Help for a Kroxa-centric deck

[Dragoon]

Hello all,

I tend to build rather slow (and sometimes silly) decks in my meta and I wanted to shake things up when I saw Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger. I want to build a silly but fast deck all about making my opponents discard cards by playing Kroxa over and over again. It would be even better if it was, in fact, the only card that makes my opponents discard and the rest of the deck is built entirely around it but that would probably be a bit too extreme.

The main goal of the deck would be to play Kroxa on turn 2, then maybe on turn 3 (depending on my hand), then again on turn 4, and so on, trying to put as much pressure as possible on my opponents. So I'll probably need to pay as much attention as possible to the curve.

But I feel like I'm no good in building those types of decks so here I am, looking for some help. Here's what I've got so far :

What we could play on turn 1:

• Sol Ring is an obvious choice, it will let us recast Kroxa on turns 3 and 4, all by itself and the normal land drops.
• Chrome Mox let us play Kroxa on turn 1.
• Vampiric Tutor can go fetch what is missing in our opening hand.
• Dark Ritual could allow us to set up some synergy even before the first casting of Kroxa (Megrim-style cards, Waste Not and such).
• Bloodchief Ascension might be worthwhile, but I don't know how much time it will take to get the three counters.
• Quest for the Nihil Stone seems good but might be a bit too restrictive as it only affects opponents that don't have any card left in hand.
• Shrieking Affliction triggers a little bit more easily than Quest for the Nihil Stone, but deals less damage.
• Tortured Existence probably needs to be considered but I don't know how many creatures will end up in the deck.
• Sensei's Divining Top is an all-star but I don't know if we'll have the luxury of paying 1 for that kind of effect if we plan to do lots of stuff early game
• Nihil Spellbomb might be useful, as we'll probably need a bit more graveyard hate than usual
• Relic of Progenitus can also be considered but exiling our own graveyard might be a problem for the mid to late game and the escape ability of Kroxa.
• Soul-Guide Lantern is also another strong option for graveyard removal.

As for turn 2, there isn't really anything that I would play over Kroxa, except Sundial of the Infinite and maybe Waste Not.

During turn 3, we could either ramp, set up some synergy pieces or reanimate Kroxa:

• Ramp:
  • Nothing specific comes to mind, we could play the usual Commander's Sphere, Darksteel Ingot and such. Unstable Obelisk might be worthwhile to deal with enchantments later.
• Synergy:
  • Abyssal Nocturnus, Megrim, Liliana's Caress, Waste Not, Wheel of Torture and Words of Waste are the only good candidates that I've found.
  • EDIT: After looking at KitsuLeif's decklist, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage, Hellfire Mongrel and Paupers' Cage are also good choices
• Reanimation:
  • Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead and Necromancy look like the best candidates since they will also allow us to reanimate creatures our opponents might have discarded.
  • Unearth and Claim // Fame might be worthwhile but they only work for our graveyard.
• Phyrexian Reclamation can let us recast Kroxa for cheaper on turn 4.
• Phyrexian Arena and Necropotence might be worthwhile, but I don't know if they are really useful in faster decks, compared to stuff like Read the Bones or Night's Whisper.

On turn 4, we'll cast Kroxa again unless we have Erratic Portal in hand.

Starting on turn 5, we would probably need:

• Some support cards to deal with what has already been played by our opponents
• Draw spells to replenish our hand
• Some engines that will allow us to cast Kroxa at least once each turn. Possible plays includes Palace Siege, Corpse Dance and Altar of Dementia (for enabling escape). Volrath's Stronghold also seems like a shoe-in.
• More powerful synergy with cards like Geth's Grimoire, maybe Sangromancer.

What do you think? Does this deck idea seems at least semi-viable? What you would add? What would you cut? How many cards should I have for each spot on the mana curve?

[KitsuLeif]

You might want to take a look at what I'm building with Kroxa at the moment.
I'm going a 12-Rack route, with a lot of reanimation so that I don't have to pay Kroxa's commander taxes or have to use his escape ability. And yeah, 12 The Rack effects that synergize well with the discard.

