Thalia and The Gitrog Monster

[Mookie]

Titania, Voice of Gaea (+Argoth, Sanctum of Nature), Tireless Provisioner, and Courser of Kruphix all seem like reasonable choices if you're looking for more lifegain. Zuran Orb also seems generally preferable to Overgrown Estate.

With this many lands, I'd also be tempted to run Explore over one of the other two mana ramp options (probably Rampant Growth).

Craterhoof Behemoth seems a bit ambitious with only 14 creatures in the deck. Field of the Dead and other token production certainly helps, but still a bit concerning.

[EonAon]

Im honestly wondering why nobody has suggested Summer Bloom.

Rampaging Baloths plus crater would give more oomph overall I expect and would be a decent setup creature in general.

[pokken]

Im honestly wondering why nobody has suggested Summer Bloom.

Rampaging Baloths plus crater would give more oomph overall I expect and would be a decent setup creature in general.

I don't think I like the play patterns with Summer Bloom - if you're curving it out it's not going to provide continual value like Exploration since you don't rate to have a crucible effect yet, and it will put you at 5 lands played on turn 2 without giving you a turn 2 commander, thus consuming all your land drops unless you draw one on turn 3.

t1 exploration/burgeoning results in a t2 commander and leaves you a land to play for the commander if you have 5 total by turn 2, but t2 summer bloom wants you to have 7 lands by turn 3 (3 turns + 3 summer bloom + 1 commander).

On the flipside, bloom can be super good late game with a crucible effect--blammo the board gets +6/+6 from Felidar Retreat, so it might be worth thinking about.

But I think the early game play pattern issues make it *probably* worse than most of the 2 cmc ramp options.

[NoirCroix]

You've asked numerous times what we are spending all of our mana on as well as card advantage options, I think Peer into the Abyss is the answer to both.

Edit: As I see it, Peer, gives us a massive amount of card draw in the early/mid game. It refills your land with lands, which you can dump a bunch both onto the field and into the yard at end of turn. The life loss seems steep, but scales better compared to Ad Naus or Necro, especially if we are at a lower life total. On rare occasions it can also be used to cut an opponents life total down into range for us to knock them out. Just some food for thought.

[Gorillajay]

I know we're still not 100% done brewing, but can we talk a little about lines of play, sample hands we want to keep or Mull, tutor targets, etc?

Maybe discussing these a bit will help us shore up some of the last few slots we're on the fence about. Anything useful that comes as a result can potentially get added to the psuedo primer @TheGildedGoose started the thread with. I'll get us started.


Tutors & Mulligans:
Obviously Ideal keeps and what we want to try and mulligan for is a TATGM on turn three given the deck is built around that expectation. Slowing down the opponent and propelling ourselves on turn 3 seems fantastic, if we get flooded we can start sacking lands to convert them into cards. So, is it worth it to burn a tutor to get this? I think so.... as long as you have the extra lands to drop and/or sac Green Sun's Zenith or Finale of Devastation into Dryad Arbor or is a no brainer but what if we're missing that ramp spell, should we consider burning something more powerful and less ideal like Vampiric tutor? I certainly wouldn't do this if I didn't have enough lands to drop after playing TATGM otherwise it was kind of a waste. If we feel we could get TATGM out on turn three, then maybe it could be worth it?

Other Tutor Usage:
Given our heavy use of tutors we should discuss what are our best targets and when?

Early/Mid game - probably one of our Draw engines in Bolas's Citadel or Necropotence if we're in a position to take a proactive approach to the game state. If we have one of those already it might be better to get something like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Crucible of Worlds (Depending on what else we have). So we can really begin to pull ahead.

If others developed pretty quick (despite TATGM's slowing them down), we may need to find a board wipe. This can hopefully reset the game and allow us to grind card advantage and land drops a bit more before we can turn the corner to take the game.

Late Game - This will depend on if we've find our Token engine of field of the dead or Scute Swarm yet OR if we've already got those then we can just go and grab our finisher in Craterhoof Behemoth.

