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Falkenbach
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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
Apprentice Necromancer [/card] maybe this would be a good 2 drop if your deck is build arround it?
Its Instant speed reanimation and works well with:
- Mikaeus → BW protection.
- Prized Alamgam (if you gonna include it)
- Repository Skaab
-sidisi Undead Vizier
-Balthor +3 mana reanimation
-Gray merchant
-Grimgrin if you have another creature to sac on him (as he gets haste)
-fleshbag marauder
- Headless Rider (if you gonna run him)

(I also run Rot hulk in my deck which works great with the necromancer,)
I had forgotten necro was a zombie for some reason :) I am pretty sure that belongs. One problem with it is that I don't have very many payoff zombies but it's certainly decent.

I would love to pick up a Rot Hulk at some point. I almost never do tribal decks so neglected to pick one up until it was too late :P
I don't think your build really misses him, as your build is really focused on the 1 and 2 drops?

Aren't Cosmic Intervention and Faith's Reward a bit clunky because I think you will want to have atleast 2 fetches on the board (which means one will need to be there from the previous turn) to make them worth as ramp spells? or how do you use them? (I am really sick of signets and talismans myself so searching other ways of ramp or land drops ;) also the reason why I got inspiration from you to run Crucible of Worlds )

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think your build really misses him, as your build is really focused on the 1 and 2 drops?

Aren't Cosmic Intervention and Faith's Reward a bit clunky because I think you will want to have atleast 2 fetches on the board (which means one will need to be there from the previous turn) to make them worth as ramp spells? or how do you use them? (I am really sick of signets and talismans myself so searching other ways of ramp or land drops also the reason why I got inspiration from you to run Crucible of Worlds )
I wouldn't mind playing Rot Hulk over something else expensive since it's also a zombie, I think I could absorb one 7 drop. Dunno tho.

Cosmic and faith's have not been used that much so far; mostly discarding them to varina. Cosmic Intervention is an interesting one in that it beats graveyard hate and so it's there as kind of a way to do the aristocrats drain through a Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace as much as it is to ramp.

Their main purpose is to create a cheap semi-infinite loop with Repository Skaab (formerly Archaeomancer). Phyrexian Altar plus any of those spells plus some zombies is a win condition. And as anti-sweeper rattlesnake cards.

In Ephara, I have used intervention as ramp quite a bit; Cosmic Intervention. It's a lot better than reward at that because you get two fetchland activations so even sandbagging one fetch is enough to get +2 ramp, and I have enough instant speed stuff to use the mana. I haven't gotten to use it in this set yet.

This deck's main ramp strategy is to tutor for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Cabal Coffers and then leverage that, the fetchland recycling stuff is lower on the gameplan and just a fringe benefit of using those spells as loops.

--

wanted to add that Cosmic Intervention is absolutely bananas in this deck if you can get up a sac outlet and a drainer, since you can basically double up your triggers. You sac all your guys draining, then when they come back at end of turn you sac them again and they come back the next endstep. This only really works with Wayward Servant and Corpse Knight unfortunately but it is pretty easy to find one of those...or Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

I have set that up a couple times but didn't find Archaeomancer in time and just won the old fashioned way.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Zombie that comes back from the graveyard... (you were talking about this is another thread).

Scourge of Nel Toth

Gotta sac creatures, and so loops are difficult, but I thought I would throw it out there as I hadn't seen it suggested yet.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Zombie that comes back from the graveyard... (you were talking about this is another thread).

Scourge of Nel Toth

Gotta sac creatures, and so loops are difficult, but I thought I would throw it out there as I hadn't seen it suggested yet.
Hmm, BB is a really good rate for that and varina makes dorks :) I might have to try this out. That's a big fat butt.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Ok. Cool. Glad it wasn't a total bust.

I've got a 1 drop 'evasive' zombie for your too.

Foulmire knight

Also, pretty sure I didn't see Pact of the Serpent. I feel like it is cheap enough to help you hit land drops and has a way higher ceiling than the blue cantrips you are playing.

