.

These statements seem to contradict. If something requires setup, it generally requires you to be ahead or at least doing well enough to do your thing. Value pieces and removal should favor people who are behind, but wincons either require support or let people win out of nowhere. As for myself, I'd rather someone who's ahead capitalize on what they've played and win off of that than someone who looked like they were no threat suddenly dropping an Emergent Ultimatum or something and winning out of nowhere. I'm fine with Hoof for that reason, if someone's spent some time developing a large board, then I'm cool with them running over everyone with it. I'm not wild about people playing Avenger into Hoof or similar lines though, because those wins are too sudden and too self-contained. I'm even fine with extra turns, though they tend to be win-more in their non-loop uses.

[Mookie]

These statements seem to contradict. If something requires setup, it generally requires you to be ahead or at least doing well enough to do your thing. Value pieces and removal should favor people who are behind, but wincons either require support or let people win out of nowhere. <snip>

Hmmmmm.... I certainly won't claim to be 100% consistent in my rambling. That said, I will elaborate a bit. I feel that a win condition like Storm Herd or Conflux won't win the game by itself. For Storm Herd, you need for your creatures to survive a turn cycle to attack. For Conflux, again, you need a turn cycle or so to actually cast the spells you fetch. You need to do something after resolving them to push them across the finish line, which means your opponents have an opportunity to interact.

On the other hand, I feel like Craterhoof Behemoth and Expropriate push you over the finish line by themselves, assuming you cast them from an already good position. There isn't really a window for your opponents to interact after them - they have to interact by not letting you reach that good position in the first place, which is significantly more difficult.

Now, it's certainly possible for the former spells to win out of nowhere - if you have Dream Halls to cast your Conflux cards immediately, or Pandemonium to win immediately off Storm Herd. Simultaneously, it's possible for the latter spells to need additional support - maybe you cast Craterhoof Behemoth with only a few creatures out, and need to flicker it repeatedly to generate lethal. Or maybe you use Expropriate to steal a single threatening creature, which you now need to protect so it can deal enough damage. But in general, I think that win conditions that need support after they resolve are more interesting than the ones that you only cast when they win you the game immediately.

,,,,or something like that. As mentioned, I am rambling a bit.

[Hermes_]

I ran it in my suspendJhoira of the Ghitu deck, but i never got around to actually suspending it.