Vadrok, Apex of Thunder - Jeskai Mutate Combo Durdle

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MeowZeDung
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I love thinking about magic (too much).
I was thinking about this. Have you considered Grinning Ignus? If you want to play a bounce game, it bounces itself at sorcery speed, but, it refunds itself very heavily.
I think I wrote Grinning Ignus off because of the sorcery speed bounce, but it could be great for the combo turn with protection from Silence, Mandate of Peace, Lazotep Plating, etc.

The problem is the vulnerable mutate stack. Right now I think I like the idea of the 3 copy spells and instant speed bounce. It could replace Glitterfang I suppose. Same cost after the refund as long as I'm not blown out.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I got the last of the weird old cards I didn't own to play this deck today, like Darting Merfolk and Glitterfang, so I went to sleeve up and, to my surprise, could not find Boros Reckoner, Spitemare, Coalhauler Swine, Basilisk Collar, or Plague Myr :dizzy: I'm 99% sure I own those cards, but for the life of me don't know where they could be. Thankfully most of them are dirt cheap and I can replace them in short order. In the meantime I used the opportunity to slip Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Cackling Counterpart, Quasiduplicate, and Fated Infatuation in for a test run. I'm thinking Spiteful Sliver and Mogg Fanatic will come out to make room for these long term, and who knows what else.

I played a game against Drana, Liberator of Malakir and Gishath, Sun's Avatar. Long story short, the deck did cool stuff, but I made one or two critical errors and never got a full head of steam going.

Gishath, aka ramp.dec, had something like 10 lands in play at the end of turn 4, but fortunately I had Azorius Charm in hand + mana to cast it if Gishath attacked me, which he did not. Surprisingly enough I was able to kill 3-4 dinos he got off the combat damage trigger on my turn with a lowly Sweltering Suns, but that's mostly due to luck that he hit small utility dinos like Kinjalli's Sunwing.

Drana never really got a whole lot going either. Cabal Stronghold + Jet Medallion accelerated her, but there was nothing too scary going on with her board.

I tapped out for a Heartless Hidetsugu before playing a rav bounceland for the turn with the Azorius Charm still in hand. The intention was to gain gobs of life the following turn. Predictably, no one else liked seeing it hit the board, but Drana had to devote all resources toward fending off the runaway dino herd. Gishath smacked me for a lot and flipped over 4-5 more dinos and had a ridiculous board.

I knew gaining a ton of life with a lifelinking Hidetsugu would be sweet and all, but dinos were going to just eat it all back up. Fortunately, I drew into a massive flavor win via Star of Extinction, activated Hidetsugu without the charm, blew up Gishath's command tower, then rendered the dinosaurs extinct.

Somewhere in the middle of all this mess there was a Silverclad Ferocidons that had triggered several times and I had sacced a Sol Ring and Sunbaked Canyon to it. Earlier the Sweltering Suns nabbed my Palladium Myr. I was hurting for mana, to say the least. All that to say, I was able to stick a Thalakos Scout with a Lore Drakkis in hand. Unfortunately, life totals were low and I didn't have great options. I tried to give Drana a window of opportunity to snipe the Dino deck and cast Bonus Round into Boros Charm with a mutation. Not great, I know, but it was the best I had after spending all my resources wiping a hyper ramped Gishath twice will being punished for it. I got him down to like 9 life or so, but Drana didn't have enough to slam the door on him unfortunately.

The biggest mistake I made was then allowing the Thalakos Scout to die when I could have bounced it. I think my addled brain thought it was Darting Merfolk and I was tapped out. The discard to bounce would have effectively cost me nothing since I had a Windfall to follow up with next turn.

From there it was pretty much a struggle session to stay alive and try to burn out Gishath while drana and I were both under 10 life and a Verdant Sun's Avatar had just hit the board, and it didn't go well :sick:

Other than the scout bounce boo-boo, I think my other misplay was holding up azorius charm mana hoping to bounce Gishath early on when I had a Windfall I could have fired off instead. I never was in a position of proactively drawing this game, and I think that would have made all the difference.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Alrighty, another game with Whiskers, the Pterodactyl is in the books.

Vadrok vs. Drana, Liberator of Malakir vs. Gishath, Sun's Avatar vs. Roon of the Hidden Realm

Pretty standard opening turns. Rhystic Study from me, Bad Moon + Drana from Drana, Gishath Cultivated, and Roon cast a Wood Elves.

