[Announcement] Ban List Update

[cryogen]

Commander Banned List Update, 8 July 2019

ADMIN
Philosophy Document Update

CARDS
Paradox Engine is banned
Iona, Shield of Emeria is banned
Painter's Servant is unbanned

RULES
No changes.

The Philosophy Document update coalesces the important elements of how we think about the format into a concise and easily-digestible set of ideals, answering the question "what is Commander?" We haven't changed the underlying philosophy of Commander: it's specifically intended to be something other than a tournament format in which players consider each other's experiences alongside their own. You'll notice that we've eliminated categories for banning cards. We'd found that many folks misinterpreted them as hard criteria for banning as opposed the guidelines we always considered them. There might be some common threads among banned cards, but the primary reason cards get put on the list is that they challenge the positive experience we want to promote.

Paradox Engine is a card that has proven to be intensely problematic. Not only does it provide easy wins seemingly out of nowhere, it has demonstrated the potential to unintentionally wreck games. Easily inserted into any deck, it combines with cards which players already have heavy incentives to play, generating a great deal of mana with virtually no deck building cost. While we don't ban cards which are only problematic if you build around them, Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn't need to be built around to be broken.

Iona, Shield of Emeria creates a negative experience for many players without the benefit of a positive application. We had previously considered its high mana cost sufficient to keep it from getting played, but deeper investigation demonstrated many ways of getting it onto the battlefield without paying that cost. Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games.

Painter's Servant is a card that's been discussed for a long time and it's time to take off the shackles. We feel as though there are now more weird and fun uses for the card than there are dangerous ones. The card will provide deck builders with some additional paths to explore in expressing their creativity.

Many thanks to the Commander Advisory Group for the input and insights into putting together this update. Their presence continues to add great value to the format.

[Candlemane]

Paradox Engine. Buh-Bye.

EDIT: These bans / unbans aren't on the official ban list from mtgcommander.net as of 8:25 am PST. Is there going to be an update to that list, or is that list somewhere else now?

[pokken]

And don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[RedCheese]

And you shall not be missed. Glad that i traded it off a long time ago, the card was really unfun and din't contributed nothing to the format other then combo.

[cryogen]

Paradox Engine. Buh-Bye.

EDIT: These bans / unbans aren't on the official ban list from mtgcommander.net as of 8:25 am PST. Is there going to be an update to that list, or is that list somewhere else now?

The official site will surely be updated, once it is back up and not crashed due to being overwhelmed by the number of visitors.

[Candlemane]

Paradox Engine. Buh-Bye.

EDIT: These bans / unbans aren't on the official ban list from mtgcommander.net as of 8:25 am PST. Is there going to be an update to that list, or is that list somewhere else now?

The official site will surely be updated, once it is back up and not crashed due to being overwhelmed by the number of visitors.

Yep, thar it is. List updated.

I haven't had the experience of being up against Paradox Engine where it wasn't immediately destroyed, but I've never heard anything good about it from people who played against it when it stuck.

Emeria I've never seen, but the ruling is totally understandable. Maybe that's why I never got to play Yennett without being hated out...

I don't know enough about Painter's Servant to have an opinion there, but I know my friend will be overjoyed, which causes me concern lol.

[benjameenbear]

I agree that both cards being banned is absolutely reasonable and fine, so I'm not too upset honestly. But...

Sad day. As an avid cEDH U player, I'm sad to wave Paradox Engine goodbye.

It was hella fun while it lasted!

[pokken]

I will say it is a bit disappointing to see their language on Paradox Engine be a bit hyperbolic. Leaves it open to questioning and complaining. It definitely requires a little bit of building around but it's just not much Also not "easily insert into any deck" in my opinion. We had so much productive discussion about it and I think my reasons for banning it were a bit more precise than theirs.

But man I am glad to never see that piece of crap again.

My markup below

Paradox Engine is a card that has proven to be intensely problematic. Not only does it provide easy wins seemingly out of nowhere, it has demonstrated the potential to unintentionally wreck games. Easily inserted into many decks, it combines with cards which players already have heavy incentives to play, generating a great deal of mana often very early in games with virtually no minimal deck building cost. While we don’t ban cards which are only problematic if you build around them, Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn’t need to be built around to be broken strongly synergizes with enough different gameplans to be too easily broken casually.