Also, while unable to make piles like Intuition, have you considered the zombies that tutor to the graveyard? I'm not sure if they would be any use to you but there is Corpse Connoisseur. It is probably too much at 5 mana and inflexible, even with the unearth cost. What about Vile Entomber?
Last edited by Arebennian 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Ok. Cool. Glad it wasn't a total bust.

I've got a 1 drop 'evasive' zombie for your too.

Foulmire knight

Also, pretty sure I didn't see Pact of the Serpent. I feel like it is cheap enough to help you hit land drops and has a way higher ceiling than the blue cantrips you are playing.
I have a foulmire sitting in the maybe bin, it seems like it might be potentially really good. Gotta think about that.

Pact of the Serpent does a lot of different things than Ponder or Epiphany at the Drownyard. The problem with those board state dependent cards is that they are only really good when you're ahead and they require some setup. Ponder lets you keep a 2 land land with confidence, Epiphany lets you come back from way behind. Very different effects.

I'm not 100% on the cantrips but so far they have been pretty good and not costing a lot of mana or life is nice :)

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Edited the above regarding the entomb effects.

Thanks for the understanding on the Pact vs Cantrip.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
I'm not sure if they would be any use to you but there is Corpse Connoisseur. It is probably too much at 5 mana and inflexible, even with the unearth cost. What about Vile Entomber?
Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Edited the above regarding the entomb effects.
I think I'd probably play Buried Alive and Entomb first even though they are on bodies. Vile Entomber is kinda nice since it can get Sevinne's Reclamation and is evasive. Still, can't really underestimate how good putting Gravecrawler in the bin is either I guess.

My inclination is to say those effects are just a little overcosted but I do have an entomber ready to go, it's certainly defensible.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Excellent. Thanks for your thoughts on Vile Entomber.

Ok. This has been milling over in my brain for the last few hours... Foulmire Knight finally triggered it for me

I've got your reanimating zombie. Infact, I've got a whole host of them (well, let's see what you think...)

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

And all the other Zombie knight cards:
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&ord ... Azombie%29

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Excellent. Thanks for your thoughts on Vile Entomber.

Ok. This has been milling over in my brain for the last few hours... Foulmire Knight finally triggered it for me

I've got your reanimating zombie. Infact, I've got a whole host of them (well, let's see what you think...)

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

And all the other Zombie knight cards:
https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&ord ... Azombie%29
Huh, my first thought was to meh it, but...Haakon, Stromgald Scourge really does strongly synergize with Varina. She can discard him almost at will and he only costs 1BB to reanimate and comes with some serious upside being able to reanimate Corpse Knight (although my only other current one is Murderous Rider // Swift End.)

Might be worth it. I put him on my maybe list...I have a discard outlet or two as well :)

This seems like a really fun subtheme to explore...playable zombie knights in my build:
The loop of Liliana's Standard Bearer could be pretty near game ending too if you had a big turn where you just recast it a bunch of times. sac all your dudes except haakon, flash standard bearer draw a billion cards, sac it, cast it again, etc, etc.

huh. definitely a think on. Man, that is a naaaasty Buried Alive / Intuition pile too.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Cool. Glad the idea has some merit and traction. I've been trying to fit Haakon into a jank knight-equipment build for years, but he just didn't fit once all the discard and other synergies were fit in. Perhaps if I build Varina I can scratch the itch here instead and streamline that deck.

Have you ever considered Mausoleum Secrets as a reasonable, but limited, tutor in this deck? On reflection, it really is just a budget include when Vampiric Tutor is an option.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Have you ever considered Mausoleum Secrets as a reasonable, but limited, tutor in this deck? On reflection, it really is just a budget include when Vampiric Tutor is an option.
It's not bad. If it could get lands I would windmill slam it but only black cards makes it not do what I need.

I have cast Demonic Tutor for Polluted Delta at least once :P

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Sequencing and You

Varina is a unique 4-drop commander. Your typical 4 cmc commander will always want to come out on turn 3 if possible and start drawing you cards or doing whatever its effect is. Varina is special because she doesn't start doing whatever she's doing until she has a number of zombies to draw cards. By herself, attacking and loot 1/gain 1 is pretty unexciting. Loot 2/gain 2 is 1000% better.

