Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[Zed117]

Oh man. Turn 1 Gravecrawler, Turn 2 Wayward Servant, Turn 3 Warren Soul Trader. That's a fun turn 3 win magical Christmas land.

[Nikerym]

MH3 seems to bring a few goodies to the deck, the newly spoiled Spymaster's Vault seems like an easy include.
Warren Soul Trader just seems broken in this deck.

[CyanideSuicide]

Hi all! I've been lurking for a while understanding card decisions and making some changes my varania. Couple of questions I have while learning to pilot what do you all typically tutor for with enlightened and vampiric/diabolic? Also, what are your thoughts on raise the palisade? Would love some thoughts on my list!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UCkUO--y2E6tHy2F43-z7w

[pzbw7z]

A sacrifice outlet with a mana burst and at least one two-card infinite built in? Yeah, I think I can find a slot for that - I think I must find a slot for that!. Warren Soultrader may be one of the best three-drops available to us - if and when it does become available.

[pokken]

Hi all! I've been lurking for a while understanding card decisions and making some changes my varania. Couple of questions I have while learning to pilot what do you all typically tutor for with enlightened and vampiric/diabolic? Also, what are your thoughts on raise the palisade? Would love some thoughts on my list!

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UCkUO--y2E6tHy2F43-z7w

Etutor for altars or kindred discovery
Vtutor for intuition or a combo piece or kindred
Mtutor for intuiton or a mass reanimation

[yeti1069]

Any of you folks have a budget version of Varina?

There's a weekly league that I am considering with a $150 budget cap. I was thinking Yuriko, but then thought Varina could probably get under that cap without giving up too much of the game plan. The biggest pain is losing a lot of untapped fixing, which means the deck is a little slower. Otherwise, it seems like it should be doable, and I like the idea of having multiple fronts to attack on (aggro, combo, aristocrats, mass reanimation quasi-combo).

[pokken]

Any of you folks have a budget version of Varina?

There's a weekly league that I am considering with a $150 budget cap. I was thinking Yuriko, but then thought Varina could probably get under that cap without giving up too much of the game plan. The biggest pain is losing a lot of untapped fixing, which means the deck is a little slower. Otherwise, it seems like it should be doable, and I like the idea of having multiple fronts to attack on (aggro, combo, aristocrats, mass reanimation quasi-combo).

The altars are so expensive. Some of the zombie lords are
Super expensive too. I don't think I could be arsed to play 3 colors in a budget league. Mono white and mono blue utterly dominate on a budget. Sweepers are all cheap and so are most counters.

Baral is basically unbeatable. Just do some kind of stupid turnabout combo.

[Reya]

Amazing we got a creature version of Phyrexian Altar with no downside for a Varina deck. MH3 will be crazy.

[yeti1069]

Any of you folks have a budget version of Varina?

There's a weekly league that I am considering with a $150 budget cap. I was thinking Yuriko, but then thought Varina could probably get under that cap without giving up too much of the game plan. The biggest pain is losing a lot of untapped fixing, which means the deck is a little slower. Otherwise, it seems like it should be doable, and I like the idea of having multiple fronts to attack on (aggro, combo, aristocrats, mass reanimation quasi-combo).

The altars are so expensive. Some of the zombie lords are
Super expensive too. I don't think I could be arsed to play 3 colors in a budget league. Mono white and mono blue utterly dominate on a budget. Sweepers are all cheap and so are most counters.

Baral is basically unbeatable. Just do some kind of stupid turnabout combo.

The land is a little rough, but doesn't look too bad in this first draft just editing off my existing deck somewhat: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/BpoC7xBO2EKyghmhu6-8fw
Can certainly include several combos. Ashnod's is only $5.

[pokken]

The land is a little rough, but doesn't look too bad in this first draft just editing off my existing deck somewhat: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/BpoC7xBO2EKyghmhu6-8fw
Can certainly include several combos. Ashnod's is only $5.

That looks massively rough and I don't like your chances of hitting Varina on turn 4 with that manabase or with 34 lands and 5 rocks. Skullclamp will almost surely outperform Land Tax on a $$$ basis.

I think the approach I would take would be to go massively deep on Coastal Piracy effects. The plan of make a bunch of dudes and draw a bajillion cards with combat damage is a pretty reliable budget gameplan.

The Haakon, Stromgald Scourge Universal Automaton combo is very efficient and adds tons of resiliency -- and enables an easy path to victory with Buried Alive if you are so inclined (though that has gotten to be a little $$$) now. also Liliana's Standard Bearer is savage with haakon (or even without a lot of times).