The first real spice of the game was a Seedborn Muse from Roon and some threatening words exchanged about what would happen in the event of an attack from a Nightmare Lash wielding Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I had Boros Charm in hand and could have given Drana double strike to one shot Roon out of the game and almost started to talk her into going for it, but I was pretty sure the Roon player wasn't bluffing about having removal in hand.

Rhystic Study had really been great thus far, and without a bounce creature to play I decided to maximize my chances of drawing into one and played Whirlwind of Thought holding up mana to protect Study/Whirlwind with Lazotep Plating or cycle Sweltering Suns.

Roon requested I not counter what they were about to do, assuring me it wouldn't "hurt" me, and in exchange they wouldn't mess with me until their next turn. I agreed, since I didn't actually have a counter in hand anyway and had nothing to lose. They played Deadeye Navigator with their Seedborn Muse and Wood Elves already in play :crazy: Needless to say all of the forests in their deck were on the battlefield before their next turn.

Gishath smacked Roon and fortunately only flipped a single dino, which I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

I cycled away Sweltering Suns before my turn and realized I was pretty much dead or close enough to it if I didn't fire off the Star of Extinction in my hand that turn. Unfortunately, I was a mana short and land-wise I only had Celestial Colonnade and Izzet Boilerworks in my hand. Well, "no guts, no glory" they say, and Roon had made a promise, so I floated my mana, played the Boilerworks bouncing a plains, cast Iron Myr and followed it up with Stitch in Time. I won the flip :party:

I played a land for turn, and cast Star of Extinction, blowing up Gishath's Command Tower and all creatures in play :cool:

Drana brought her commander back out and a random vamp and had Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Lashwrithe, and Nightmare Lash to go with her.

Roon cast Thragtusk and Luminate Primordial :sick:

Gishath played a land and was able to stick the big dino again and smack me. Once more he was unlucky and only flipped a Temple Altisaur.

I played a Jeskai Ascendancy, thus assembling the holy grail of Jeskai draw with Ascendancy/Whirlwind/Study. I cast a couple of spells I can't remember looking to draw into a stinking bounce creature and still failed. I drew into a Vanish into Memory though and held mana up for it since it was a perfect way to answer Drana if she swung at me and also draw into the action I needed to combo out next turn. I already had several pieces in hand and the Stitch in Time in the graveyard, so really all I needed was to untap and cast a bounce creature and start mutating and Stitching 2+ times per turn.

Drana attacked Roon since it was becoming apparent he was going to keep exiling Drana with Luminate Primordial eventually even though she would gain a ton of life with the two whips and urborg on board. He responded to the attack with Swords to Plowshares and I couldn't let the opportunity pass even though it would mean being hit by Gishath, so I responded with Vanish into Memory drawing 12 since only one whip was attached at the moment. I drew into both Lore Drakkis and Thalakos Scout a half turn cycle too late.

Thus began a nutty series of events made possible by the new commander death triggers rules change (I assume we interpreted it correctly). Drana decided to let her commander exile to the Vanish into Memory and come back on my upkeep to avoid commander tax. Roon cast Helm of the Host and made a second Primordial, which only nabbed a Temple Altisaur. Gishath found some double strike and was able to kill me with Gishath :x and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten infinite turns too! Well, since I wouldn't have an upkeep, that meant that Drana was gone. Gone gone. Roon was in a position where commander damage or something infinte was going to be the only way to kill him, and Gishath wasn't going to be able to handle the Luminate Primordial nonsense that was sure to come.

Fortunately for her, Drana had the perfect topdeck: Necromantic Selection. Now, if we interpreted the new death trigger rule correctly, this means that Gishath died and went to the graveyard and was a valid target for Necromantic Selection, so the mono black deck brought Gishath back to the battlefield as a zombie dino, equipped Lashwrithe and Nightmare Lash, then one shotted Roon with commander damage from a different player's commander! Gishath had no relevant play without their commander and conceded.

TL;DR - My goofy mutate combo durdle deck came awfully close to infinite turns with mutates and Stitch in Time despite not drawing a bounce creature until late in the game, but ultimately a zombie dinosaur swinging fiery whips with it's dinky arms won the game.

