The DCC Discussion Thread

[wizyard]

yeah that works fine, the reveal was my main concern

[bravelion83]

I think bravelion83 has yet another month in the bag. Void would have to score 9 more points than Leo today in order to steal it.

I wouldn't say "yet another"... It would be my fourth DCC win EVER and the first since 2022. I started playing in the DCC in 2015 and then took a break from the contest once but it was back when we were still on Salvation, here on MTGNexus I've participated continuously since the very beginning of the site except for the one single month that I've been in the hospital. I have only three victories in the DCC, one on Salvation (and tied, not even by myself) and two here, ever. An average of less than one win per year. I'm probably one of the people who has won this contest the least if you take into account a good six or seven years of overall constant playing. This is a very difficulty contest for me, I love it (I wouldn't host it otherwise), but it's very hard, for sure harder than the MCC to me. I've been very excited for this since I realized I was on top. I didn't even realize it as it happened! Only a few days later, which now is a few days ago, when I was looking at the cards up for voting and my eyes fell on the scoreboard, I went like: "Wait a minute! Am I winning this?" Well, apparently I am!

[folding_music]

i'm having trouble voting for the four-colour faction cards and feel like I've never understood the appeal of them; i'd love to understand the point! Definitely enjoying bravelion's lore updates but the actual cards are a bit scattershot, especially in charm form where there isn't enough deliberate omission of the fifth colour to feel distinct from rainbow magic. this isn't a challenge to change my mind or whatever (don't post the change my mind guy please x3) I'm just interested in the reasons creators have for attempting FCF designs! thanks for any replies on this

edit: i might just be an annoying fan of more old-school, highly mono-colour and/or artifact-based sets - Ice Age, Mirage, Masques, Tempest, skip a few, Darksteel & Amonkhet among my faves - who never took to alara, khans, capenna, a distinctly basic land-based player in the final analysis

[Rithaniel]

I can't necessarily speak for anyone else, but I always perceived WotC's approach towards certain regions of design as unnecessarily self-limiting. For example, there have been far more shard-colored factions than wedge-colored factions, and the first time they did wedge-colored factions (I don't count Apocalypse), they only really did it for one set before doing two sets of ally-colored factions, with only a few sprinkles of three-color-adjacent cards, like Soulfire Grand Master. But, even beyond things that they don't explore thoroughly enough, there are things that they just don't explore at all. For example, there is no mono-black card with a white-blue-black color identity, and while there isn't a reason that designs in that color space have to exist, the fact that they don't is astonishing, to me. There's just so much that could exist in the game, but which doesn't.

Four-color cards are a perfect example of this. Until recently, four-color cards were avoided as if there were something wrong with making them. Personally, I have never been persuaded by commentary on four-color cards that they are difficult to design, or that they "have to justify missing the color they are missing." As far as I'm concerned, a four-color card doesn't have to justify its existence any more than a two-color card does. The fact that we get four-colored cards so very rarely is uncool on the part of the game designers. This comes down to an idea that "four-colored cards are just cool in general," but that's a subset of the thought "cards with unusual color combinations are cool in general." (I made a cycle of "Dictum" sorceries, that had mana costs like . That's the kind of 'cool' I'm talking about.)

Sometimes I'll design a card with the mechanics in mind first, and then, when I'm trying to pick out a color, I find that the mechanics could be pulled from a total of four colors. So, I ask myself "why not just use all four colors?"

[bravelion83]

Maybe the assumption of every custom card designer having their own four-color faction plane was a bit exaggerating on my part, but I know for sure that I'm not the only one. In my opinion, it's obvious design space: we have sets about literally all other color combinations: two-color ally and enemy multiple times (Ravnica all ten, Dragons of Tarkir ally, Strixhaven enemy), three-color arcs (Shards of Alara and New Capenna) and wedges (Khans of Tarkir and Ikoria), and even a five-color set (Conflux). There is something missing there, and I believe it can be done. Once I was much more reticent to make four-colored cards, but seeing Rithaniel's frequent explorations of that design space convinced me I could also push more in that direction, and I've started doing so. If you go back to look at my card designs from several years ago you will rarely find a four-color card if at all, now I do them from time to time and I have a four-color faction plane in my big table, what I'm presenting you in this days: Kolyfar. I often say that I love the irony in my real name: it literally means "brave lion" (from where my username) but as a person I'm not brave at all. Rithaniel's brave explorations of the color pie are the key factor that also made me willing to be braver, at least in that. The plane of Kolyfar probably wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for them. As for the appeal of four-color design, Rithaniel himself just said what I would have said so I won't repeat it here, just check out the post right above this one.