Very synergistic engines we want to try to assemble:

• Probably the bread and butter of this deck. Lands from the Graveyard (Crucible of Worlds, Conduit of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator) + Multiple Land Drops (Thalia and The Gitrog Monster, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Exploration,) = Tons of Landfall triggers for Field of the Dead or Felidar Retreat, our fetch lands all x2 the triggers. If we can, we can try to further multiply those triggers with something like Ancient Greenwarden or multiple copies of Field of the Dead. This is essentially how we will build our army over the course of 1 maybe 2 turns. This is a resilient way to build an army as Lands like FOTD are harder to deal with then your normal creature, and even if they get a wipe you can just start playing more lands. Our Sac lands also do great work here, self sacrificing to be replayed and drawing us cards for a neat little mini card advantage engine.
• Bolas's Citadel + Sensei's Divining Top = Huge card advantage and digging through the deck. Combine this with Overgrown Estate and we might be able to just play half our deck in a single turn.
• Seasons Past + Demonic Tutor = Huge inevitable card advantage. I know Season's past is on the chopping block, but I love this card and this engine is such value. Once you've established this loop with mana left over to use and reuse your removal, board wipes, ramp spells. It will be met with utter fatigue and feeling of hopelessness for your opponents, as now you'll just have an answer everything they do outside of something like a storm combo.

These may be obvious to some but i wanted to write these out for my own personal reference when play testing in the future. Also once again, since we're playing so many tutors it may be helpful to know what other cards you should seek with them given what pieces you may already have in hand or on the board.

[NoirCroix]

Another quick question. How do we feel about Land Tax? I know it's not trying advantage, but being able to consistently make our multiple land drops seems pretty good in this build.

[pokken]

Another quick question. How do we feel about Land Tax? I know it's not trying advantage, but being able to consistently make our multiple land drops seems pretty good in this build.

I don't think it's that likely you are ever going to be enough behind on lands for it to be that great -- turn 1 on the draw I guess?

Tithe I could see the argument for, esp. if we were to try to play Mistveil Plains for some reason. tithe is nice cos you can sequence it with fetchlands to get guaranteed 2

[NoirCroix]

You're completely right, I was misremembering the card.

[duducrash]

I did some proxy testing today and while it performed well I felt I was playing the same game over and over again

[pokken]

I did some proxy testing today and while it performed well I felt I was playing the same game over and over again

I mean... welcome to the archetype lol

[EonAon]

I think thats why I'm probably not going to make this IRL. I have most of what I need to make this but the over and over play is probably not going to be fun especially the level of play I see locally. Not that some folks dont have busted decks but this is more cEdh level if you spend on it. That and there are a few big money needs for this deck I really dont/cant want to spend or trade for.

Theory crafting it and helping somebody else do it is fun though.

[Gorillajay]

`

I did some proxy testing today and while it performed well I felt I was playing the same game over and over again

For me that's what I'm actually hoping this deck. I want that consistent, go to, grindy, value Junk deck. Particularly I think decks like this rewards smart plays and good threat assessment. The "difference" between games comes in how you interact with your opponents to get to make your way to your inevitable win con. I have other decks that are more varied in how they win, or just how they play even. For this, I want it to be tried and true and I want to know what I'm going to get when I pull it out.

I think thats why I'm probably not going to make this IRL. I have most of what I need to make this but the over and over play is probably not going to be fun especially the level of play I see locally. Not that some folks dont have busted decks but this is more cEdh level if you spend on it. That and there are a few big money needs for this deck I really dont/cant want to spend or trade for.

Yes, this deck can be considered stronger, it's high usage of tutors combined with the best removal and very strong card draw is bound to be strong. But that was by design. The commander of Thalia and The Gitrog Monster empowers a strategy that Junk has long time held as a core to it's color identity (in other formats). I believe a lot of players (such as myself) were looking for a commander such as this to latch onto since most Abzan commanders are centered around a counters, aristocrats or reanimator strategies that often lead to combo win con line of play. The closest commander I would put to Thalia that could be at the helm of a deck such as this would probably be Karador, Ghost Chieftain which was printed a very long time ago, and incentivizes you to play creatures more then anything else.