Edit for a couple of random thoughts that aren't worth a new post: I got a copy of Wheel of Fate that I need to find room for, and I really think Golden Guardian // Gold-Forge Garrison could be worth running. The best case is fighting Swans of Bryn Argoll, but there's plenty of ways to make use of some indestructibility/lifelink, damage reflectors, or Arcbond with the fightbot while I'm developing my board and digging for combo pieces.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Just a brief thought: might it be worth running something like Zada, Hedron Grinder or Precursor Golem? It would be a nifty way to multiply Arcbond and lifelink/indestructible/damage spells without always needing to mutate. On the other hand, I don't want to run up the creature count, Precursor Golem can be blown out easily enough, and Zada, Hedron Grinder has a way of morphing whole decks.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Another brief thought: in my travels on the interwebs today I saw Sanctum of Eternity, which I've either never seen before or can't recall ever seeing. Anywho, am I correct in assuming its activation would bounce an entire mutate pile to hand even if Vadrok is not the top card?
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Another brief thought: in my travels on the interwebs today I saw Sanctum of Eternity, which I've either never seen before or can't recall ever seeing. Anywho, am I correct in assuming its activation would bounce an entire mutate pile to hand even if Vadrok is not the top card?
I believe yes.
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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

ever since I cracked a EA, alt art, foil Vadrok (which basically screamed at me GET the other 99 and build me NOW), I've being playing lacklustre games with Vadrok.

I trawled the internet on how to make him work. Like seriously. The work done here is one of the most extensive on the dinosaur elemental cat, and yet even then it felt like something was missing (I'm not pissing on Meow's work, I'm sure we all feel the same way about Vadrok).

Last night as I was mulling over how none of us could bring out his full potential instead of sleeping like a normal human, an approach occurred to me that I hadn't seen on the internet yet.

We've all figured that Vadrok's weird shortcoming was that his value isn't exactly value if you bounce him, playing a lot of mutate creatures just doesn't feel powerful (it would have made more sense if their P/T just kept adding up but nope). You get into this very awkward 99 with recur targets jostle with ramp which jostles with protection spells or bounce spells which jostles with mutate creatures with jostles with wincons....

What if, we play towards consistency? What if Vadrok himself is the wincon? How about playing Vadrok, voltron-style, but more precisely, like Sram but different?

I started thinking about how Vadrok would be better than Sram. Sram basically "storms" or cantrips through the deck minus the mana flow, quickly slapping pieces on himself. Having played extensively against Sram in my playgroup, however, it becomes immediately apparent that Sram depends a lot on topdecks, and destroyed equipment doesn't quite come back if destroyed, especially auras. Since although the tutors are in only white, there are just so many you can jam in: Spellshaper's gift, Idyllic tutor, enlightened tutor, open the armory, heliod's pilgrim.

Vadrok has access to Jeskai, which is just insane when it comes to tutoring key equipment.
Steelshaper's Gift*
Open the armory*
Idyllic Tutor*
Enlightened Tutor*
Stoneforge mystic
Goblin Engineer
Gamble
Treasure/Trophy/Trinket Mages
Tinker*
Fabricate*

And I'm pretty darn sure there's more, this is just off the top of my head. The tutors with the * next to them are the ones we can recur with Vadrok. Recurring a tutor for equipment with your voltron commander is just crazy. Now, one might think creatures are less favorable since they can't be recurred, but I think they solve the problem of having a body to mutate with. Goblin Engineer is particularly exciting to me. He comes in, bins swiftfoot boots or whatever you need next, and Vadrok conveniently mutates over him and recurs said equipment so you don't even have to cast it. Then, think about how crazy Gamble is. What's the worst part about Gamble? Clearly, the random discard hitting what you just gambled! Oh no, the blackblade is now in the graveyard! Boohoo- wait, what does Vadrok do again?

The equipment/aura targets? We don't have to make a long list, since now the rest of the deck will be jammed with interaction to keep our opponents off balance before our voltron commander can do their job. Here are the ones I have in mind, in the order you probably want to fetch them;
Swiftfoot Boots (first priority - protection)
Mask of Avacyn (in case swiftfoot is somehow exiled)
Blackblade reforged (damage level 1 - getting that power up)
Fireshrieker (damage level 2 - double strike)
Battle Mastery (back up for fireshrieker)
Darksteel Plate (for the midgame onwards where board wipes can be expected)

Everything up there can be recurred with Vadrok. Unlike Sram, who if somehow thrust back into the command zone will not see most of his auras ever again, Vadrok not only recurs them but does it on his way back onto the battlefield. Mutating Vadrok, getting back battle mastery and then slapping Swiftfoot boots and blackblade back on? yummy! Someone crack a Nev disk? No problem, Vadrok can get his gear back, too.

So, we have a commander who, like Sram, likes to slap on equipment. Unlike Sram, he doesn't stuff the deck full of half-baked equipment to cantrip thru, but focuses on using tutors to get only the best equipment (under 3 cmc anyway), can recur auras and equipment that got destroyed, and then has the rest of the Jeskai interaction suite to protect himself from stuff his gear can't handle, like Toxic Deluge.