Varina has a ton in common with Winota, Joiner of Forces. Winota requires non-humans to be out to trigger her very powerful ability. Ramping her out early is almost actively bad because she's exposed to being removed at sorcery speed without having provided any benefit. Varina is the same; if you ramp her out on turn 3 and she dies before you untap, you get nothing *and* she's now 2 mana more expensive.

The important thing about both of these commanders is that because they are dependent on the combat step, creatures played after them are both exposed to sorcery speed removal before they can provide value and are delayed an entire turn from value.

That is the thesis of this deck; much like with Winota, zombies played before Varina, Lich Queen are significantly better than zombies played after her; a 3-drop zombie played on turn 3 will trigger Varina on turns 4, 5, 6, and 7 for a total of 4 triggers. A 3-drop zombie played after Varina on turn 5 will trigger her on turns 6 and 7.

Varina has some tension with colored pips that Winota doesn't, needing 3 instead of 2, making Mana Crypt effects worse. But most of the ideas still apply.

Sequences

Let's look at sequences if you ramp on turn 2 as many EDH decks are conditioned to do. We'll naively assume no interaction.

If you have a great hand with a 1 cmc zombie, Orzhov Signet, and enough lands to hit Varina, Lich Queen and a mix of 2 and 3 cmc zombies to allow playing 2 immediately after Varina, your sequence looks like this.

Turn 1: Zombie
Turn 2: Signet
Turn 3: Varina, +1 trigger
Turn 4: Play a 2 and 3 cmc zombie, +2 triggers
Turn 5: +4 triggers

So on turn 5 (the typical point at which interaction starts to become inevitable, we've generated 7 triggers, with Varina exposed to sorcery speed (usually sweepers) removal starting on turn 3.

Now, let's look at a sequence from a deck that is designed to curve out.

Turn 1: Zombie
Turn 2: Zombie
Turn 3: Zombie
Turn 4: Varina, +3 triggers
Turn 5: +4 triggers

We've got the same number of triggers, and Varina wasn't exposed to a turn 3 sweeper, and we played one fewer card out of our hand (3 zombies + signet vs. 3 zombies).

Both of these sequences are fairly optimal and don't often happen exactly like that.

But the point to look out for is that putting Varina out early doesn't really accelerate your gameplan all that much at the cost of exposing her to a sweeper and having to have one of your cards not be a zombie.

And both of these sequences absolutely pale in comparison to the Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond lines.

Optimal Manabase

I think the optimal manabase is basically the same as Winota, but with adding black cards of Dark Ritual and possibly Culling the Weak.

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are significantly worse with Varina than with Winota, but they help us power out endgame turns enough that I think they still belong.

Probably the strongest argument for playing Arcane Signet and Azorius Signet is the powerhouse plays you get from a turn 1 signet off of Ring/Crypt/Ancient Tomb. The problem with that is that signets are not zombies. You have to deal with the bad signet hands, and then you have to deal with explosive hands where you play all your mana rocks and then draw air.

Varina is pretty iffy if you don't play at least one zombie before her, and you wind up having to play an awful lot of air in your deck to support (1) 10 mana rocks, (2) card draw and cantrips to fix your mana rocks hands, (3) 35 lands to support the powerful endgame lands that Varina wants (Unholy Grotto, etc.).

non-land mana sources I'd recommend where your deck is 'highest power but still trying to use Varina' (as opposed to just playing esper control CEDH):
I'd also play this set of lands:
and maaaaybe Ancient Tomb (need to look at your zombie profile and see how many 2B and 2U zombies you have, mainly).

My deck is actively powered down to play nice in my meta, so the ramp/fixing package is smaller.

As you power down you have to look systematically at the mana and see what you can support; cutting fetchlands makes some things worse (e.g. harder to reliably cast Tithe for 2 lands, and also harder to cast t1 black blue and white spells). Cutting coffers/urborg/nykthos most likely means map is not good. Not having enough cheap zombies means Culling Ritual is kinda iffy. etc. etc.
Last edited by pokken 2 weeks ago, edited 1 time in total.