[Dragoon]

You might want to take a look at what I'm building with Kroxa at the moment.
I'm going a 12-Rack route, with a lot of reanimation so that I don't have to pay Kroxa's commander taxes or have to use his escape ability. And yeah, 12 The Rack effects that synergize well with the discard.

Thanks, that will be helpful! What is your experience with those Rack effects? Are they active most of the time? I'm a bit afraid my opponents will still manage to have 2 or so cards in hand and bypass most of those effects... I'm mostly counting on the discard and synergies in the deck since I don't like infinite combos.

[KitsuLeif]

The cards for the deck just arrived today, so unfortunately I haven't had time to playtest it yet. Hopefully I'll be able to test it in about 1 or 2 weeks. And maybe I will have the other cards that I still want to get for my list as well at that time.
Lifeline should be awesome, because in a single turn rotation with 4 players and Kroxa dying every time, your opponents discard at least 4 cards.

[Dragoon]

Lifeline should be awesome, because in a single turn rotation with 4 players and Kroxa dying every time, your opponents discard at least 4 cards.

That sounds awesome indeed. Just be aware of the symmetric nature of Lifeline, it's a double-edged sword. I'd be happy to hear about how well the deck performed once you get a chance to play it.

[Segrus]

Just a random thought, but maybe Ill-Gotten Gains? I use it in my somewhat casual mono-Black control deck to cancel out anybody's heavy draw turns. It does have a drawback by giving somebody access to removal, but if someone gets out of line with a big draw X or something this brings them back down to size.

[Dragoon]

Just a random thought, but maybe Ill-Gotten Gains? I use it in my somewhat casual mono-Black control deck to cancel out anybody's heavy draw turns. It does have a drawback by giving somebody access to removal, but if someone gets out of line with a big draw X or something this brings them back down to size.

Hmm, I'm not sure. It affects everybody, and for players that have less than four or five cards in hand, it's probably helping them. It'll be nice with a Leyline of the Void but I don't think we have access to many cards of this type in B/R. Maybe Sire of Insanity would help keep those heavy draw players in check while not helping the others?
EDIT: What about Memory Jar? If activated during our turn, they shouldn't be able to use most of the cards while we could play a good chunk of it since our curve should be rather low, does it seem like a good idea?

[KitsuLeif]

Memory Jar is a nice addition indeed. What are your thoughts about Uba Mask? Your opponents won't have cards in hand after a while, so your Rack effects should trigger consistently.

[Dragoon]

Memory Jar is a nice addition indeed. What are your thoughts about Uba Mask? Your opponents won't have cards in hand after a while, so your Rack effects should trigger consistently.

Hmm, it will reinforce Rack effects while simultaneously weaken Megrim-style cards. It strikes me as a stax tool first, but I guess it can work if we end up being more "proactive" than "reactive".
If we go for a more "proactive" approach (less instant speed plays), I guess Merciless Executioner, Fleshbag Marauder and Plaguecrafter could be useful, especially if we play lots of reanimation. If we're light on creatures, Tainted Aether, Lethal Vapors and Spreading Plague might be good additions.

[KitsuLeif]

I wouldn't want to play Megrim-effects in this deck, because at some point no one will have cards in hand to discard anymore. Opponents will play cards they draw immediately so they aren't discarded, so Megrim becomes a dead card.

[Dragoon]

I wouldn't want to play Megrim-effects in this deck, because at some point no one will have cards in hand to discard anymore. Opponents will play cards they draw immediately so they aren't discarded, so Megrim becomes a dead card.

Yes, but I can see the other way around: if you don't put enough pressure, some of your opponents might still have at least 2 cards in hand and all your rack effects become useless. I might be wrong obviously but instead of going up to 12 Rack effects, I'll probably substitute two or three of them for Megrim-effects, that give me a bit more leeway. I guess the only way we'll deal with that question will be through playtesting though.

[Dunharrow]

Ya if you want to play Megrim and friends then you need to play effects that make everyone draw cards - Master of the Feast, Howling Mine, Temple Bell.

[Dragoon]

Ya if you want to play Megrim and friends then you need to play effects that make everyone draw cards - Master of the Feast, Howling Mine, Temple Bell.