Of course, we would do well to include *some* mutate creatures, but only the best, naturally. Mutate creatures in the 99 still play an important role, because they help to further tutor up additional equipment to further speed along the game.
I'm thinking:
Lore Drakkis
Sea-Dasher Octopus
Archipelagore
Vulpikeet

Drakiss and Octopus are straightforward adds. Archipelagore is mostly there to be the top card, because recurring a tutor or equipment and adding 4 power to the base at once, seems like a sweet deal. Vulpikeet is there because of the low cost and the potential to grow the commander bigger, although if we run a smaller mutate suite in favor of interaction, then realistically we aren't going to see this effect much. But for 2w, it's hard to complain since it will break parity recurring a 3 cmc/tutor and adding a +1/+1 counter.

I haven't thought up the rest of the 99 apart from the gear and tutor packages, but unlike all the other Vadrok iterations I've tried before, for once I feel like this might actually work. Consistency, Resilience and interaction.

So far, the pie I have in mind looks like this:
lands - 36
rocks/ramp - 12
tutors - 12
gear - 9
mutate - 4
interaction - 26

That's a lot of space for interaction. It's already 3 am here and this time I've got work in the morning so I'd better stop here.

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Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

This looks like something I can get behind. I've been loving a Vadrok Brawl deck I built on Arena, and have been wanting to turn it into a commander deck, but there are both too many ways to build him, and too few that seem like they'll actually work in EDH. The main list here is cool, but needing 13 mana to go off seems like it's asking a lot.

That said, your "pie" is lacking targets to mutate onto.

Some cards I've looked at for a list:
Sprite Dragon has been a great mutate target, that should be even better in a voltron shell--it comes with Haste, and grows for every non-creature spell played.

Sevinne's Reclamation is recurrable with Vadrok, provides a way to recur creatures (with CMC 3 or less), AND copies itself when cast out of the graveyard. That can bring back 2 equipment, for example.

Sigarda's Aid would let you cheat on the equip cost for any equipment you brought in.

The deck still needs some card draw. There are card draw equipment and auras, or non-human creatures that draw cards in various ways.

For creatures: tutors and draw engines that aren't human are probably the best bet, to both provide value and a target for Vadrok.
MarcWizard wrote:
3 years ago
ever since I cracked a EA, alt art, foil Vadrok (which basically screamed at me GET the other 99 and build me NOW), I've being playing lacklustre games with Vadrok.

I trawled the internet on how to make him work. Like seriously. The work done here is one of the most extensive on the dinosaur elemental cat, and yet even then it felt like something was missing (I'm not pissing on Meow's work, I'm sure we all feel the same way about Vadrok).

Last night as I was mulling over how none of us could bring out his full potential instead of sleeping like a normal human, an approach occurred to me that I hadn't seen on the internet yet.

We've all figured that Vadrok's weird shortcoming was that his value isn't exactly value if you bounce him, playing a lot of mutate creatures just doesn't feel powerful (it would have made more sense if their P/T just kept adding up but nope). You get into this very awkward 99 with recur targets jostle with ramp which jostles with protection spells or bounce spells which jostles with mutate creatures with jostles with wincons....

What if, we play towards consistency? What if Vadrok himself is the wincon? How about playing Vadrok, voltron-style, but more precisely, like Sram but different?

I started thinking about how Vadrok would be better than Sram. Sram basically "storms" or cantrips through the deck minus the mana flow, quickly slapping pieces on himself. Having played extensively against Sram in my playgroup, however, it becomes immediately apparent that Sram depends a lot on topdecks, and destroyed equipment doesn't quite come back if destroyed, especially auras. Since although the tutors are in only white, there are just so many you can jam in: Spellshaper's gift, Idyllic tutor, enlightened tutor, open the armory, heliod's pilgrim.

Vadrok has access to Jeskai, which is just insane when it comes to tutoring key equipment.
Steelshaper's Gift*
Open the armory*
Idyllic Tutor*
Enlightened Tutor*
Stoneforge mystic
Goblin Engineer
Gamble
Treasure/Trophy/Trinket Mages
Tinker*
Fabricate*

And I'm pretty darn sure there's more, this is just off the top of my head. The tutors with the * next to them are the ones we can recur with Vadrok. Recurring a tutor for equipment with your voltron commander is just crazy. Now, one might think creatures are less favorable since they can't be recurred, but I think they solve the problem of having a body to mutate with. Goblin Engineer is particularly exciting to me. He comes in, bins swiftfoot boots or whatever you need next, and Vadrok conveniently mutates over him and recurs said equipment so you don't even have to cast it. Then, think about how crazy Gamble is. What's the worst part about Gamble? Clearly, the random discard hitting what you just gambled! Oh no, the blackblade is now in the graveyard! Boohoo- wait, what does Vadrok do again?