I certainly wouldn't put this into a CEDH Tier by any means. it doesn't have any fast mana or combo win cons.

[Mookie]

I believe a lot of players (such as myself) were looking for a commander such as this to latch onto since most Abzan commanders are centered around a counters, aristocrats or reanimator strategies that often lead to combo win con line of play. The closest commander I would put to Thalia that could be at the helm of a deck such as this would probably be Karador, Ghost Chieftain which was printed a very long time ago, and incentivizes you to play creatures more then anything else.

On that topic, I've been brainstorming a Tayam, Luminous Enigma landfall deck for a while. That deck would be somewhat similar to this list, but running every landfall: get a counter / landfall: make a token card to turn lands into counters and vice versa with Tayam. T&GM is probably more consistent, but only drawing one card per turn gives them a lower ceiling, so pretty comparable overall.

[pokken]

T&GM is probably more consistent, but only drawing one card per turn gives them a lower ceiling, so pretty comparable overall.

T&GM having first strike and deathtouch is the unique thing they provide, I am not going to even be swinging for the card most of the time myself. Plenty of ways to draw tons of cards. Ghostly prison in the CZ is where it's at.

It's really important to remember that Crucible of Worlds + any land that sacs itself is functionally drawing X cards per turn where X is the # of land drops you have. Not *exactly* but close enough.

There's a ton of pseudo card advantage in Field of the Dead type effects too; you don't have to cast all your dudes, just pressure by playing lands.

Tayam is definitely cool but it's a different game; Tayam is a crucible and Froggirl is an Exploration, so the decks are vastly different.

[duducrash]

The "difference" between games comes in how you interact with your opponents to get to make your way to your inevitable win con.

I think thats my issue it was really not super interaction heavy and there were suprisely few decision to be made. at least fewer than I expect. I have a karador deck and was expecting more of the grindfest every decision matters and resources are a part of the game stuff.

It's not bad, just different I guess

[TheGildedGoose]

You've asked numerous times what we are spending all of our mana on as well as card advantage options, I think Peer into the Abyss is the answer to both.

Edit: As I see it, Peer, gives us a massive amount of card draw in the early/mid game. It refills your land with lands, which you can dump a bunch both onto the field and into the yard at end of turn. The life loss seems steep, but scales better compared to Ad Naus or Necro, especially if we are at a lower life total. On rare occasions it can also be used to cut an opponents life total down into range for us to knock them out. Just some food for thought.

You're right. I'm fond of the card and it popped into my head after Necro and Nauseam. It's likely much stronger than Seasons Past. Rest in power, king.

I know we're still not 100% done brewing, but can we talk a little about lines of play, sample hands we want to keep or Mull, tutor targets, etc?

Maybe discussing these a bit will help us shore up some of the last few slots we're on the fence about. Anything useful that comes as a result can potentially get added to the psuedo primer @TheGildedGoose started the thread with. I'll get us started.


Tutors & Mulligans:
Obviously Ideal keeps and what we want to try and mulligan for is a TATGM on turn three given the deck is built around that expectation. Slowing down the opponent and propelling ourselves on turn 3 seems fantastic, if we get flooded we can start sacking lands to convert them into cards. So, is it worth it to burn a tutor to get this? I think so.... as long as you have the extra lands to drop and/or sac Green Sun's Zenith or Finale of Devastation into Dryad Arbor or is a no brainer but what if we're missing that ramp spell, should we consider burning something more powerful and less ideal like Vampiric tutor? I certainly wouldn't do this if I didn't have enough lands to drop after playing TATGM otherwise it was kind of a waste. If we feel we could get TATGM out on turn three, then maybe it could be worth it?

Other Tutor Usage:
Given our heavy use of tutors we should discuss what are our best targets and when?