Arebennian
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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago
Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
I'm not sure if they would be any use to you but there is Corpse Connoisseur. It is probably too much at 5 mana and inflexible, even with the unearth cost. What about Vile Entomber?
Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Edited the above regarding the entomb effects.
I think I'd probably play Buried Alive and Entomb first even though they are on bodies. Vile Entomber is kinda nice since it can get Sevinne's Reclamation and is evasive. Still, can't really underestimate how good putting Gravecrawler in the bin is either I guess.

My inclination is to say those effects are just a little overcosted but I do have an entomber ready to go, it's certainly defensible.
Just reading back over the thread, and noticed the wording on the sentence regarding Vile Entomber and Sevinne's Reclamation.

Entomb can get any card. From the above sentence, perhaps you were not aware? You might have just been referencing Entomber vs Connoisseur and the advantage, but I thought if you had overlooked the 'any card' aspect of Entomb, then you would definitely want to be informed / reminded.

I'm expecting that you know, but I thought I'd 2x check.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Just reading back over the thread, and noticed the wording on the sentence regarding Vile Entomber and Sevinne's Reclamation.

Entomb can get any card. From the above sentence, perhaps you were not aware? You might have just been referencing Entomber vs Connoisseur and the advantage, but I thought if you had overlooked the 'any card' aspect of Entomb, then you would definitely want to be informed / reminded.

I'm expecting that you know, but I thought I'd 2x check.
yeah, I worded kinda sloppily but the point I was trying to make is that Vile Entomber has some advantages over Buried Alive because it can get anything. too much shortcut :)

Honestly I probably should be playing Entomb just was trying to keep the tutor volume a little lower. Gonna wait and see if I need to get that aggro but Gravecrawler just puts in so much work

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Made some pretty hard series' of cuts to get the curve down significantly (2.54) and hacked basically the entire top end off the deck. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed combo is gone for Ashnod's Altar + Zombie Infestation.

The hardest cut of all was Vengeful Dead but I think it just doesn't do quite enough at 4 mana - the 2 mana versions of this effect just have to be enough, because I never want to pay 4 for it it's only a reanimate target.

I also added a Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package which is another way to go infinite or functionally infinite with Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer (you can, for example with Ashnod's Altar for example, cast Standard bearer equal to the number of B you have. The Intuition potential of Haakon is pretty lit, generally forcing them to give you haakon which you immediately chuck to Varina and then go off with.

Overall moving in the direction of less powerful but more efficient combos with things that are cheaper and add to my gameplan.

Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Noxious Ghoul are still on the chopping block, but I don't have anything I am loving to put in those slots right this minute. :)

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Cool to see the Haakon package made it in. Will be interesting to see how it plays out after some real playtesting (I'm assuming that you haven't got it out it the wild much / at all yet?).
I would have thought with Haakon package included, Buried Alive looks a lot better. Although that would require 7 mana to get Foulmire into play (3+3+1) at sorcery speed.

I see you cut Rooftop Storm, I would have thought that adding in Foulmire as an additional Gravecrawler would have made it worthwhile?

Would you mind talking me through the Zombie Infestation lines? I take it there isn't direct synergy with Ashnod's Altar, they are just two additions?

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
Cool to see the Haakon package made it in. Will be interesting to see how it plays out after some real playtesting (I'm assuming that you haven't got it out it the wild much / at all yet?).
I would have thought with Haakon package included, Buried Alive looks a lot better. Although that would require 7 mana to get Foulmire into play (3+3+1) at sorcery speed.

I see you cut Rooftop Storm, I would have thought that adding in Foulmire as an additional Gravecrawler would have made it worthwhile?

Would you mind talking me through the Zombie Infestation lines? I take it there isn't direct synergy with Ashnod's Altar, they are just two additions?
Haven't tried the haakon package, trying it today.

Rooftop Storm just costs too much mana to deploy - possibly comes back in if I add Academy Rector which I'm still thinking about.