The equipment/aura targets? We don't have to make a long list, since now the rest of the deck will be jammed with interaction to keep our opponents off balance before our voltron commander can do their job. Here are the ones I have in mind, in the order you probably want to fetch them;
Swiftfoot Boots (first priority - protection)
Mask of Avacyn (in case swiftfoot is somehow exiled)
Blackblade reforged (damage level 1 - getting that power up)
Fireshrieker (damage level 2 - double strike)
Battle Mastery (back up for fireshrieker)
Darksteel Plate (for the midgame onwards where board wipes can be expected)

Everything up there can be recurred with Vadrok. Unlike Sram, who if somehow thrust back into the command zone will not see most of his auras ever again, Vadrok not only recurs them but does it on his way back onto the battlefield. Mutating Vadrok, getting back battle mastery and then slapping Swiftfoot boots and blackblade back on? yummy! Someone crack a Nev disk? No problem, Vadrok can get his gear back, too.

So, we have a commander who, like Sram, likes to slap on equipment. Unlike Sram, he doesn't stuff the deck full of half-baked equipment to cantrip thru, but focuses on using tutors to get only the best equipment (under 3 cmc anyway), can recur auras and equipment that got destroyed, and then has the rest of the Jeskai interaction suite to protect himself from stuff his gear can't handle, like Toxic Deluge.

Of course, we would do well to include *some* mutate creatures, but only the best, naturally. Mutate creatures in the 99 still play an important role, because they help to further tutor up additional equipment to further speed along the game.
I'm thinking:
Lore Drakkis
Sea-Dasher Octopus
Archipelagore
Vulpikeet

Drakiss and Octopus are straightforward adds. Archipelagore is mostly there to be the top card, because recurring a tutor or equipment and adding 4 power to the base at once, seems like a sweet deal. Vulpikeet is there because of the low cost and the potential to grow the commander bigger, although if we run a smaller mutate suite in favor of interaction, then realistically we aren't going to see this effect much. But for 2w, it's hard to complain since it will break parity recurring a 3 cmc/tutor and adding a +1/+1 counter.

I haven't thought up the rest of the 99 apart from the gear and tutor packages, but unlike all the other Vadrok iterations I've tried before, for once I feel like this might actually work. Consistency, Resilience and interaction.

So far, the pie I have in mind looks like this:
lands - 36
rocks/ramp - 12
tutors - 12
gear - 9
mutate - 4
interaction - 26

That's a lot of space for interaction. It's already 3 am here and this time I've got work in the morning so I'd better stop here.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I love that some folks, however few they may be, are into Vadrok. I really like what I did with him, but it did play a bit clunky and the format has just gotten more base-line competitive even at more "casual" levels. WotC didn't do the sweet lightning pterodactyl tiger art justice with the ability imo. I feel like if it mutated for 3 mana it would be perfect.

I still think the best success I had with Vadrok was using @tstorm823's idea from this thread to keep frankensteining a mutant token before making another token and bouncing the original to hand. For example: play Grinning Ignus, mutate Lore Drakkis onto it to recur something like Frantic Search to play for "free" and throw fuel in the bin, mutate Vadrok and cast Fated Infatuation or similar onto the mutant creature to create a token of it. Now bounce the Ignus and Vadrok/Drakkis to hand and use the mana for mutates on the new mutant token creature. Once or twice I got it to the point that each mutate would yield like 6 other mutate triggers and that tended to be enough with my nonsense Spitemare tribal combo plan (which I found a 3 cmc gem for in Blood of the Martyr btw!).

Unfortunately, the way it turned out was as a rube goldberg machine that only did one thing (albeit about a hundred different ways), and that one thing wasn't too terribly interesting. Chaining Stitch in Time was even less interesting. I haven't completely given up on the list though, and I may revisit it someday.

All that said, I think the idea of Vadrok voltron equipment is a decent one. As I believe I mention in the OP, I saw Vadrok primarily as a combo piece in the command zone, and you're essentially using the same concept except for equipment tutors instead of combo. Jeskai is certainly a sweet wedge to run an equipment deck in. With that approach I think what would make or break the deck is your selection of mutate targets. My first port of call if I were building such a deck would be non-human creatures that say "hexproof" on them, preferably with some other evasion or ability:



Man lands are also a target you could use to keep your stack of mutates and equipment safer while it's not your turn. You might also look into phasing with something like Teferi's Veil.