I was thinking of Rankle, Master of Pranks, Anvil of Bogardan and Geier Reach Sanitarium as those won't weaken our Rack effects.

[worldsaverinc]

You can also play wheel effects and Commander has a lot of draw effects so megrim might not be a completely dead card.

[Dragoon]

You can also play wheel effects and Commander has a lot of draw effects so megrim might not be a completely dead card.

Hmm, how many of those wheel effects should I play? Memory Jar striked me as one of the best options since the players don't get to keep the cards. For other wheels, it will depend on how fast I can make them discard, I guess. Since Kroxa is the main discard engine of the deck, "not too fast" will probably be the answer.
On another note, there's always a few players in my playgroup that enjoy drawing cards and having options. That's why, since I don't want to rely on infinite combos as Plan B, I was thinking of mixing Rack effects with Megrim effects (that and I also just love Waste Not).

EDIT: Painful Quandary seems like a shoe-in in this deck! If they're in topdeck mode and cast their only card, they have to lose 5 life. Otherwise, they'll discard another card, which both triggers Megrim effects and bring them closer to The Rack effects range.

[Segrus]

Hmm, I'm not sure. It affects everybody, and for players that have less than four or five cards in hand, it's probably helping them. It'll be nice with a Leyline of the Void but I don't think we have access to many cards of this type in B/R. Maybe Sire of Insanity would help keep those heavy draw players in check while not helping the others?
EDIT: What about Memory Jar? If activated during our turn, they shouldn't be able to use most of the cards while we could play a good chunk of it since our curve should be rather low, does it seem like a good idea?

Honestly, I'd play Ill-Gotten Gains more as a way to fill in effect density before relying on it as your primary strategy. As in if you need more of that type of effect--getting opponents back down to a low card count--the card is monetarily cheap right now for its effect. Sire of Insanity would be a strong card to play with what you're doing in this deck. Same for Memory Jar--another really good card. One last thing about Ill-Gotten Gains that shouldn't be forgotten: everybody knows what everybody else has picked up. I've pulled the hate away from myself a few times when somebody has the appearance of being a big threat due to what they return.

A semi-good wheel effect you *could* play is Dark Deal since it reduces hand size, if you decide to build that direction.

[Dragoon]

Honestly, I'd play Ill-Gotten Gains more as a way to fill in effect density before relying on it as your primary strategy. As in if you need more of that type of effect--getting opponents back down to a low card count--the card is monetarily cheap right now for its effect.

That's a good point. The card can help recur some key pieces along with Kroxa, while also triggering Megrim effects and giving them fuel for the next turn. Three cards is also still close to the range of The Rack effects so it might help, or at least not hinder, those effects. If our curve is low enough, we might also empty our hand quickly and Ill-Gotten Gains can even turn into a draw spell (although I'm not counting on that too much).

One last thing about Ill-Gotten Gains that shouldn't be forgotten: everybody knows what everybody else has picked up. I've pulled the hate away from myself a few times when somebody has the appearance of being a big threat due to what they return.

I'm not too convinced on that point. If someone suddenly becomes the threat due to Ill-Gotten Gains, I might also be seen as the guy who gave back their toys to that player and get some flak for it.

Anyway, I'll probably try it! Thanks for the advice!

[KitsuLeif]

Dark Deal is also pretty awesome with Uba Mask, so maybe it's a budget option to Memory Jar.
Another card, I consider for my list is Liliana, Heretical Healer // Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, to have a second Lifeline effect but with an upside.
Also, maybe Smallpox and Pox?
Call to the Netherworld seems fun if I can trigger its Madness.

[Dragoon]

Dark Deal is also pretty awesome with Uba Mask, so maybe it's a budget option to Memory Jar.

Memory Jar would fit in my budget, do you think running both would be a good idea? I'm a bit hesitant to run Dark Deal, since it's just card disadvantage if I don't have synergy pieces on the board.

Another card, I consider for my list is Liliana, Heretical Healer // Liliana, Defiant Necromancer, to have a second Lifeline effect but with an upside.

