Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

[ZenN]

In your deck I think Bojuka Bog is what I'd cut.

I actually just recently put that in, because graveyard shenanigans are rampant in my group, and I wanted to be able to Golos to remove someone's yard,.

Hmm, I never had much luck with it really but ymmv. I've found myself cutting it because of all the times drawing it pissed me off. YMMV.

Drawing it can occasionally be annoying, but it hasn't been much of an issue yet. Also, I've gotten some sweet extra value by being able to flicker it with both Aminatou, the Fateshifter and Ghostly Flicker, so that's sweet.

[ZenN]

I wrote some more stuff into the updated OP. Toying with the idea of turning it into a full primer. Would love some thoughts on the things there currently.

[Kitsune_18]

I'm curious about the choice of Beast Within over Anguished Unmaking. Both you and @benjameenbear opted for it. Is the extra color restriction of unmaking too inconvenient? Or is it really that much more valuable to be able to target lands? In most circumstances I'd personally rather lose 3 life than give an opponent a 3/3. The exile is also nice, though it probably won't mean the difference between a win and loss very often.

[ZenN]

I'm curious about the choice of Beast Within over Anguished Unmaking. Both you and @benjameenbear opted for it. Is the extra color restriction of unmaking too inconvenient? Or is it really that much more valuable to be able to target lands? In most circumstances I'd personally rather lose 3 life than give an opponent a 3/3. The exile is also nice, though it probably won't mean the difference between a win and loss very often.

To be fair, it could easily be either. There are enough problematic lands that I'm very happy to have another way of destroying them, and generally a 3/3 token is pretty irrelevant, especially in metas where most decks are running 4+ sweepers (like my group). Given the way I play the deck, with eating away at my own life then resetting with Resolute Archangel, the 3 life also doesn't particularly matter. With a good mana base the colours ALSO don't really matter. So it's really just a preference thing.

[pokken]

I'd consider cutting Beast Within for Spellseeker tbh, you have rift and trophy you can get with it that're both superior to beast within.

(Obviously that has some issues in that you can't use seeker to get an answer to Torpor Orb for example, if that's a serious concern I might consider running Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft (or possibly even Caustic Caterpillar) which is an answer to orb you can get with Survival of the Fittest and/or Eladamri's Call)

[ZenN]

I'd consider cutting Beast Within for Spellseeker tbh, you have rift and trophy you can get with it that're both superior to beast within.

(Obviously that has some issues in that you can't use seeker to get an answer to Torpor Orb for example, if that's a serious concern I might consider running Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft (or possibly even Caustic Caterpillar) which is an answer to orb you can get with Survival of the Fittest and/or Eladamri's Call)

Actually, what I'm probably more likely to do is cut something else for Spellseeker at some point, and then cut Beast Within for either like Abrupt Decay or Despark or something. They're more narrow, but efficient and having Spellseeker would make me care a bit less about my answers being slightly more narrow.

As for Torpor Orb answers that I can get with creature tutors, I used to run Qasali Pridemage, but have since cut it as it just hasn't been necessary. That's extra true now that I have more non-creature tutors thanks to black. Also, Kogla, the Titan Ape kind of counts. Sorta.

[pokken]

Actually, what I'm probably more likely to do is cut something else for Spellseeker at some point, and then cut Beast Within for either like Abrupt Decay or Despark or something. They're more narrow, but efficient and having Spellseeker would make me care a bit less about my answers being slightly more narrow.

As for Torpor Orb answers that I can get with creature tutors, I used to run Qasali Pridemage, but have since cut it as it just hasn't been necessary. That's extra true now that I have more non-creature tutors thanks to black. Also, Kogla, the Titan Ape kind of counts. Sorta.

Makes sense. Don't sleep on Unexpectedly Absent It's the second 2 CMC removal after Assassin's Trophy imho WW is a bit awkward but you've got a ton of WW dudes in your deck.

I know you were just over sayin the opposite but I'd sure as heck try it before Abrupt Decay

[ZenN]

Actually, what I'm probably more likely to do is cut something else for Spellseeker at some point, and then cut Beast Within for either like Abrupt Decay or Despark or something. They're more narrow, but efficient and having Spellseeker would make me care a bit less about my answers being slightly more narrow.

As for Torpor Orb answers that I can get with creature tutors, I used to run Qasali Pridemage, but have since cut it as it just hasn't been necessary. That's extra true now that I have more non-creature tutors thanks to black. Also, Kogla, the Titan Ape kind of counts. Sorta.