If you're gonna stick to that land count I'd probably try to get a few Epiphany at the Drownyard and Frantic Search effects <4 mana to help you hit lands. Chart a Course is pretty solid as well as cheap early game glue with your count of 1 drops.


YMMV etc, but like I said I would never play 3 colors in budget :D an actual budget league needs to have an exception for lands that just make mana and no more than 1 total (e.g. no Gaea's Cradle ) or it brutally penalizeshigh color decks.

[plaganegra]

Anyone want to discuss a couple other relevant spoilers?
Links to spoilers in bulleted list below:

• Warren Soultrader (obvious staple is obvious)
• Spymaster's Vault (New connive utility land)
• Ripples of Undeath (Black Sylvan Library)
• Chthonian Nightmare (Fixed Recurring Nightmare)
• Final Act (New black boardwipe)

I see Chthonian Nightmare as a re-usable reanimate in this deck. Since there is so much to sacrifice and almost all of my zombies are cmc <3 it can get anything I want. It is super easy to get Gary with it too by casting it twice (you can even get a 1cmc creature on the first sac). Just a great value engine in this commander deck. Snapcaster Mage would be a good target among all the combo pieces and utility zombies. I haven't looked yet to see if there are any other relevant energy cards to play with it because it's not necessary. This is self-contained which is why I love it and can't wait to try it out in most of my decks that use black, especially Varina and Yawgmoth.

Ripples of Undeath is probably a better version of Sylvan Library in Varina. This lets you mill 3 cards a turn and only costs 2 mana. Being able to get back one of those cards for 3 life and 1 mana is amazing. The downside is that everyone get's to see what you get back. Having this additional source of card advantage helps manage Varina's looting ability by adding a card to your hand on curve, and it also helps you hit free auto-recursion zombies if you have a high density of them in your deck like I do. What is not to love about this card?

Warren Soultrader is just broken in Varina. I don't need to belabor the point. It's obvious.

Final Act is an interesting catchall black boardwipe similar to Farewell. I probably won't add it to my deck, but it's in the very large pile of cards I would consider when changing up my list. I think I prefer Farewell, but they are different.

Did I miss anything else juicy?

[pokken]

Anyone want to discuss a couple other relevant spoilers?
Links to spoilers in bulleted list below:

• Warren Soultrader (obvious staple is obvious)
• Spymaster's Vault (New connive utility land)
• Ripples of Undeath (Black Sylvan Library)
• Chthonian Nightmare (Fixed Recurring Nightmare)
• Final Act (New black boardwipe)

I see Chthonian Nightmare as a re-usable reanimate in this deck. Since there is so much to sacrifice and almost all of my zombies are cmc <3 it can get anything I want. It is super easy to get Gary with it too by casting it twice (you can even get a 1cmc creature on the first sac). Just a great value engine in this commander deck. Snapcaster Mage would be a good target among all the combo pieces and utility zombies. I haven't looked yet to see if there are any other relevant energy cards to play with it because it's not necessary. This is self-contained which is why I love it and can't wait to try it out in most of my decks that use black, especially Varina and Yawgmoth.

Ripples of Undeath is probably a better version of Sylvan Library in Varina. This lets you mill 3 cards a turn and only costs 2 mana. Being able to get back one of those cards for 3 life and 1 mana is amazing. The downside is that everyone get's to see what you get back. Having this additional source of card advantage helps manage Varina's looting ability by adding a card to your hand on curve, and it also helps you hit free auto-recursion zombies if you have a high density of them in your deck like I do. What is not to love about this card?

Warren Soultrader is just broken in Varina. I don't need to belabor the point. It's obvious.

Final Act is an interesting catchall black boardwipe similar to Farewell. I probably won't add it to my deck, but it's in the very large pile of cards I would consider when changing up my list. I think I prefer Farewell, but they are different.

Did I miss anything else juicy?

- sac outlet guy autoinclude slam dunk even for non-combo decks (i swap it in for Phyrexian Ghoul or Nantuko Husk probly)
- Vault feels very good if you are not on coffers (believe I cut it) - i'll likely slot it in. lots of value off conniving in this deck and it helps you hit land 4 too.
- Ripples of undeath I think is bad. the mana cost is too much. significantly likely to underperform Night's Whisper so gets a hard pass for me I think.
- Cthonian Nightmare feels...fine I guess. Not being able to get either Varina, Lich Queen or Gray Merchant of Asphodel back makes it a hard pass for me.
- final act seems horrible. this deck can actually play Farewell pretty favorably (do artifacts, enchantments and creatures while our stuff is all in the bin, then mass reanimate) but this card...doesn't exile and doesn't kill the most important cards in commander (artifacts and enchantments). and we rarely want to do anything to anybody's graveyard.