A LOT of thought went into the Revelry cycle, way more than my usual DCC submissions. As I see it, the crux of four-color design is avoiding the five-color soup problem. In Kolyfar, I've tried to face it by making the factions primary in the center ally two-colored pair, with the external enemy colors being secondary support. I use traditional gold for the center ally pair to force you to play those colors as the core colors of the factions, and hybrid mana of either of those two colors and its other ally to make the faction four-colored while not forcing you to play as much of the secondary colors as it's required of the main center ones. Spree is a perfect mechanic for such a set in my opinion, in fact I've already made a note in my table to potentially bring it back in Kolyfar, because, together with the approach to the colors I've just explained, it allows you to play the card in multiple ways even if you don't have all four colors. In addition to that, I will add disincentives or straight-out prohibitions for you from playing the fifth color, still with the intent of avoiding the five-color soup problem, but that's another matter.

Each of the Revelry cards has this structure (let's call the colors MNOP):
Mana cost: one hybrid mana of the center colors (N/O). I want you to stay in at least one of the center colors but the meat of the card is not here but in the modes.
Spree
+ 2 — An ability that plays into the mechanical theme of the faction and that interacts with all other modes on the card, possibly in different ways depending on which other mode(s) you choose.
+ one hybrid mana of the left secondary colors (M/N) — An ability that the center color N can do but not the other center color O, and that N's other ally M can also do. This ability possibly has high synergy with the generic first mode.
+ two mana in traditional gold in the center colors (NO) — An ability that's worth of three colored mana of the center colors, so often high value as if you only choose this mode the card is essentially two-colored and the total cost in this case will be N{N/O}O like the cycle in Strixhaven, but that also has synergy with all the other modes possibly and also with the mechanical theme of the four-color faction.
+ one hybrid mana of the right secondary colors (O/P) — An ability that the center color O can do but not the other center color N, and that O's other ally P can also do. This ability possibly has high synergy with the generic first mode.

Finding the abilities wasn't easy but I believe I managed it. You'll see the two missing factions tomorrow and in three days, but I already have the cards designed and ready to be posted. But if you don't like this cycle or four-color design in general, no problem! Just don't vote for the card. I've already won last month, and that's more than enough to me for now seeing how difficult of a contest the DCC is to me. This month I've willingly chosen a more experimental route, and it's not like every card I will design from now on will be four-colored! But one thing is true: four-color combinations are no longer to me the taboo they once were, and again, I owe a lot of my change in attitude to Rithaniel.

[archemediesx]

Bog of Unseen Hands
Land (Rare)
Ninjutsu UB
Bog of Unseen Hands enters the battlefield tapped unless you control an Island and a Swamp. When it enters, you may have it become a 3/3 blue and black Ninja creature until end of turn.
T: Add U or B.

So the rules surrounding attacking and state based checks work such that if there is ever a gap where an attacking creature is no longer a creature, even a gap where no player has priority (such as a spell resolving with multiple steps), it is removed from combat. So in this case, even though ninjutsu has it enter attacking, because it's not a creature when it enters the battlefield, it would be removed from combat, even if you choose to have it become a creature afterwards. To have this one work you would need to work the effect along the lines of:

Bog of Unseen Hands
Land (Rare)
Ninjutsu UB
Bog of Unseen Hands enters the battlefield tapped unless you control an Island and a Swamp. If you paid its ninjutsu cost it also enters as a 3/3 blue and black Ninja creature. It becomes a land at end of turn.
T: Add U or B.

The replacement effect here has it enter as a creature in this case with no gap period for it to get turned off as an attacker.