Makes sense. Don't sleep on Unexpectedly Absent It's the second 2 CMC removal after Assassin's Trophy imho WW is a bit awkward but you've got a ton of WW dudes in your deck.

I know you were just over sayin the opposite but I'd sure as heck try it before Abrupt Decay

I've played Unexpectedly Absent. It was never better than fine. I considered it a necessary evil back when we were allowed to tuck commanders. As soon as that rule changed I cut it from everything.

On the other hand, I run both Abrupt Decay and Despark in several decks, and have never been unhappy with either.

[Kitsune_18]

I've been toying around with both a Bant and Bant+black (there's just not enough red cards that I care to find slots for) version of the deck to keep the mana a bit more consistent and the deck more focused. I'm leaning toward the 4 color iteration and was curious to hear your collective thoughts on Eldrazi Displacer's place in a 3/4 color list. I would imagine in a 5 color deck it might be a challenge to include enough colorless sources to power it (Golos's tutor/ramp definitely helps get them into play, though). Is it worth it if it's consistently "turned on?" What did you add when you cut it? I realize Aminatou, the Fateshifter fills a similar role and do plan to include her in my list as well.

In other news, I'm so hyped for Burning-Rune Demon, card seems great.

[ZenN]

I've been toying around with both a Bant and Bant+black (there's just not enough red cards that I care to find slots for) version of the deck to keep the mana a bit more consistent and the deck more focused. I'm leaning toward the 4 color iteration and was curious to hear your collective thoughts on Eldrazi Displacer's place in a 3/4 color list. I would imagine in a 5 color deck it might be a challenge to include enough colorless sources to power it (Golos's tutor/ramp definitely helps get them into play, though). Is it worth it if it's consistently "turned on?" What did you add when you cut it? I realize Aminatou, the Fateshifter fills a similar role and do plan to include her in my list as well.

In other news, I'm so hyped for Burning-Rune Demon, card seems great.

Yeah, Burning-Rune Demon demon is super strong. I've tried to avoid double black or double red stuff, but it's only a matter of time until I include a few, I'm sure. Burning-Rune Demon would definitely be a solid one to play in this style of list, particular with a lot of recursion.

After spending some time with it, I objectively feel like even if you just want Bant+black, Golos is the way to go. You don't need colours to cast him, and you can get mana from his ability just off of stuff like Command Tower and the like if you want. To be fair, though, I've had basically no mana problems since switching to Golos. His land fetching definitely helps with that, and including a copy of the new The World Tree could make that even easier.

As for Eldrazi Displacer, I was already feeling like I didn't have enough colourless production to activate it as consistently and often as I wanted to, so I wasn't particularly sad to cut it with the move into 5c.

[pokken]

Yeah displacer is awkward even in my 2c list sometimes. I have a lot of sources with stuff like nykthos, nimbus maze, mystic gate, field, ancient tomb and Mana rocks and it can be difficult to get more than one source.

[Rumpy5897]

I wrote some more stuff into the updated OP. Toying with the idea of turning it into a full primer. Would love some thoughts on the things there currently.

As a completely unbiased member of the general public, I think you should go for it The slimmed down template means you can get away with not having to slog through the entirety of the old card options section, if you don't want to. And you've got a healthy community going on over here, for a popular archetype led by a popular guy.

[benjameenbear]

I've been toying around with both a Bant and Bant+black (there's just not enough red cards that I care to find slots for) version of the deck to keep the mana a bit more consistent and the deck more focused. I'm leaning toward the 4 color iteration and was curious to hear your collective thoughts on Eldrazi Displacer's place in a 3/4 color list. I would imagine in a 5 color deck it might be a challenge to include enough colorless sources to power it (Golos's tutor/ramp definitely helps get them into play, though). Is it worth it if it's consistently "turned on?" What did you add when you cut it? I realize Aminatou, the Fateshifter fills a similar role and do plan to include her in my list as well.

In other news, I'm so hyped for Burning-Rune Demon, card seems great.

I'm on a more Sultai + white list and I can confirm that Burning-Rune Demon is excellent. I play a very heavy recursion suite in my deck and it's been functionally similar to Intuition, as I expected. Great card that I heartily recommend. It makes me want to consider playing a slightly tweaked Reanimator-lite strategy in my own deck, but I'm very happy with how my current list is performing.