The Zombie Infestation are actually Skullclamp lines really;

Lazotep Chancellor + Skullclamp + Putrid Imp + Ashnod's Altar makes infinite card draw
--> discard a card, pay 1, make a zombie, pay 1 to equip, sacrifice for 2 mana, repeat (you discard 1 for a creature, draw 2 from skullclamp, net 0 mana from 1 to pay and 1 to equip)

Zombie Infestation + Skullclamp + Ashnod's Altar makes infinite mill and colorless mana
-discard 2 cards to make 1 zombie, pay 1 to equip, sacrifice to draw 2 cards and make 2 mana → net 1 mana, mill 2 each activation.
-You also get to sculpt a perfect hand of course.

Both of those combos are a bit womboey, since they don't actually win until you deploy a draining creature or a mass reanimation spell. But both of those things should be pretty easy to do in a mana efficient or even mana neutral fashion.

--

Generally speaking Ashnod's Altar is strongly synergistic with any free or cheap repeated way to make zombies (even including Varina, Lich Queen ability, making it "free")

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Games were really awkward tonight; one game I got combo'd out on by a Mimeoplasm deck that was tuned a bit higher than Varina, and made me wish I had more counterspells. Not really a lot I can do to a Mime with 40 counters and Walking Ballista.

The other game (just recalled) was against Kadena; I attempted to Living Death a second time to win an he had countermagic and I didn't. Not much I could do - he had a Mana Crypt into Fellwar Stone start, so turn 2 Kadena and I still almost pulled it out so it felt fine.

Overall the deck is still flowing well just need to adjust for the tune level in my meta - people are going a bit harder :)

Probably I will try to squeeze in a few more counterspells including Fierce Guardianship.

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

pokken wrote:
2 years ago

I also added a Haakon, Stromgald Scourge package which is another way to go infinite or functionally infinite with Foulmire Knight // Profane Insight and Liliana's Standard Bearer (you can, for example with Ashnod's Altar for example, cast Standard bearer equal to the number of B you have. The Intuition potential of Haakon is pretty lit, generally forcing them to give you haakon which you immediately chuck to Varina and then go off with.
If you are not running Intuition or phyrexian Altar then Haakon is not really worth including I assume? But i really would wanna hear your or Arbennian 's experience with him.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
If you are not running Intuition or phyrexian Altar then Haakon is not really worth including I assume? But i really would wanna hear your or Arbennian 's experience with him.
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Well, I guess it kinda depends? He's a free card for Varina to chuck and then you can cast him from the bin. But generally I think yeah he's at his best as part of a Intuition package. I don't really have enough knights for him to be randomly great.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

I've got zero experience with it.

I'm just interested in building the deck (Varina, or a human aristocrat tribal I have been contemplating) and have been keeping up to date with both Pokken's thread and the main Varina thread. I had noticed Pokken was looking for a second recursive zombie and Haakon (and Co.) was my suggestion. I've loved the card since the days of Solar Flare in original Ravnica standard and Hakkon is (and probably shouldn't be) in a jank knight tribal equipment list I run. I was playing said knight deck and suddenly twigged that there were a few cheap zombie knights which fit the bill for Pokken's need.

So, in a way, Pokken is both your and my lab rat.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

So far I have been happy to see haakon every time. One game he was a free draw off varina and would have won the game had mimeoplasm not just combod us out (had Foulmire plus altar ready to go). Another game was sadly the same except I set up with standard bearer and haakon then died to mime combo.

If I'm gonna keep playing with that dude I need some more countermagic. :P near cedh level combo decks are just too fast for varina.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

A brief treatise on Skullclamp

If you play Ashnod's Altar you should probably play Skullclamp. This combo with Varina of 1,Exile 2 from the bin: draw 2 cards is really great.

Had this come up in another game where a The Mimeoplasm player had put out a Mesmeric Orb and had he not been on a generate combo deck (Hermit Druid *SHAKES FIST* I even asked him if it was a combo and he lied so I didn't kill it:P) would have easily carried that game by drawing most of my deck.

And that's the failure state.

Both altars really are pretty strong synergy, but every sac outlet is as well.

No surprise that clamp is a good card, but it has been utterly dominant for me in this shell with all the outlets. More sac outlets the better :)

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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

How come you are not running Midnight reaper ? Zombie knight that draws

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