[Sagharri]

Votes: bravelion83, folding_music

Helvault Burial-Site
Land (Rare)
Mirran Helvault Burial-Site enters the battlefield tapped unless you control a Plains and a Swamp.
T: Add W or B.
Disturb WB
/////
The Unhallowed Progeny
(WB) Legendary Creature - Angel Demon Child (Rare)
Flying, lifelink
Whenever you gain life immidiatly after a player loses life, put a +1/+1 on The Unhallowed Progeny.
The opening of the Helvault didn't just opened the best and the worst of humanity, but also a mirror to exhamine humanity itself.
1/1

I guess that @bravelion83 talks about that small mistake.

[bravelion83]

The Mirran are the resistance force on New Phyrexia. Example: Mirran Safehouse

I know. I was just pointing out what was obviously a leftover from a copy/paste, nothing more.

Votes: bravelion83, folding_music

Helvault Burial-Site
Land (Rare)
Mirran Helvault Burial-Site enters the battlefield tapped unless you control a Plains and a Swamp.
T: Add W or B.
Disturb WB
/////
The Unhallowed Progeny
(WB) Legendary Creature - Angel Demon Child (Rare)
Flying, lifelink
Whenever you gain life immidiatly after a player loses life, put a +1/+1 on The Unhallowed Progeny.
The opening of the Helvault didn't just opened the best and the worst of humanity, but also a mirror to exhamine humanity itself.
1/1

I guess that @bravelion83 talks about that small mistake.

Exactly. That bolded one in the front face. I was just pointing that out.

[Rithaniel]

The Ozolith, or what's- his-face, the legendary that keeps counters when he shifts zones

Ukkima, Stalking Shadow and Rapacious Guest kill an opponent of your choice and Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel makes infinite elves.

Let's keep purely-discussion posts in the discussion thread. If you're posting in the thread for a particular day, at least include votes. It makes it easier if I don't have to selectively skip over posts when selecting which ones to quote.

[EsperCormorant]

The Ozolith, or what's- his-face, the legendary that keeps counters when he shifts zones

Ukkima, Stalking Shadow and Rapacious Guest kill an opponent of your choice and Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel makes infinite elves.

Let's keep purely-discussion posts in the discussion thread. If you're posting in the thread for a particular day, at least include votes. It makes it easier if I don't have to selectively skip over posts when selecting which ones to quote.

A fair point, I'll delete my original post in the other thread.

edit: nevermind I can't, apologies in that case

[archemediesx]

I really like the idea of entourage, but after seeing how companion went, I'm a little hesitant about similar mechanics... I liked having an indipendent entourage cost that's higher than the mana cost as a partial fix for companion, but then you can reduce that cost... I'm tempted by this mechanic but not fully sold yet.

You're not wrong. This mechanic would definitely not survive in the wild, but i designed it as an Un-mechanic specifically targeting companion. The playtesting was interesting, it definitely makes games over the long term more consistent as you essentially have 3 extra cards in your hand at the start. In terms of play pattern it's pretty varied though, as you can either try to wield out your entourage on curve (by building around the restrictions), or using them clutch late to break through the late game when you're down to top decking (can save you on those late game land draw turns!).

[Rithaniel]

A fair point, I'll delete my original post in the other thread.

edit: nevermind I can't, apologies in that case

No worries. Though, if you want, you can always edit votes into your post.

[archemediesx]

Votes: archemedesx (I need a full set around this mechanic), Rithaniel

I appreciate I've been able to inspire you. Keep your eyes on the custom set forum. It's coming Soon™.

The set information for "Uninvited" is now live in the custom set creation forum. Enjoy slinging some Libations.

[Sagharri]

Congratulations to @Sagharri for winning the May 2024 DCC with a score of exactly 100 points!

A score of 100 or above is, as we've noted many times before, a sign of a very good month playing in the DCC. That means an average of over 3 votes per day for 31 days. It really is a competition of consistency, and Sagharri has consistently out-performed each player this month. Netn10 and myself tried our best to catch up, and there are times when we managed to nab the top spot for a day, but Sagharri managed to stay 3 to 5 points ahead the entire time. A very good showing, overall.

What a month that was!
Thanks for all votes and greetings to other contestants.

Now only decision to either make a small break or just go with June!