For me it's basically vault and the new autoinclude guy :D Other cards are too narrow/inefficient/cutesy

[plaganegra]

@pokken

We agree on Final Act, I just thought it was worth mentioning in general. Spymaster's Vault does seem very strong to me as well. I wonder what the other colors will get if this is a cycle. Also, eagerly awaiting the black free spell for Varina. The white and blue one's are very strong but not in this deck.

You can easily get back Gary with Chthonian Nightmare on its second cast by storing the energy. In my deck it gets back every combo piece except Gary and the Archaeomancer zombie. I think this one is a lot better than you might think. It's definitely highly playable here, but might not be the best in slot for every deck where it probably competes with dread return.

Ripples of Undeath too - highly playable and synergistic. How is it too much mana? 2 to cast, and 1 to draw? Mill 3 every turn for free. Pretty cheap if you ask me. If you are making the most competitive version of the deck it likely misses the cut, but otherwise this is another great tool to add to the list of great tools Varina pilots can run. Not triggering the turn it comes down is the main drawback I can see, but its cheap enough that it doesn't phase me too much. If it was 3cmc I would hard pass, too much mana investment to not get value immediately, especially since I want to cast Varina on T3. It does help you get Land 3-4 also, which is something I know you are a fan of digging for to increase deck consistency. I'll probably cut otherworldly gaze to test it initially. Maybe something else, because I really like gaze in the deck for digging deep.

[pokken]

Ripples of Undeath too - highly playable and synergistic. How is it too much mana? 2 to cast, and 1 to draw? Mill 3 every turn for free.

Think hard about what percentage of the time this is worse than Night's Whisper -- it's like..almost always. We just have way better options to be playing. Hell, it's worse than Strategic Planning a very high percentage of the time :D

I would consider playing the card if it did not continue to cost 1 mana every time you use it I think, but that cost adds up. Varina is a lean deck with at tight curve by nature because of the way the mana flows.

As a side note, I've written this before but my opinion on card advantage in Varina is that you should not play many cards in Varina that do not get you cards *right now* (at least in many situations). Varina wants Fact or Fiction not Rhystic Study or Phyrexian Arena.

Kindred Discovery and Land Tax get passes for being *massive* amounts of card advantage (and Discovery very often will draw now because of the attack trigger).

Varina is just not a "play this spell and accumulate slow card advantage" kinda deck in most builds.

(I'm not going to side trek too hard into my hate for Rhystic Study but suffice it to say if you are winning with this card in non-CEDH pods you're basically counting on your opponents to play badly and that's not a great way to go through life. Painful Truths is much better in non-control shells)

[yeti1069]

@pokken

You can easily get back Gary with Chthonian Nightmare on its second cast by storing the energy. In my deck it gets back every combo piece except Gary and the Archaeomancer zombie. I think this one is a lot better than you might think. It's definitely highly playable here, but might not be the best in slot for every deck where it probably competes with dread return.

Ripples of Undeath too - highly playable and synergistic. How is it too much mana? 2 to cast, and 1 to draw? Mill 3 every turn for free. Pretty cheap if you ask me. If you are making the most competitive version of the deck it likely misses the cut, but otherwise this is another great tool to add to the list of great tools Varina pilots can run. Not triggering the turn it comes down is the main drawback I can see, but its cheap enough that it doesn't phase me too much. If it was 3cmc I would hard pass, too much mana investment to not get value immediately, especially since I want to cast Varina on T3. It does help you get Land 3-4 also, which is something I know you are a fan of digging for to increase deck consistency. I'll probably cut otherworldly gaze to test it initially. Maybe something else, because I really like gaze in the deck for digging deep.

I think Chthonian will take some play testing to see how many games you're casting it 2+ times, and how often you're doing so for less than 3 (to store energy). Looks very solid in any case.

Ripples looks pretty underwhelming to me. I don't want a tax on my mana every turn to draw a card. Filling the yard indiscriminately can have its uses, but can also be a detriment. If you play this on turn 2, you can't play a 3-drop on 3, and can't play Varina on 4 and still 'draw' cards. You could play Phyrexian Arena on 3, draw an extra card and play Varina on 4, and you're probably in a better overall position barring an early mass reanimate with juicy targets from the mill.