The more colors you add, the less effective Eldrazi Displacer becomes since the colorless mana is definitely a liability. I am trying to squeeze room for Emiel the Blessed in my deck (got a copy recently) to fill a similar role but not be dependent on colorless sources.

I totally forgot about Despark as a card. It hits everything that I want Beast Within to hit and I've wanted to get Spellseeker in the deck for a while. I've got a few changes I want to test out now...

[pokken]

Despark just makes zero sense to me as a good card. Like yeah sometimes you'll have targets for it, but just as often it'll rot in your hand while someone kills you with Altar of Dementia or Torpor Orb.

I'm guessing the fewer combos you run into the more value it has since combo enablers tend to be the Abrupt Decay targets.

I'd almost rather run Into the Roil or the like than despark or abrupt decay, but that could be colored by my tendency to see a lot of combos. I need my removal to get both Darksteel Forge (*SHAKESFIST*) and Torpor Orb and Rest in Peace and Collector Ouphe and Hushwing Gryff and Winota, Joiner of Forces and whatever comes my way (mostly).

Do I have a little Darksteel Forge scarring...yeah

[benjameenbear]

Given the texture of your meta, yeah, Despark doesn't make a ton of sense. For my personal playgroup, it's basically a 2 mana generic removal spell. I'm talking about a playgroup that has nearly 0 counterspells (I twitch when I type that...) and prefers to use damage based effects to win the game. Infinite combos get large frowns from the table, and I have other decks that are much more combo heavy.

It's one of the reasons that I slotted in Terror of the Peaks in my Golos list since apparently that's an "acceptable" way to kill people. Will I abuse the hell out of it via blink effects and force them to up their skill? Yes. Yes, I will.

I would say that your meta is definitely much higher-tier than my Golos list is built for @pokken. I've often considered increasing the threat level of my Golos deck to be cEDH adjacent, but I never get around to doing it. The inertia of good-enough I guess, lol.

[Rumpy5897]

It's interesting how Beast Withins, once the yardstick of solid versatile removal, have started feeling unwieldy in lists. I've been having trouble sequencing them in my Ghired. Seeing how you're bant primary, do you tend to assemble enough mountains to make Duergar Hedge-Mage come online? Could be possible, given your mana base. You could also just go for some more countermagic. I hear Fierce Guardianship is a good card

In unrelated matters, I'd probably run Tragic Arrogance over Mythos of Snapdax. True, it costs one mana more. However, 3WW feels easier than RBWW, and it also works if flipped off a Golos wheel.

[ZenN]

Honestly, Beast Within and Generous Gift are still very strong. I'm by no means unhappy with Beast Within in my current list, it just could be something else.

Mythos of Snapdax was previously Tragic Arrogance before I switched to Golos. You're right that it's worse off a Golos flip, but so far it being a mana cheaper has been relevant, while I haven't had an issue having the colours to cast it. I'm still trying it out, but it's entirely possible it'll swap back to Tragic Arrogance at some point, or possible Hour of Revelation. I'm already very heavily white anyway, and have other triple white spells that haven't been an issue.

Speaking of metas, I go through periods of playing a lot with randoms on Cockatrice (or at LGSs when that's actually an option), but I'm always aimed at the 7-8 or 75% tables, since it's closest to what my own group does. I've got the kind of the group where MLD isn't disallowed, but if you destroy all lands with no plan to win the game and want to just watch us stare at each other you're going to get hated out of the next 1-5 games. Combos are fine as long as they're not the primary focus of the deck and plan A for every game, and as long as it doesn't make the games boring or anti-climactic.

With all that said, in the decks I've played it in (in both commander AND oathbreaker) Despark has been very solid both in my group and with randoms. It exiles 90% of what I care enough about to use removal on at only 2 mana. Should it be the first removal choice with all these colour options? No. Is it a solid choice for removal piece 5+? Totally.

As a completely unbiased member of the general public, I think you should go for it The slimmed down template means you can get away with not having to slog through the entirety of the old card options section, if you don't want to. And you've got a healthy community going on over here, for a popular archetype led by a popular guy.

I appreciate the encouragement.
It's not the initial effort of writing a primer that deters me. I've done it multiple times before. I generally enjoy it. It's moreso the maintaining it over time. Particularly as I inevitably go through phases of barely playing and experience lost interest.