[folding_music]

good work, congratulations <3

I would love to brainstorm a version of this daily idea where voting doesn't take place but I can't think of anything to replace it with x3 looking at the monthly thing, you still vote but in essay form? at least people talk about the cards in that one... guess I find something frustrating about a format where so many cards get made and abandoned that I can't quite describe to complain about coherently x3

[bravelion83]

I really like the idea of entourage, but after seeing how companion went, I'm a little hesitant about similar mechanics... I liked having an indipendent entourage cost that's higher than the mana cost as a partial fix for companion, but then you can reduce that cost... I'm tempted by this mechanic but not fully sold yet.

You're not wrong. This mechanic would definitely not survive in the wild, but i designed it as an Un-mechanic specifically targeting companion. The playtesting was interesting, it definitely makes games over the long term more consistent as you essentially have 3 extra cards in your hand at the start. In terms of play pattern it's pretty varied though, as you can either try to wield out your entourage on curve (by building around the restrictions), or using them clutch late to break through the late game when you're down to top decking (can save you on those late game land draw turns!).

I see, but "having 3 extra cards in your hand at the start" of the game is a big thing and the cost must account for that. And it's not just three more random cards you drew from your deck, it's three very specific cards that you choose beforehand. But if you have playtested it you certainly have more and better feedback than I will ever be able to give. I'm honestly pleasantly surprised you managed to do playtesting at all given my previous experience with the custom sets I've been a part of the design team for: Extinctia, Ormos, and the Viking set we were working on privately with Ryder (it has a name but I'm not sure I or him have ever said it publicly). The first two were killed exactly by the impossibility to have proper real playtesting, and the third one was actually killed by Wizards announcing a real Viking set (Kaldheim) before it got to the stage of playtesting, but even if it did get to that point we weren't sure yet how to do it successfully, so you absolutely have my congratulations if you managed to do it for your set.

Votes: archemedesx (I need a full set around this mechanic), Rithaniel

I appreciate I've been able to inspire you. Keep your eyes on the custom set forum. It's coming Soon™.

The set information for "Uninvited" is now live in the custom set creation forum. Enjoy slinging some Libations.

I will need to check it out, right now I don't have the time but I will in these days. From the mechanics we've seen for the moment in your DCC submissions, I would have never said this was an un-set. Everything I saw would work just fine in the rules: make euphoric a designation a creature can have, Libation tokens can be done in black border, and you have the precedent of companion for entourage. Maybe I'm forgetting some, but I think all of them could be inserted in the CR without any big problems. Maybe it's the way you use them that makes it an un-set? I believe the flavor too could work in black border, I don't think the Cabaretti faction from New Capenna is too far from it for example. I'll take a look at it in the near future and maybe I will understand why it's not just a regular black border set...

[archemediesx]

I will need to check it out, right now I don't have the time but I will in these days. From the mechanics we've seen for the moment in your DCC submissions, I would have never said this was an un-set. Everything I saw would work just fine in the rules: make euphoric a designation a creature can have, Libation tokens can be done in black border, and you have the precedent of companion for entourage. Maybe I'm forgetting some, but I think all of them could be inserted in the CR without any big problems. Maybe it's the way you use them that makes it an un-set? I believe the flavor too could work in black border, I don't think the Cabaretti faction from New Capenna is too far from it for example. I'll take a look at it in the near future and maybe I will understand why it's not just a regular black border set...

It's funny you bring up how the flavor can work in black border as i just read an interesting Op-Ed from Card Kingdom regarding MH3.
https://blog.cardkingdom.com/is-modern- ... -un-jokes/

I draw from a time where the memes and the meta nature of MTG was reserved specifically for the few un-sets that they released. So while yes, I do design primarily mechanics that function within the rules of the game, i feel like building an entire set around college style partying to be pretty deep in un-territory. Wizards has really open the door for the nature of un-sets to seep deeply in their releases now, and there isn't a delineation of what's traditional fantasy and what's meta-fantasy any more. I started design on this after Unfinity was released so I accepted that an Un-set was less about mechanics, (Gotcha, contraptions, stickers, etc) and more about "is the flavor meta-fantasy?" which in this case I would argue 'yes'.