I hadn't thought of this version of her. I don't plan on playing lots of creatures though, and her trigger won't apply if I put Kroxa in the command zone. It's sad that her -X can't bring Kroxa back, otherwise I won't hesitate at all. Her ultimate sure sounds nice but I can't count on it too much if my creature count ends up too low and I can't easily protect her.
I guess I'll need to see how many creatures I'll end up playing before taking a decision. Thanks for the suggestion!

Also, maybe Smallpox and Pox?

Hmm, I hadn't thought of those. They are a bit frowned upon in my playgroup but I guess it makes sense in this type of deck. I'm a bit afraid of losing lands though, since I don't plan to play much ramp if our curve is low enough. Am I fretting over it too much?

Call to the Netherworld seems fun if I can trigger its Madness.

Yeah, I came across this one but I'm not convinced. It's just a mere variant of Raise Dead with a very minor upside unless you really up the number of cards that make everyone discard, and even then it's not that powerful. I think I'd play Phyrexian Reclamation and Palace Siege over it, since they are reusable.

Speaking of reusable reanimation engine, what do you think of Coffin Queen? Too slow? It looks like a solid turn 3.

[KitsuLeif]

Memory Jar would fit in my budget, do you think running both would be a good idea? I'm a bit hesitant to run Dark Deal, since it's just card disadvantage if I don't have synergy pieces on the board.

I'll run Deal instead of Jar, because of budget reasons. Also, I think Jar is a little overcosted. You don't want to activate it turn 5 when you just played it, so it is either a dead card in your hand or it gets removed in the turn cycle. Neither is fun. Ideally, my hand will be empty most of the time, or, should be empty for some shenanigans with Hollowborn Barghest, so Dark Deal doesn't really harm me.

I hadn't thought of this version of her. I don't plan on playing lots of creatures though, and her trigger won't apply if I put Kroxa in the command zone. It's sad that her -X can't bring Kroxa back, otherwise I won't hesitate at all. Her ultimate sure sounds nice but I can't count on it too much if my creature count ends up too low and I can't easily protect her.
I guess I'll need to see how many creatures I'll end up playing before taking a decision. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'll play her, because I go the reanimator route with Kroxa, so I won't let him go to the Command Zone a lot of times that he dies. So Lili will flip pretty consistently. Like, turn 4 Lili and a 1 mana reanimation spell like Claim doesn't sound too bad, for getting a Zombie token and letting each opponent discard 2 cards and you discard 1 yourself.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of those. They are a bit frowned upon in my playgroup but I guess it makes sense in this type of deck. I'm a bit afraid of losing lands though, since I don't plan to play much ramp if our curve is low enough. Am I fretting over it too much?

In my final version I will play 35 lands, but I plan to play Pox and Smallpox. I can always reshuffle my graveyard into the library if I discard/mill or lose my Eldrazi titans. And if I let Kroxa escape I can kinda manipulate how big my library gets after reshuffling, so the land/nonland-ratio will shift at my will. I will at least test Pox/Smallpox, because they act as a boardwipe, discard and setback.

Yeah, I came across this one but I'm not convinced. It's just a mere variant of Raise Dead with a very minor upside unless you really up the number of cards that make everyone discard, and even then it's not that powerful. I think I'd play Phyrexian Reclamation and Palace Siege over it, since they are reusable.

I'm gonna throw out Stir the Grave for it, because the only creature I want to constantly reanimate is Kroxa. And of course I play PhyRec as well. Palace Siege on the other hand is just another 5 mana do-nothing-the-turn-it-enters-play enchantment. That's why I already cut it.

Speaking of reusable reanimation engine, what do you think of Coffin Queen? Too slow? It looks like a solid turn 3.

It's fragile, but so is Hell's Caretaker. But then again, it is very mana intensive. I will think of it.

EDIT: I think, I don't want to play Coffin Queen. I play Hell's Caretaker mostly because it combos with Thornbite Staff and Coffin Queen doesn't do that infinitely.

[KMA_Again]

If people are going to consider Pox/Smallpox for this, why not Death Cloud? If you run a lot of artifact mana it's very powerful as you can still operate even after the lands and creatures get wiped.