[yeti1069]

Saw a pic of the Flare somewhere. It was a Soul Shatter effect.

[yeti1069]

Anyone want to discuss a couple other relevant spoilers?
Links to spoilers in bulleted list below:

• [url=

Woah! I totally overlooked this being a zombie (and a wizard!?)!!! This is going in a lot of decks.

(I'm not going to side trek too hard into my hate for Rhystic Study but suffice it to say if you are winning with this card in non-CEDH pods you're basically counting on your opponents to play badly and that's not a great way to go through life. Painful Truths is much better in non-control shells)

First, almost no one plays "well" if by "badly" you mean playing their spells and never paying for Rhystic. I've found that in better pods, it has a tendency to draw 2-3 cards in the turn cycle if played on curve, then typically 1-2 cards each cycle thereafter until it gets removed. In pods with actually bad players, yeah, it goes nuts.

Generally, if it draws 3 cards, it feels like it was worth the mana. It's not like you're casting Painful Truths on turn 3 and benefiting from the cards you've drawn. In fact, if cast on curve t3, you probably go up to 8 and have to discard. Not terrible here, but also not necessarily a benefit. Rhystic, meanwhile, won't force a discard the turn you cast it (probably), and will often give you as many cards on t4 as Painful Truths. Drawn later, Truths is a better top deck if you need resources, and in Varina, specifically, upping hand size before combat is valuable, even if you can't use any of the cards you've drawn.

In 2-color decks (like my Captain N'ghathrod), PT isn't an option, and there aren't equivalent 3 for 3 options. There, Rhystic is almost always my first tutor target. You can say players are playing "badly" when they don't pay for Rhystic, but if the alternative is that they all set themselves back by not developing their game plan in order to afford the tax, then Rhystic is a stax piece impeding their development. It's a win either way, If I tutored for Rhystic, I want to draw 4 cards off of it before it gets removed--that's probably 90% of the time--but if it seriously hampers their development, drawing fewer cards may be worth the cost anyway. Now, sure, some times your opponents will have either enough mana to easily pay the tax, or have alternatives to their preferred development plan that continue to push them forward sufficiently while paying the tax, but that's very rare early in the game in my experience.

[toctheyounger]

@yeti1069 for what its worth Liliana, Untouched by Death has been reprinted enough to not be expensive anymore. I think the potential of a budget build is there, but there are going to be issues with landbases. Empty the Laboratory seems a good way to make sure you're hitting the creatures you need, but otherwise most of the stuff we use are kind of within budget.

@plaganegra I think the only real autos here are the altar on a zombie and perhaps the land here. I think black farewell is pretty average, zombie library is too close to Sylvan and not close enough to Rhystic. I do like Chthonian Nightmare a lot, but I'm not sure it does enough here. I'd like to goldfish a little on it, and I'll definitely be picking up a copy to try out for a few decks anyway, so it might be worth it here, might not. Honestly, the biggest issue with it is only being able to activate at sorcery speed. It could do things, maybe, but I don't see anything real combo potential with it here, so it's just going to be for value.

[pzbw7z]

Chthonian Nightmare might do some work with Shambling Ghast with a cost reducer. It's too bad there isn't a Zombie Baral, Chief of Compliance.

It might be a thing in some other Dimir-plus deck.

[plaganegra]

Hey @toctheyounger Re: Chthonian Nightmare.

Hear me out - would you want to have an animate dead with buyback: sacrifice a creature? If not, that's cool. I want that though!

It doesn't need to be instant speed to be good. If it had that, it would be banned a la recurring nightmare. You can use it multiple times in one turn. It's very adaptable. If you are getting a 3cmc zombie you could even call it ramp! If you aren't then the leftover energy can be banked to grab Gary for next cast.

I run only 3-4 creatures that it wouldn't be able to get off of one cast (>3 cmc). I am sure that most players have few above 3cmc also. Lately I have only been running two mass reanimate effects in my deck. It's felt fine most of the time, but I miss the third option. I think Nightmare will fill in that gap nicely.

@pokken why are you comparing ripples to nights whisper? To me these are completely different cards filling different roles. If you are trying to strictly draw to hand than this card is not for you. If you want to see 3 extra cards a turn and fill your GY with the option to add to your hand - then you might want Ripples of Undeath. The cards you mentioned are not reasonably comparable in any way imo. I need more of an explanation I guess - perhaps I am missing something.