[Kitsune_18]

It's been quiet here! I've been having a bunch of fun and learning a LOT playing my 4 color version lately. One thing I've discovered is that, despite only being a 4 color version, this deck is HUNGREY for colored mana. My mana base is definitely not perfect but it's pretty darn close to as good as it's ever going to get (I only own the Bant ABU duals and I'm a little OCD when it comes to playing off-color fetches). I've found myself reconsidering some of my card choices because of the amount of pips in their mana cost though. Cards like Anguished Unmaking may become Beast Within/Generous Gift again, I'm even wondering if Knight of Autumn should become Reclamation Sage. I think Assassin's Trophy is sufficiently worth it over Path to Exile despite the mana requirement. I had swapped out Ice-Fang Coatl for Baleful Strix but now am considering reversing the switch because I find myself prioritizing having green mana over black early game and have ended up unable to play Strix on turn 2 when I could have played Coatl.

Some thoughts on new additions to my deck:

The World Tree has been great. Even coming into play tapped, it has the ability to fix your mana immediately, definitely something I didn't fully appreciate before testing.

Whoever said Spellseeker+Ephemerate was gas, wasn't kidding. Ephemerate has been amazing for me. I had been running Neoform as a value Spellseeker target to set up Archaeomancer loop/reanimation shenanigans, but cut it after I found myself going for Ephemerate over Neoform every time (doesn't hurt that it's also easier on mana). It's been especially nice with another new Kaldheim card I wasn't sure about at first: Glorious Protector. That card is amazing! I somehow missed the Foretell text way down at the bottom.

Risen Reef is a card I was skeptical of at first; I thought of it as just an over-costed Coiling Oracle. It's really proven itself over my last few games though. Cloning it/playing other elementals has been a factor enough times that it's become a fairly reliable engine in my mind. An interesting edge-case scenario I've found with Reef is if you miss a land drop and find a land off Reef, you don't have to put it into play tapped via the Reef's ability. You can let it go to hand and then play it untapped as your land for turn. Maybe that's obvious to anyone who's played with it, but I hadn't considered that interaction before.

Since I'm only running 4 colors and I prioritize including a fair amount of basic lands, I've opted to leave Field of the Dead out of the list, leaving more room for other utility lands like Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold both of which have been incredibly valuable targets for Golos. The ability to search up a sac outlet is great interaction with cards like Glorious Protector and Reveillark. Stronghold is just great inevitability, but occasionally can set up an amazing Golos activation.

Okay, rant over. I did have one question for the Golos players out there. Those of you who run Mirari's Wake, how has it been for you? Alright, maybe two questions: In your experience how is Villainous Wealth? I've thought about running Torment of Hailfire in its place as a big finisher that is also tutorable with Spellseeker.

[ZenN]

@Kitsune_18 Yes. Yes it has been quiet. Glad you're enjoying your modifications.

I'm not sure what your mana base looks like, but from the sounds of it (many basics, possibly too many colourless lands) I think you could probably improve upon it. One of the things when it comes to playing more colours is that you just don't get to play more than 1 or 2 colourless lands, realistically, if you want to be consistent, and you really need to be playing all the fetches with a high count of fetchable fixing (Triomes are great for that). I have had next to no mana issues with my current iteration, and I'm even running triple pip spells like Angel of Serenity and Cavalier of Dawn.

I haven't gotten around to trying out The World Tree, but I was pretty confident it would be a fantastic inclusion for any Golos deck, because exactly as you said, even with it coming in tapped, at 6+ lands it just immediately gives you perfect mana.

Even without Foretell, Glorious Protector is just an insane card. It has already won me several games in multiple formats. And lost me games when other people have played it, actually.

Mirari's Wake has been a long-time favourite card of mine. I used to run it in my old Jenara list, and at some point it got cut when making the deck leaner. As things have gotten a bit fatter again, which is easy to do with Golos and other quality of life staple improvements over the years, Wake felt like a fantastic inclusion again. If nothing else, if you have enough mana to activate Golos, Wake means you have enough to do it twice.

Villainous Wealth just straight up wins games. I'm not sure I've ever seen that spell resolve and not result in that player winning. I think my favourite was the time I Wealth'd someone for 12 and hit Obliterate + Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.

[Kitsune_18]

I typically haven't had issues playing any one given card in my hand with my mana base. Where I've run into problems is when I want to paly 2 or 3 cards on my turn but haven't had enough or the right combination of colored pips to do so. If there are opportunities to reduce my color requirements with little to no downside (i.e. Beast Within over Anguished Unmaking) I might try to do so.