Good luck.
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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

Yes, I didn't quite provide many mutate bodies apart from those that also tutor, did I.

So I went and did some research on possible targets, and I found that Hexproof comes at a heavy premium on most creatures in Jeskai. The cheapest one (and I mean ONE) in Jeskai is 1U for Invisible Stalker, and lo, he be human. From there we go to ONE 3 cmc in Geist.... and after that they're all 4 cmc and clashing with Vadrok at the same spot on the curve. I hate it.

Based on this I decided that the equipment would provide the Hexproof, and I could instead get one of the other 2 things we want: high power or double strike. Of these 2, it's clearer which one is easily obtained. So instead of casting a 4 cmc hexproof creature and mutating it at 4 cmc before slapping on power and double strike, I'll slap a hexproof equipment on a 1, 2 or 3 cmc double striker and then mutate, in that order.

This is just as well, since double striking equipment is basically... ONE (Fireshrieker). So we're letting the keywords play in their respectively more competent fields in any case.

Here's the cmc curve of nonhuman double strikers (it's quite the pity we can't use humans, because there are so many of them)
1: Kor Duelist - he's almost always going to meet that condition
2: Kor Blademaster, Adorned Pouncer, Reyav, Master Smith , Warren Instigator
3: Markov Blademaster, Solemn Recruit, Two-Headed Cerberus , Skyhunter Skirmisher , Aven Sunstriker , Hearthfire Hobgoblin , Raging Redcap

Between 1-3 cmc we have a decent quantity (12), and there's some quality there too. I especially like Markov Blademaster and Solemn Recruit because they keep growing. Adorned Pouncer is very cool because it comes down early, and even in event of an accident it'll still come back to provide a base power 4 creature with double strike.

As I browsed the list I'd never been so upset at certain cards for being human:
Prophetic Flamespeaker , Mirran Crusader , Imperial Lancer, Swiftblade Vindicator . Why'd you have to be human?!

Regards to hexproof equipment, we have 5 in varying flavors and pros/cons.
Champion's Helm cheap to equip; provides 2 power; doesn't protect most base creatures before Vadrok comes on.
Mask of Avacyn exp equip cost; adds 1 power
Mirror Shield pretty much a worse boots unless he specifically takes 3-5 damage exxactly
Ring of Evos Isle Cheap to equip; have to pay for that hexproof, but it keeps growing Vadrok
Swiftfoot Boots pretty much the go-to.

In terms of power it looks like Blackblade Reforged is the straightforward answer. We have all manners of swords to toolbox if desired, since Vadrok can recur all of them anyway. Which is nice since swords tend to draw artifact removal.

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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

The first session with Vadrok yielded promising results. Vadrok would consistently get his power level to a remove-or-die status. The issue would be getting that hexproof more consistently. I've just added Stoneforge Mystic and Steelshaper's Gift to the arsenal, so I expect things to go a lot smoother. I've cut Ring of Evos Isle as the cost to get hexproof is too high, leaving Mask of Avacyn and Swiftfoot Boots the hexproof providers of the deck.

Or so I thought, until I was rummaging through my chaff for stuff to jam into my new work in progress (Araumi), I found this: Curator's Ward

As long as this card is in the GY, every time Vadrok mutates onto a double striker I can get the creature hexproofed first (since the mutate trigger and the free-cast spell resolve first) and then Vadrok comes on I can get the hexproof on without paying an equip cost. And then if Vadrok is somehow killed, maybe with a wipe before he got Hammer of Nazahn on, I get to draw 2 cards. And I can do it all over again with another base double striker.

So far the deck doesn't have issues with getting double strikers in hand, I in fact found that sometimes I had too many (a problem reminiscent of Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow and her base evasive creatures) in hand instead of useful stuff like interaction.
Last edited by MarcWizard 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MarcWizard wrote:
3 years ago
(since the mutate trigger and the free-cast spell resolve first)
I still think you found a valuable tool here, but this part is incorrect. Mutate triggers when the creatures successfully combine, so Vadrok is absolutely on the battlefield before the free spell is cast.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Yep, the triggers don't stack to give you hexproof first. Still, Curator's Ward is some sweet tech at 3cmc and with the draw 2. Not much riskier than resolving and equipping Swiftfoot Boots.