Regarding "draw philosophy" I care less about volume of draw and more about quality of draw. I would choose to see three and draw one over drawing two in most situations. I also consider adding a useful card (zombie, flashback spell, etc) to my grave as card advantage. So ripples has a lot more value from my perspective.

That extra 1 mana could be the killer though, after thinking more on that I can see the turnoff there. Doesnt kill it for me though, depends on how much I like the self milling. I think I would add even more emphasis on recursion if I were to add Ripples. Maxing out auto reanimators, flashback, GY matters cards.

I also use the Varina secondary ability to create tokens quite aggressively with extra mana. That can eat up a lot of cards quickly especially on Agadeem.

[pokken]

why are you comparing ripples to nights whisper? To me these are completely different cards filling different roles. If you are trying to strictly draw to hand than this card is not for you. If you want to see 3 extra cards a turn and fill your GY with the option to add to your hand - then you might want Ripples of Undeath. The cards you mentioned are not reasonably comparable in any way imo. I need more of an explanation I guess - perhaps I am missing something.

If you think about 2 cmc effects that eventually put some cards in your hand and/or graveyard, it's always worth comparing them to a benchmark effect I think. So think about the scenarios in which you see the card and then imagine it's Night's Whisper and see when it's better. The ultimate goal of both cards is roughly the same: get access to cards that move your gameplan forward

Ripples is better than Night's Whisper exactly when:
- you cast it on curve on turn 2 (or maybe 3)
- your curve allows you to pay the 1 and 3 life at least once
- it survives 2+ turns (even that is arguable since by then you've spent 2BB to get 2 cards, theoretically, which is...still not great)

On later turns, say 5 or 6, the odds are so likely that the game is getting close to over that getting cards during your turn is going to outperform milling subsequent turns.

You can compare it to Mesmeric Orb or Altar of Dementia as a mill effect (I'm sure there are more) where it's embarrassingly outclassed, but because it can help you hit land drops on curve it is I think best compared to Night's Whisper or Strategic Planning.

I think this might be my peculiarity but I tend to like comparing effects to benchmark generic effects; if you're ramping on 2 I'll think about Rampant Growth and how that compares and what the respective ceiling/floors are at different stages of the game, as an example.

There are many axes of comparison for this card though; the other obvious alternative is that you play a 2 cmc zombie in that slot, and you can do the thought exercise the same way.

I would choose to see three and draw one over drawing two in most situations. I also consider adding a useful card (zombie, flashback spell, etc) to my grave as card advantage.

I think that this is generally incorrect even in Varina; Night's Whisper is a LOT better than Strategic Planning. Extra spells/cards in your bin are card advantage for sure, but you can fill your graveyard with good effects like, say Varina, Lich Queen - who seriously benefits from a larger hand size (as evidenced by us all playing Land Tax)


--

I think the bottom line for me on this card is the mana cost. Without the mana cost for the draw, the upside overrides the downsides and it's really worth considering. It does a lot of things -- filling your bin AND helping you hit land drops is a hard find on a single card. The life loss is also not trivial.

[yeti1069]

Regarding "draw philosophy" I care less about volume of draw and more about quality of draw. I would choose to see three and draw one over drawing two in most situations. I also consider adding a useful card (zombie, flashback spell, etc) to my grave as card advantage.

Varina provides that quality of selection. If you have more cards in hand, you have more cards to pitch so you can keep more valuable cards in hand. You get to put whatever you want into your yard from your hand or top of your library turn after turn. You don't need to pay mana each turn for the "privilege."

[pzbw7z]

Chthonian Nightmare might do some work with Shambling Ghast with a cost reducer. It's too bad there isn't a Zombie Baral, Chief of Compliance.

It might be a thing in some other Dimir-plus deck.

This would also work with an effect like Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty.

[ElTuberias]

Chthonian Nightmare might do some work with Shambling Ghast with a cost reducer. It's too bad there isn't a Zombie Baral, Chief of Compliance.

It might be a thing in some other Dimir-plus deck.

This would also work with an effect like Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty.

Chthonian Nightmare can combo with Shambling Ghast and Carnival of Souls, although you loose life in the process.

[pzbw7z]

Chthonian Nightmare can combo with Shambling Ghast and Carnival of Souls, although you loose life in the process.

Alright, well done! Mono-B. No more excuses!

This can just kill the table via Wayward Servant or it can accumulate energy to return something else, say Gray Merchant of Asphodel or some other haymaker.

I'm probably not going out of my way to try it, but if a copy of Chthonian Nightmare falls into my lap, I might give it a go. It probably won't happen since the pre-release is reportedly going to cost $55US.