Now after the banning of stickers in Legacy, the grant unification plan of merging Un-sets into the fold of black bordered magic has failed. So I find it ironic that we are seeing such a proliferation of meta-fantasy in the black bordered sets (Muders of Karlov manor and Thunder Junction if you looked at the box art without any context you would be excused for assuming they were joke sets.) I personally enjoy the aesthetic of silver bordered cards as they are evocative that you shouldn't take what the cards do too seriously, and while i design mainly iterative redraws of existing mechanics (Entourage as a companion mechanic to 'companion', Light up the night as a reskin of 'the ring temps you'), I created new context to make the rules we already know put a smile on your face more than anything else. I would feel more guilty about being so un-inspired if this wasn't just the new normal (Think every kicker variant ever, Cloak is just an iteration of morph, etc, etc).

If asked what defined an un-set ten years ago, I would say mechanics that exist outside of functional MTG. If asked what defined an un-set in 2024, I would say meta humor and meta-fantasy settings, and in 2024 its starting to feel like just about all of magic is turning into an un-set.

[bravelion83]

If asked what defined an un-set ten years ago, I would say mechanics that exist outside of functional MTG. If asked what defined an un-set in 2024, I would say meta humor and meta-fantasy settings, and in 2024 its starting to feel like just about all of magic is turning into an un-set.

If you compare Unglued and Unhinged to Unstable and Unfinity, then sure, you're right. You're also right that both MKM and OTJ have more humor and several more pun card names like Holy Cow and Bovine Intervention in OTJ for example, but I feel like that's acceptable in premier sets provided it's just a few cards. Also, I took a look at the article you linked and I would classify none of the cards they bring up as humor, they are intentional variations on the card names of the original card that particular MH3 is referring to. That's not humor in my opinion, just ordinary piggybacking, only in card names instead of just mechanics, and to me that's a different thing.

Also, I know very little about American college life, I went to an Italian university and I essentially ignored everything that was not connected to studying for all the nine years I spent there, like events, concerts, and yes, parties too. I think I might have gone to a couple concerts in those nine years, and only because a friend of mine at the time was playing in the band. Only a single carnival party but that was still in high school. None in university. As Strixhaven should have taught to most people, there is a huge difference between American colleges and European universities, so I don't feel like I'm really qualified to talk about the flavor of American college parties, but again, the Cabaretti are essentially party animals, and they were in a premier set. I think if the Cabaretti were acceptable in black border, a flavor based on college parties would probably be too, at least in my opinion, and especially given how Wizards themselves are more open to humor in regular premier sets as you said yourself and as is evident just by looking at the few latest sets. From what you're saying, your set sounds a lot like Unfinity to me, a high humor set where a bunch of cards are Eternal legal. Yes, the sticker cards have been banned but there are a lot of Eternal cards in Unfinity that are still allowed, all those that have nothing to do with stickers, and notably Attractions are still Eternal legal. Could your set do the same thing as Unfinity, be half un-cards and half regular cards? It sounds like it could, but obviously it's your set so that's your decision to make, not mine. I just thought I would throw up the idea and maybe give you some food for thought, nothing more.

I still have to check out your set, but I will as soon as I have enough time.

[Komandon]

What is the timezone for the cut off time for the daily challenge?

[bravelion83]

What is the timezone for the cut off time for the daily challenge?

It depends on the host. On June that's me, and I'm in Central European Time. I post the daily thread around midnight CET. In other months, the thread is usually posted at midnight US Eastern instead.

[bravelion83]

Cairnfield Skullossus 8b
Creature - Skeleton Horror
Menace, Trample
As an additional cost to cast - you may exile any number of creature cards from your graveyard. Each card exiled this way reduces -'s cost by 1. Each skeleton exiled this way reduces ~'s cost an additional 1.
7/6

I have no idea if this is rules compliant.

More than the rules, the problem here is the missing rarity. I believe the rules have no problems with this, as part of the process of casting a spell you announce your intention to pay the additional cost and how many and which cards you're going to exile, then, much later in the process, you determine the total cost of the spell and you apply the cost reductions depending on the choices you've announced in the previous step. And only after that you actually pay the cost, physically putting the chosen cards in the exile zone and paying the proper amount of mana. I've got no time to take direct quotes from the CR now, but if you check out the section about casting a spell you can easily find them there. It would need to be reworded though, but not because it doesn't work, just because this is non-standard templating. I would word it the cost reduction ability like this:

As an additional cost to cast CARDNAME, you may exile any number of creature cards from your graveyard. CARDNAME costs 1 less to cast for each card exiled this way. CARDNAME costs an additional 1 less to cast for each Skeleton card exiled this way.