Early/Mid game - probably one of our Draw engines in Bolas's Citadel or Necropotence if we're in a position to take a proactive approach to the game state. If we have one of those already it might be better to get something like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Crucible of Worlds (Depending on what else we have). So we can really begin to pull ahead.

If others developed pretty quick (despite TATGM's slowing them down), we may need to find a board wipe. This can hopefully reset the game and allow us to grind card advantage and land drops a bit more before we can turn the corner to take the game.

Late Game - This will depend on if we've find our Token engine of field of the dead or Scute Swarm yet OR if we've already got those then we can just go and grab our finisher in Craterhoof Behemoth.

Very synergistic engines we want to try to assemble:

• Probably the bread and butter of this deck. Lands from the Graveyard (Crucible of Worlds, Conduit of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator) + Multiple Land Drops (Thalia and The Gitrog Monster, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Exploration,) = Tons of Landfall triggers for Field of the Dead or Felidar Retreat, our fetch lands all x2 the triggers. If we can, we can try to further multiply those triggers with something like Ancient Greenwarden or multiple copies of Field of the Dead. This is essentially how we will build our army over the course of 1 maybe 2 turns. This is a resilient way to build an army as Lands like FOTD are harder to deal with then your normal creature, and even if they get a wipe you can just start playing more lands. Our Sac lands also do great work here, self sacrificing to be replayed and drawing us cards for a neat little mini card advantage engine.
• Bolas's Citadel + Sensei's Divining Top = Huge card advantage and digging through the deck. Combine this with Overgrown Estate and we might be able to just play half our deck in a single turn.
• Seasons Past + Demonic Tutor = Huge inevitable card advantage. I know Season's past is on the chopping block, but I love this card and this engine is such value. Once you've established this loop with mana left over to use and reuse your removal, board wipes, ramp spells. It will be met with utter fatigue and feeling of hopelessness for your opponents, as now you'll just have an answer everything they do outside of something like a storm combo.

These may be obvious to some but i wanted to write these out for my own personal reference when play testing in the future. Also once again, since we're playing so many tutors it may be helpful to know what other cards you should seek with them given what pieces you may already have in hand or on the board.

This is a good start, but I have a small critique.

I would never tutor for a 2mv ramp spell. The #1 tutor target in the deck will likely be Crucible of Worlds, or Ramunap Excavator with GSZ/FoD. We're poised to take maximum advantage of recurring fetchlands with TATGM and a Crucible effect, so getting that card advantage/ramp engine online as soon as possible is our priority. After that, I believe our tutoring priority would be rather contextual. Are we about to die? Hour of Revelation. Is it time to start applying pressure? Field of the Dead. Out of gas? Necropotence.

I did some proxy testing today and while it performed well I felt I was playing the same game over and over again

Yeah, that's the nature of a deck with a) a centralizing commander and b) a consistent game plan. I think it's a feature, not a bug. I quite enjoy defying the Spirit of EDH and playing a deck that can execute a specific gameplan every time. That's not to say that every game is the same, though. As @Gorillajay pointed out, despite the relative consistency of the deck, the variability comes out in navigating your opponent's decks. This isn't a completely linear non-interactive combo deck. We have to make a lot of decisions each game despite a proactive strategy. As you say, you've played Karador, who naturally lends himself to a grindy, midrange/control strategy. TATGM aren't Karador.

I've had little time to devote to writing about or testing the deck lately, but I have been thinking about it. I believe we could cut the weakest ramp spell (Ilysian Caryatid in my opinion) and Seasons Past. With our flex spot, that's three slots to fill. Peer into the Abyss is a fantastic replacement for Seasons Past, but the other two are a little trickier. I want to find room for Wasteland, so maybe 47 mana-producing lands are where I'll end up. Druid Class is still a compelling addition to me as I worry about our sustainability. The only other option on my radar is Zuran Orb, Between those four I prefer the former three.

[pokken]

Hundred plus ones to tutor for crucible effect. Always get loam first imho tho. It is not quite as mana efficient but it doesn't die to early board wipes.

Curving a crucible type thing into froggirl on turn 4 is a fine game plan. It's not ideal but it will get the job done often enough.