[cfusionpm]

I never actually used the copy of Paradox Engine I had sitting in my "pile of commander stuff" box... Should have sold it!

[SocorroTortoise]

Very reasonable changes. I don't think Iona has ever been a net positive for the format and the color identity rules have always made it awkward. Engine has been borderline at best for its entire existence. The things that make it problematic (plenty of mana ramp and card draw) are things that most decks already want.

Servant seems like a fine unban. There are interesting interactions with it and the most egregious lock isn't an option anymore. There's the obvious combo with Grindstone, which doesn't really seem like a problem, and the lock with Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, which is unlikely to happen accidentally all that often and requires 10 mana to play in a single turn. I'll definitely try it out in Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, if only to head off all of the suggestions over the weeks and years to come.

[cryogen]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I played Paradox Engine one time and pulled it from my deck and refused to play it again.

[3drinks]

Whoops, I didn't see this topic posted first.

Personally, I think this is a joke and the explanations Sheldon lists are disingenuous-at-best, and conflicting towards the real vision of the format at worst.

"We want to create a fun environment where everyone can play!"
also sheldon: unbans P-Hulk in a format where Flash is legal to ensure every game consistently and meaninglessly ends on t2. surprisedpikachu.gif

[cryogen]

Whoops, I didn't see this topic posted first.

Personally, I think this is a joke and the explanations Sheldon lists are disingenuous-at-best, and conflicting towards the real vision of the format at worst.

"We want to create a fun environment where everyone can play!"
also sheldon: unbans P-Hulk in a format where Flash is legal to ensure every game consistently and meaninglessly ends on t2. surprisedpikachu.gif

I think I can count the number of times I've seen Flash played outside of tournament Commander on zero hands?

[WizardMN]

PE was the main reason I stopped going to a particular LGS so I am definitely not sorry to see it gone. I have not seen it since then but others obviously have and the potential for degeneracy was always there.

Iona was a card I felt just went against the format (specifically, the color identity rule) and it never really offered much beyond a lock piece. Again, not sorry to see it go.

I have been on board with a Servant unban for a while, but I think I mentioned it before on MTGSalvation: with its unbanning comes some trepidation. I do wholeheartedly believe its uses outside of things like Grindstone will make it a fun card and there are plenty of 2 card combos already so its use with Grindstone isn't a huge concern. But, I wonder if people will dive further into those combos with Servant more so than the "fun" uses. Time will tell I suppose.

[Hermes_]

I already decided that if I see PS+grindstone plus some graveyard exiling combo i'm scooping

[Rumpy5897]

I think I'm in the minority, but I never felt Paradox Engine was anywhere near as busted as the general EDH populace made it out to be. Every single time I'd hear Josh/Jimmy rag on it on Command Zone episodes, I'd roll my eyes. Don't get me wrong, it's a strong card, but not a yardstick to measure ridiculousness by, yet alone deserving a spot in the Hall of Infamy. I don't follow the rhetoric of the banning justification - the fact it only untapped non-lands led to a deck building trade-off, wherein you had to balance the potential of being wiped to the stone age versus the dork/rock explosiveness gain off this thing. It only became properly busted in shells like Captain Sisay or Azami, Lady of Scrolls that would reliably pack untappable ways to replenish their hand, but those didn't really need the help anyway.

To illustrate my point, I'd like to use the two of my decks that actually ran the Engine. In Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca it was honestly nothing special, and would get lapped by Intruder Alarm for sheer value. However, that list ventures very sparingly into non-land mana, as it's green. Why would you willingly make your mana killable if you can get away with sensibly costed land ramp? By contrast, it was a major player in Feather, the Redeemed. The list's curve was nonexistent, and it'd effortlessly rip through the entirety of its hand the moment the Engine would land. It typically won the same turn, be it via an Isochron Scepter combo or a finite yet ridiculous stream of value backed up by a Fishbowl or something. Yes, it was monstrous there. However, the rock heaviness remains just as ill-advised as when I started typing this post up, and spamming 1-2 CMC stuff is not what most decks tend to do.