Don't sleep on the better protection spells. Gods Willing, Brave the Elements, Apostle's Blessing, Lazotep Plating, Dive Down, or Mizzium Skin might be worth a look for protection before you get hexproof gear equipped. Some help you connect with a huge dino kitty too.
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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
MarcWizard wrote:
3 years ago
(since the mutate trigger and the free-cast spell resolve first)
I still think you found a valuable tool here, but this part is incorrect. Mutate triggers when the creatures successfully combine, so Vadrok is absolutely on the battlefield before the free spell is cast.
Oh dang, I thought the mutate trigger occurs with Vadrok still on the stack, like the Ulamog cast trigger or cascade. Thanks for setting me straight there.

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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Yep, the triggers don't stack to give you hexproof first. Still, Curator's Ward is some sweet tech at 3cmc and with the draw 2. Not much riskier than resolving and equipping Swiftfoot Boots.

Don't sleep on the better protection spells. Gods Willing, Brave the Elements, Apostle's Blessing, Lazotep Plating, Dive Down, or Mizzium Skin might be worth a look for protection before you get hexproof gear equipped. Some help you connect with a huge dino kitty too.
I prefer counterspells that can both hamstring someone else trying to win and also protect, rather than something that will only exclusively serve one purpose. I seldom play cards like Vines of Vastwood or Gods Willing nowadays, after having experienced that. It feels bad to have a hand full of protection spells and then somebody goes off. Ideally, I want Fierce Guardianship, but dang that price tag.

I didn't mention this, but Vadrok is an excellent Sunforger user. It's Jeskai, which means I get to fetch Dovin's Veto, Absorb, Counterflux, and one of my favorites: Render Silent.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Those minus Render Silent are my forger counterspell package in Kykar. Good stuff.

Re: protection vs counters - you aren't wrong (I say run some of each), but keep in mind you have some added utility here with slightly lower mana costs on the pro spells and value from vad dad triggers. Being able to make voltron cat effectively unblockable with a Gods Willing every combat off of its mutate triggers is not nothing.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

MarcWizard wrote:
3 years ago
Oh dang, I thought the mutate trigger occurs with Vadrok still on the stack, like the Ulamog cast trigger or cascade. Thanks for setting me straight there.
No problemo! I once though Coalition Victory was an enchantment, so we all make mistakes.
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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Those minus Render Silent are my forger counterspell package in Kykar. Good stuff.

Re: protection vs counters - you aren't wrong (I say run some of each), but keep in mind you have some added utility here with slightly lower mana costs on the pro spells and value from vad dad triggers. Being able to make voltron cat effectively unblockable with a Gods Willing every combat off of its mutate triggers is not nothing.
Hmmm I didn't have many issues with blockers, more like, I was more likely to be targeted and killed when my commander is 18/12 double strike flying hexproof indestructible. I needed blockers! Maybe I should be playing wraths since my commander will usually have Hammer of Nazahn by the midgame.

I'm running very few mutates in the 99, about 4? Lore Drakkis , Archipelagore , Vulpikeet , Sea-Dasher Octopus . So I won't get to recur the combat tricks often. I'm more likely to use any additional mutates to get even more equipment on the board. Getting Sunforger off a mutate trigger which can then fetch a removal spell, or straight up fetching a sword that will let me fly past the right colors, will get the trick done. Looking forward to another EDH sesh this weekend, will let you guys know how the dino thunder kitty does.

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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

I'm back to talk about the base creatures I ended up going with. The deck direction so far has been great for me, and compared to when I was fidgeting around with multiple moving pieces Vadrok now gets a lot more respect (which is a nice way of saying I now sometimes become archenemy). It's hard to ignore a commander that could one shot you on his next combat step and probably just did someone else in. Most game I would get at least 1 kill, but as with most voltron strategies, it can be a challenge be the last man standing.

7 Double Strikers:
Kor Duelist Lowest point on the curve. Sometimes great in the midgame for suddenly setting up a kill with any equipment already on the board.
Kor Blademaster 2 cmc vanilla, accepted for the low cost.
Reyav, Master Smith as above.
Adorned Pouncer 2 cmc with a perk of coming back late game to haunt people.
Ghostblade Eidolon 3 cmc, but I can smack him down on an existing mutate stack for 1 more power and double strike if it ain't there.
Markov Blademaster 3 cmc, and usually gets removed ASAP, for obvious reasons.
Solemn Recruit 3 cmc, doesn't grow all that much since I don't have many fetches.