As far as colorless lands, I currently run Volrath's Stronghold, Phyrexian Tower, and Ancient Tomb. I've got Strip Mine and Scavenger Grounds on my maybe list. For fetches, I'm running only the 6 strictly on-color fetches and a total of 11 fetchable dual lands, including Zagoth Triome and Indatha Triome. I've considered including Ketria Triome to help with Golos activations despite my deck not actually playing any red cards. I already have Command Tower, Mana Confluence, and The World Tree to enable that though. It really grates me to include off-color fetches unless I'm taking advantage of landfall but, because of my decently high basic land count (8-10) I was thinking I might try Prismatic Vista and/or Fabled Passage. I know they aren't as flexible in their fixing capabilities, but I'd feel better about them. :laugh:

I still have a good amount of card slots I'm not totally locked into, about 5-6 non-land and another 4+ land slots. I'll update my signature to include my list soon for reference.

[ZenN]

@Kitsune_18 Prismatic Vista is a great choice. Since its printing, I've run it in basically every deck I have with 6+ basics.

Also, just throwing it out there, but even if you're avoiding red cards, you're still playing a WUBRG commander now, so there are no off-colour fetches.

[Kitsune_18]

Not a lot of discussion here lately.

Are there any new cards from Strixhaven folks are excited about? There are clearly some new powerful removal options in Fracture, Vanishing Verse, and Baleful Mastery. Whether or not they edge out any of our current ones is questionable. Culling Ritual is definitely powerful but maybe more suited to a deck that can better take advantage of all that / (I guess you could cast Golos off of it). I've heard a lot of hype for Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands, but it's not really my cup of tea.

Personally I'm going to be finding a slot for Callous Bloodmage. Such a versatile little creature and the extra graveyard hate is always welcome. I'm also going to test Angel of the Ruins over Angel of Serenity for the added versatility of plainscycling and the slightly reduced .

Request to anyone still following this thread: I've been making a lot of cuts and changes to my deck and I actually find myself 2 cards short. I've got a list of potential includes, but I need help narrowing it down to 2. I'd love to get some feedback. I'm open to other suggestions, too. Just keep in my mind that I've self imposed the limitation of keeping my deck to 4 colors only (no red).

[benjameenbear]

I think you pointed out the main attractions for the set. I too like Callous Bloodmage and Angel of the Ruins as ETB options and I like that the Angel is a legit 2-for-1 and exiles the targets too.

Rushed Rebirth is probably going to be a sleeper hit from the set imo as it tutors any creature directly into play whenever ANY creature dies. It has to have a lower mana value of course, but that's totally fine in a creature-centric ETB list like Golos.

Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands is going to be a good card. It's just a good value card with little synergy to the overall strategy of the deck, but getting free copies of instants/sorceries is going to be underestimated.

Other than that, there isn't much from the set that stands out to me.

@Kitsune_18
From your maybe board, I'd recommend adding in Toxic Deluge and Kogla, the Titan Ape. I personally err on the side of more removal is better than less. You could also consider Noxious Gearhulk to pad your life total and supplement your removal suite. Otherwise, I think your list looks really solid.

[Kitsune_18]

@benjameenbear
Thanks for the suggestions! And I think you're right about Rushed Rebirth being a solid card and possibly the sleeper of the set. I almost mentioned it in my previous post, I hope once we're able to play more in person Magic some folks will have some experience/feedback to share on the card.

One other card that I didn't mention before but after thinking on it will probably test out is Beledros Witherbloom! It's another way to double up on Golos activations and is a good spell to hit with the activation too. The token generation is just gravy. It has some serious synergy with Resolute Archangel, blink effects, extra turns, etc. I had already been toying with the idea of adding Nyxbloom Ancient as a way to get multiple activations of Golos, but Witherbloom just seems more fun (if maybe not as powerful) overall.

[ZenN]

Beledros Witherbloom is a sweet card and is probably going into my Korvold, Fae-Cursed King deck, whenever I update that, but I'm not sure I'd want it here. The untap is strong, and yes it's nice to be able to just reset life with Resolute Archangel, but I'm wary of bumping the average CMC of the deck up too much. I don't want to get into a position where the deck only functions if I can activate Golos repeatedly.

Rushed Rebirth is potentially strong in the right deck. If nothing else, it's neat to hold up to use in response to a wrath, but I think I'd have a hard time choosing to run here that over Eldritch Evolution, or even Neoform which I'm not currently running.

Sadly, nothing from Strixhaven really jumped out at me as something I'd see myself putting in here, but I should probably give the set another once over to be sure.