[OneAndOnly]

I think someone voted for me this round, even though I didn't submit a card for the previous round. (Or one set of votes further back.)

[bravelion83]

I think someone voted for me this round, even though I didn't submit a card for the previous round. (Or one set of votes further back.)

I'm going to check right now, it might aalso be some error on my part. I'll let you know asap.

EDIT - Found it. No, it's not an error on my part. It's in yesterday's thread (June 7th), you had no cards up for voting yet netn10 somehow voted for you. That vote is clearly invalid. Now I'm going to investigate what consequence that fact has. More to follow.

EDIT 2 - Ok, I reread the contest rules and I believe I've found the relevant case. netn10 voted for you and Rithaniel in the linked post above, but the vote for you is not valid, so it's like it wasn't there at all. Essentially netn10 voted for just one person (Rithaniel), which implies probation (underlining the relevant parts):

Voting for only one person, for three or more people, or for yourself will earn you an asterisk by your name in the monthly leaderboard. So will failing to vote if you've posted a card. (We're not going to do anything about people who don't vote or post cards; that would be kind of silly.) This indicates that you're on probation for the next 21 days. If you're on probation and you make another improper vote, your card will be disqualified. Repeated disqualification is grounds for warnings and/or infractions for not following the game rules, so please don't do it.

This means netn10 is in probation, and given that the infraction was committed yesterday, the probation should have started in today's thread. I'm going to edit it in right now, and also fix the scores. In tomorrow's thread, which I'm going to post in about one hour from this edit (11:05 pm CET), netn10's probation will be at 20 days remaining as the first day of probation is today.

Thank you for bringing this up, OneAndOnly. This also makes you honor because it goes against your own interest and your own score in the standings. This is good sportsmanship. Thanks again.

[bravelion83]

Lonely Vista
Land (U)
Lonely Vista enters tapped unless you control exactly one creature.
T: Add C.
T, Sacrifice Lonely Vista: Search your library for up to two basic land cards. Put one of them into your hand and the other onto the battlefield tapped.
"And there I was. Alone. I still had that image of a different unknown landscape stuck in his mind. What could it be? I know all of Theros, yet I had never seen that place before."
—Jeff Lionheart

HM: bravelion83 - The land is too efficient, but I like the idea. (Also, you have to reveal the one that goes into your hand.)

D'OH! The reveal one especially is a big one! How about this second version?

Lonely Vista
Land (U)
Lonely Vista enters tapped unless you control exactly one creature.
T: Add C.
1, T, Sacrifice Lonely Vista: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one into your hand and the other onto the battlefield tapped.
"And there I was. Alone. I still had that image of a different unknown landscape stuck in his mind. What could it be? I know all of Theros, yet I had never seen that place before."
—Jeff Lionheart

[Rithaniel]

D'OH! The reveal one especially is a big one! How about this second version?

Lonely Vista
Land (U)
Lonely Vista enters tapped unless you control exactly one creature.
T: Add C.
1, T, Sacrifice Lonely Vista: Search your library for up to two basic land cards and reveal them. Put one into your hand and the other onto the battlefield tapped.
"And there I was. Alone. I still had that image of a different unknown landscape stuck in his mind. What could it be? I know all of Theros, yet I had never seen that place before."
—Jeff Lionheart

That one I can see, but here's a quick critique:

The ETB clause makes it feel a little busy, because it doesn't have clear mechanical unity with the fetchland behavior. I can see where it's coming from, flavor-wise, though.

Comparing to Bant Panorama and Cultivate (Also, you and I both missed the shuffle clause), I still think it might be a little bit strong. The ETB part makes it a little more complicated to evaluate, but, in the early game, where this fetch mechanic would really shine, it's relatively easy to ensure that you have a single creature.

That being said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a fetchland that is a bit strong. I think, if it were me, I'd just have this version enter untapped and be a strong card.