Turn 2 Loam turn 3 dredge loam and hit lands is still going to bury most tables in value.

That said if you have 4+ lands I'd tutor for exploration with any turn 1 tutor, at least some of the time.


Re: peer
It's fine I guess but who wants to resolve that? I'd never play that over seasons past. It reads: you must absolutely try to win this turn or you are gonna get mugged.

I don't understand wanting to build your deck to have the components to mostly guarantee a storm type win after a peer. It's so lame. It's like finale of devastation with extra steps to show how clever you are.

Garbage card is garbage. Just play Tooth and Nail if you need another one of those effects.

[rogerandover]

Been lurking this thread for some time, since I'm tempted by Abzan lands too and play various lands-decks.

If I would make a lands deck with W, I would utilize Flagstones of Trokair too the max. Like, get it into play, sac it with Squandered Resources, play again from 'yard = profit. If you get a Crucible, landdroppers and a sac-outlet, you should be able to ramp pretty hard.

If you plan on consistently getting TATGM down turn 4, Search for Tomorrow might be worth it.

I recently added the karoo-lands in my sultai deck to reset stuff like channel-lands and Bojuka Bog, and I really like them. They play nicely with extra landdrops, and to utalize them even more, I've added Urza's Saga and Amulet of Vigor. Saga also gets Sol Ring, Expedition Map and Zuran Orb (which I think is much better then Overgrown Estate).

[Gorillajay]

This is a good start, but I have a small critique.

I would never tutor for a 2mv ramp spell. The #1 tutor target in the deck will likely be Crucible of Worlds, or Ramunap Excavator with GSZ/FoD. We're poised to take maximum advantage of recurring fetchlands with TATGM and a Crucible effect, so getting that card advantage/ramp engine online as soon as possible is our priority. After that, I believe our tutoring priority would be rather contextual. Are we about to die? Hour of Revelation. Is it time to start applying pressure? Field of the Dead. Out of gas? Necropotence.

Hundred plus ones to tutor for crucible effect. Always get loam first imho tho. It is not quite as mana efficient but it doesn't die to early board wipes.

Curving a crucible type thing into froggirl on turn 4 is a fine game plan. It's not ideal but it will get the job done often enough.

Turn 2 Loam turn 3 dredge loam and hit lands is still going to bury most tables in value.

That said if you have 4+ lands I'd tutor for exploration with any turn 1 tutor, at least some of the time.

Great feedbacks! I know when i was goldfishing i was second guessing a few choices especially my tutor targets so that's part of why I was sharing. Great to get second opinions on how to pilot it.

I have the deck assembled and plan to do some playtesting within my pod tonight. The list I have is almost exactly as @TheGildedGoose has in the OP with just a few small changes due to card availability.

My changes from the original list are as follows;
-Volrath's Stronghold
-Cavern of Souls
-Imperial Seal

+Flagstones of Trokair
+Thespian's Stage
+Sylvan Scrying

I believe we could cut the weakest ramp spell (Ilysian Caryatid in my opinion) and Seasons Past. With our flex spot, that's three slots to fill. Peer into the Abyss is a fantastic replacement for Seasons Past, but the other two are a little trickier. I want to find room for Wasteland, so maybe 47 mana-producing lands are where I'll end up. Druid Class is still a compelling addition to me as I worry about our sustainability. The only other option on my radar is Zuran Orb, Between those four I prefer the former three.

Cutting Ilysian Caryatid reduces our chances of T3 TATGM to ~69% vs ~72% which is tough, but i do also want to try and fit Wasteland into the deck as well. I have Wasteland and Zuran Orb that i can swap in for Ilysian Caryatid and Druid Class if I feel like we need more land drops or ways to get them into the yard.

I don't have the heart to cut Seasons Past until ive had a chance to play with it yet. I'm also not 100% sold on Peer into the Abyss. It seems a bit greedy and can really make you a target at the same time it's making you much easier to kill. Especially if an opponent suspects a combo kill from you as a follow up to drawing all those cards.