[Dragonlover]

"We want to create a fun environment where everyone can play!"
also sheldon: unbans P-Hulk in a format where Flash is legal to ensure every game consistently and meaninglessly ends on t2. surprisedpikachu.gif

I too have never seen this happen. Remember, your meta is not everyone else's meta.

As to the bans, I'll have to pull Iona out of mono-W which sucks as that deck has days where it needs all the help it can get. I'll probably swap in either Sephara or Zetalpa.

Dragonlover

[tstorm823]

I now have to carefully consider what deck to build for Painter's Servant. It's so niche as to not seamlessly slot into Zedruu.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

Iona is anti-fun and Paradox is degenerate, so I won't miss either. Painter is a card I'm only now discovering for the first time, an I frankly can't see how one would play it: anyone cares to enlighten me?

[SocorroTortoise]

Painter is a card I'm only now discovering for the first time, an I frankly can't see how one would play it: anyone cares to enlighten me?

It's very much a support card. There's a couple nastier combos left: Grindstone, which mills out a player a turn, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, which repeatedly Armageddons. The next step down is enabling color hate cards, like Deathgrip or Lifeforce. Below that, there's the less potent color hate cards, like most of the ones printed in the last 10-15 years, things like Great Sable Stag or Lifebane Zombie. I'd also lump very niche uses, like turning off card=sword of fire and ice]Swords of X and Y[/card] off, into that category.

The big reason people are interested in it is probably for generals that are specifically interested in certain colors. I know I'll try it out in Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Momir Vig, Simic Visionary and Eight-and-a-Half-Tails decks are both likely to consider it as well. Most of those interactions are potentially strong but not broken. It also gives Reaper King one more legal scarecrow for anyone playing an actual tribal deck with it.

[toctheyounger]

I can see why Engine is banned even though I don’t share the belief that it totally deserves it. It’s strong, sure, Is it broken? To my mind, it’s only as broken as the brew you put it in. Oh well. Gives me some trade value at least, and there’s options for Dralnu still.

[Sheriff]

Paradox Engine shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 5-mana do nothing that requires other permanents in play to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

If anything, it hurts janky commanders that needed Paradox Engine to get extra value/be used as an "engine".. Which is a shame. (RIP my Seton deck.. Literally unplayable now. On second thought, as ironic as it sounds, the PE ban might actually let me BE able to play it again, because now it'd be weak enough to vs casual decks.. Whereas before it was too strong for casual games, but too weak for competitive ones. lmao.)

PS.

"Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games."

So... Back to Basics/Blood Moon ban when?

[RedCheese]

Paradox Engine shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 5-mana do nothing that requires other permanents in play to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

If anything, it hurts janky commanders that needed Paradox Engine to get extra value/be used as an "engine".. Which is a shame. (RIP my Seton deck.. Literally unplayable now. On second thought, as ironic as it sounds, the PE ban might actually let me BE able to play it again, because now it'd be weak enough to vs casual decks.. Whereas before it was too strong for casual games, but too weak for competitive ones. lmao.)

PS.

"Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games."

So... Back to Basics/Blood Moon ban when?

Erayo, Soratami Ascendant shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 2-mana do nothing that requires casting a bunch of spells in one turn to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

Leovold, Emissary of Trest shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 3-mana do nothing creature that requireswheel efefcts to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 15-mana .. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve, it's on them.

Panoptic Mirror shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 5-mana do nothing that requires speecific spells to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them..

Prophet of Kruphix shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 4-mana do nothing that requires creatures in your hand to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

Tolarian Academy shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a land that does nothing that requires other permanents in play to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

Yawgmoth's Bargain shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 6-mana enchantment that does nothing on board. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.

Biorhythm shouldn't have been banned in my opinion; it's a 8-mana spell that requires creatures in play to start doing stuff.. And if the table allowed all of that to resolve/stick around, it's on them.


I can go on....

[toctheyounger]

Le sigh.

All argument aside, what's done is done. They're out of the format, there's no point in debating it any further. If you disagree with the decision, come to an arrangement with your meta.

[Henlock]

I see the Iona ban more as a casualty of Painter Servant's unban. I don't quite buy the "philosophy" behind the ban, but I can see why they wouldn't want them together