2 Hexproofers:
Geist of Saint Traft his cmc is what got him a slot, mutating him means I need to grab Fireshrieker or Ghostblade Eidolon
Lone Revenant cmc is kinda high but it's hard to deny that his ability gels well with the strategy. Just hope this isn't the first base creature you get.

5 "Others":
Serra Ascendant another 1 cmc base creature, and one of the best. A threat before mutation, and an absolute beast after, and when the equipment comes on all eyes will be on Vadrok.
Brightling I have to confess, this is actually my least favorite base creature. Yes, he can come home in response to the most wipey wipes of em all (terminus, toxic deluge) but offensively speaking, he has very little to offer. I don't actually want to bounce everything and then pray nobody has a counterspell on the way back down.
Dreadhorde Arcanist I have a love hate relationship with this guy. Like brightling he adds no protective or offensive value, but he does keep recasting the spells, BUT those spells are gone forever. On more than one occasion I've wanted to mutate-recast something only to recall that Arcanist had already spent it.
Goblin Engineer tutor and body. not much to say here, although I have to comment that he can do a lot of work in the midgame swapping mana rocks for destroyed equipment. Once Vadrok mutates onto him though, he has much more important things to do. Like beat face, or beat face.
Stoneforge Mystic Pretty much the same as Engineer. Does a cute defensive trick with Hammer of Nazahn.

That's the 14 I have so far, and I think I just saw #13, or maybe a replacement for Brightling: Halvar, God of Battle // Sword of the Realms . Other than being a double strike with a nice base (the only double striker whom Vadrok would be mutating UNDER), he has an equally relevant back face. The protection that equipment provides covers Toxic Deluge. It's too bad the front face is a creature, meaning fetching him will be trickier.

I'm looking forward to the red (trample? firebreathing?) and blue (hexproof? not flying please) cycles for the Kaldheim gods. If they're all gonna be equipment on the back face, my wallet is going to take a serious beating.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Glad your take on a Vadrok deck is going well for you.

I really think Reyav, Master Blacksmith was a great addition for boros equipment decks. I look forward to playing that guy on T2, then dropping and equipping stuff like Mask of Memory, Bloodforged Battle-Axe, Prying Blade, and Shadowspear.

I'm also excited to see what new modular viking equipment they release. I am getting a little concerned that too many double faced cards providing flexibility and value are going to feel like "must includes" in a lot of decks though, and I dislike when a card feels like a must-include just because it's so goodstuffy rather than having synergy through the roof. That doesn't sound like the case with your Voltron Cat and Halvar, God of Battle // Sword of the Realms though.
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Post by MarcWizard » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I'm also excited to see what new modular viking equipment they release. I am getting a little concerned that too many double faced cards providing flexibility and value are going to feel like "must includes" in a lot of decks though, and I dislike when a card feels like a must-include just because it's so goodstuffy rather than having synergy through the roof. That doesn't sound like the case with your Voltron Cat and Halvar, God of Battle // Sword of the Realms though.
I know exactly what you mean and I feel the same. There's a kick from using an otherwise overlooked card that just somehow works super well with your specific commander or strategy. Case in point is Curator's Ward , which basically sees play nowhere else.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Any updates on the Voltron version of this? I'm gearing up (pun intended) to build a version of that.

And would you lean more into auras, equipment, or just run the best of both?

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Post by MarcWizard » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Any updates on the Voltron version of this? I'm gearing up (pun intended) to build a version of that.

And would you lean more into auras, equipment, or just run the best of both?
Another elemental dinosaur cat enjoyer! I've not made any changes lately to the deck, mostly because I hardly even get to MTG now due to the lockdown. My voltron uses tutors, and there are more artifact tutors than aura tutors that can be recurred with vadrok, so I lean equipment. The 2 key auras I still run are battle mastery, because it is the single cheapest way to give vadrok double strike, and curator's ward, which is just TOO good.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Thanks.

If you have a computer and phone/webcam, you should check out the various Spelltable-related channels on Discord. Get to play games nearly 24/7.

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Post by MarcWizard » 2 years ago

Since we spoke on the deck I decided to do some quick searches on whether MH2 or AFR had any new tech. I looked at modular (because when you mutate onto something modular you basically keep all the P/T and add it to 3/3) and double strike creatures at 3 or less cmc as usual. Nothing interesting in the modular department, unfortunately. If there had been modular double striker it would have been the *chefs kiss*.

Double strikers, on the other hand, I see a must include from AFR: Blink Dog

3 cmc, comes with the ability to phase out. Considering its the ultimate protective ability that even dodges toxic deluge AND keeps all your equipment and auras attached, there's no way to leave this out.

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