Will report back after some testing!!

[pokken]

Never ever cut volraths. It's inevitability.

Ewit volraths torment / finale

Agree with not cutting the 2 cmc tap for two dorks. They are explosive and also are bodies for a lethal finale.

[umtiger]

T&GM having first strike and deathtouch is the unique thing they provide, I am not going to even be swinging for the card most of the time myself.

Imagine playing a 1-of Lure just for fun.

I mean every card is a 1-of, but it's a unique effect. And you can make it a secret achievement. As much I want to Strip Mine people out, that's the kind of stuff I'm into as well.

[pokken]

Imagine playing a 1-of Lure just for fun.

I might see if I can get a lure-type enchantment into my enchantress shell Seems funny.

I wonder if there's been a functional upgrade of lure? will have to look

Seton's Desire is the only one that seems particularly better.

[Gorillajay]

I have the deck assembled and plan to do some playtesting within my pod tonight. The list I have is almost exactly as @TheGildedGoose has in the OP with just a few small changes due to card availability.

My changes from the original list are as follows;
-Volrath's Stronghold
-Cavern of Souls
-Imperial Seal

+Flagstones of Trokair
+Thespian's Stage
+Sylvan Scrying

Got some reps in with the deck last night and tonight, so far It performed really well. Out of 7 games I won 3. It's a small sample size, but it's a win rate I'm happy with especially when piloting a brand new deck, and against what I believe to be decks of a similar power level. The deck is pretty resilient and the game play is fun and engaging.

For context I played games in the PlayEDH Discord in the "Mid" power level, as I think this deck is appropriate for that tier, and you can play in that discord with cards that are not yet released.

Commander Perception: Thalia was new and shiny and most people were quick to realize her power. However, I don't feel like she was actively targeted outside of maybe one game. I don't expect this to remain this way for long, as once people realize her power, she may draw more attention. That said, targeted removal is valuable and doing it early game (turn 3 for example) feels really bad as it sets both you and the player you're targeting way behind the other 2 players. I feel like TATGM is in a sweet spot where she is annoying, but the value she's generating is incremental and a bit subtle. She does not scream "kill on site" as it's not like she enables a combo or is a huge threat. Which makes me hope/think that people may just hope someone else deals with her, or that she gets swept up in collateral damage some how. That being said, I think her super power is that she really only needs to be out for 2/3 turns to really set us up for success. After that, we can ideally use our tutors or other land drop/recursion engines to take over.

The game plan is very consistent and often following the pattern of:

• TAGTM or Ramp then TAGTM
• Begin to drop lands and try setup for value land plays & recursion.
• Identify a good opportunity to wipe the board and try to minimize your collateral damage.
• Quickly turn your engine on and start drawing a ton or begin pumping out tokens and win.

The three wins I had previously were pretty much the exact pattern above.

Game reports:

• Win #1 - Had an early Toxic Deluge that I used to wipe some early annoying cards that were out and even keep TATGM alive. Then I followed up with a Bolas's Citadel and then just went nuts, (probably a little too nuts) but luckily was able to find Overgrown Estate to stabilize. The citadel put me very far ahead any attempts to deal with what I was doing was just overcome with the value we were generating. Eventually won with Field of the Dead and Finale of Devastation. This was probably the fastest game, I think it ended on turn 7 or 8.
• Win #2 - No Ramp, played Thalia on Turn 4 and played a bit of a slow game. Generated some value off of Life from the Loam. The key turn was when I Hour of Revelation followed by a splendid reclamation in the same turn. After that I dropped Avenger of Zendikar and sacced all the fetch lands and boosted them up quick. I was vulnerable to a board wipe for a turn, but if they had it I wasn't too concerned as I had Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary to get it back if needed and Ad Nauseam in hand to get some more gas if needed. But they didn't have the answer and when i untapped i dropped three more fetch lands and swung for lethal.
• Win #3 - Early land and ramp situation as weird on this one (I kept a questionable hand), colors were off and ramp spells were Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth but i got TAGTM out and started getting a little bit of value as well as mostly hitting my land drops. Shortly after this I played Devastating Mastery to clean up the board. I was a bit hesitant to do this as I was losing both my enchant land ramp spells myself and I had to play a Ramunap Excavator into it before hand just to get the 4 white pips from a land in the GY. Luckily from there I followed up with Scute Swarm and Ancient Greenwarden to make around 350+ scutes and win. What was fun about this one was that not only were my scutes exposed but Maze of Ith saved me from a lethal evasive attack which then allowed me to untap and swing. I think this game was and the game below are really great examples of how resilient this deck can be.
• Notable Loss - This loss was close and I felt the game was playing out as it should've. Early TATGM + Dropping lands. There were some early global sac effects from opponents that took out TATGM and Elvish Reclaimer (before i could tutor with it) followed by a Mana Drain on my Green Sun's Zenith. This set me back pretty far. I couldn't find a board wipe after that and had to use some Targeted removal to take care of problem permanents that were going to cause an issue if not dealt with soon. Given the early game problems and the removal I had to spend, I was pretty low on cards. However, I was at 30 life and I found a Necropotence which was desperately needed especially since at this point several of the opponents were drawing pretty well as well. Unfortunately, despite drawing ~15 or so cards over 2 turns I just didn't get the ones I needed. I was pretty flooded and had all the land drops in the world, but no way to capitalize and no tutors. I ended up getting really greedy trying to dig for what I needed. However I flew too close to the sun and necro put me too close to lethal that I got gibbed from an unexpected drain effect. Overall this game was really fun and showed that I could really stay in the game despite seeing some early challenges. Had I gotten some 1 or 2 key cards from necro I feel like I could've turned a corner on this game and came back.
• Other losses - These didn't have any glaring weaknesses or flaws that I noticed. Mostly just the natural pace of the game, and a combination of bad timed plays and/or not having what I needed when I needed it. Most losses came at a time you would expect to lose, and at no point in any of the games I played did I ever feel like I wasn't "in" it which for me as a pilot is very important, and makes deck super enticing to play. (Nothing more unengaging in commander then getting board wiped and just knowing that you're chances of winning just went to near 0).

Fun plays:

• Tutoring for Boseiju, Who Endures with Sylvan Scrying to remove the Platinum Angel that was stopping my lethal attack.
• Instant speed Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog or Maze of Ith to hose an opponent.
• Bojuka Bog one opponent playing Glacial Chasm to sac it and then recur it with Life from the Loam to get the other opponent (both were GY decks).
• Not a play but in Win # 3 above I also happen to have the Craterhoof Behemoth in hand as well not that it was needed. So with x350 scutes + hoof its like 122,000 damage so that's fun.

As far as takeaways for the deck construction the biggest thing I noticed was the importance of our sustain and life gain. So much that I would be willing to dedicate a 5th slot to Sustain. Win #1 when I had Overgrown Estate to keep me alive was huge. In the notable loss above, had I been able to find that or another lifegain effect like Druid Class or Zuran Orb (not currently in the deck) I could've dug a bit deeper and not died as I had plenty of lands and land drops to play with. In another loss Druid Class was at least stemming the bleeding a bit, just not enough to save me. Zuran Orb would've been awful here as i didn't have enough lands to sac at all while Druid Class at least doing something. I can see cases where you need one or the other more, just dependent on the situation. If we choose to include Zuran Orb I do think we would need to find a land slot for Urza's Saga to create more redundancy as when you need the effect you REALLY NEED IT. And being able to get Top or sol ring seems great as well.

Overall, I REALLY love the deck, and it's exactly what I'd hoped it be. Excited to keep tweaking it and playing/testing it more.


Edit: Forgot we don't play Sol Ring (I love that about this deck.)

[pokken]

One thing I like about froggirl is she us unlikely to ever be worth targeting if you are actually trying to win and not just being salty. She's just too resilient and not high impact.

[duducrash]

At what point do we tutor field? Early and often or when we are ready to pump out zombies?