[Dragoon]

I'll run Deal instead of Jar, because of budget reasons. Also, I think Jar is a little overcosted. You don't want to activate it turn 5 when you just played it, so it is either a dead card in your hand or it gets removed in the turn cycle. Neither is fun. Ideally, my hand will be empty most of the time, or, should be empty for some shenanigans with Hollowborn Barghest, so Dark Deal doesn't really harm me.

You'll want to activate Memory Jar on turn 6 indeed. But if you have to activate it during another player's turn, it won't be that bad if you have synergy pieces like Waste Not to go along with it. I guess it just comes down once again to differences between "Rack effects only" and "a mix of Rack and Megrim effects".
I personally don't want to go hellbent in this deck so Dark Deal might be more harmful for me if I don't have synergy pieces on board.

I'll play her, because I go the reanimator route with Kroxa, so I won't let him go to the Command Zone a lot of times that he dies. So Lili will flip pretty consistently. Like, turn 4 Lili and a 1 mana reanimation spell like Claim doesn't sound too bad, for getting a Zombie token and letting each opponent discard 2 cards and you discard 1 yourself.

Do you think you'll be able to defend her though? Otherwise you might as well just play Liliana's Specter that will make the discard happen a turn earlier and won't require you to have a reanimation spell in hand to do anything. You might end up playing way more creatures than me though, so she might have other ways to trigger in your deck.

In my final version I will play 35 lands, but I plan to play Pox and Smallpox. I can always reshuffle my graveyard into the library if I discard/mill or lose my Eldrazi titans. And if I let Kroxa escape I can kinda manipulate how big my library gets after reshuffling, so the land/nonland-ratio will shift at my will. I will at least test Pox/Smallpox, because they act as a boardwipe, discard and setback.

Hmm, I'm still not convinced but I lack experience with those cards. I guess I'll wait to hear from you how well they performed before trying to put them in the deck.

I'm gonna throw out Stir the Grave for it, because the only creature I want to constantly reanimate is Kroxa. And of course I play PhyRec as well. Palace Siege on the other hand is just another 5 mana do-nothing-the-turn-it-enters-play enchantment. That's why I already cut it.

5 mana do-nothing-the-turn-it-enters-play enchantment might be a problem indeed (I'm too used to durdle ). But isn't it okay if our opponents don't have much cards in hand? They won't be able to put too much pressure on us and it's not like we were going to end the game on turn 5 or 6.
For one-shot effects, I'll probably consider Omen of the Dead though, at least you can get some more value out of it.

It's fragile, but so is Hell's Caretaker. But then again, it is very mana intensive. I will think of it.
EDIT: I think, I don't want to play Coffin Queen. I play Hell's Caretaker mostly because it combos with Thornbite Staff and Coffin Queen doesn't do that infinitely.

Well, I don't plan to put combos in my deck and Thornbite Staff probably won't be very useful in this deck. So yeah, although I love Hell's Caretaker, I don't think I'll have room for him in my deck. Coffin Queen being able to activate at instant speed also means I can activate her during an opponent's draw step to force them to discard the card they just drew.

If people are going to consider Pox/Smallpox for this, why not Death Cloud? If you run a lot of artifact mana it's very powerful as you can still operate even after the lands and creatures get wiped.

That's probably too slow and I don't plan on running lots of artifact mana at the moment. Also, I want to keep my friends!

[KitsuLeif]

I updated my thread with my "final" deck list that I want to playtest for a while now.

You'll want to activate Memory Jar on turn 6 indeed. But if you have to activate it during another player's turn, it won't be that bad if you have synergy pieces like Waste Not to go along with it. I guess it just comes down once again to differences between "Rack effects only" and "a mix of Rack and Megrim effects".
I personally don't want to go hellbent in this deck so Dark Deal might be more harmful for me if I don't have synergy pieces on board.

Yeah, the only Megrim-esque effect I play is Waste Not, because it does a lot of work in the early game, especially with Kroxa and Dark Deal. Going hellbent helps Asylum Visitor and Blood Scrivener, and getting cards into my graveyard helps with the reanimator plan.

Do you think you'll be able to defend her though? Otherwise you might as well just play Liliana's Specter that will make the discard happen a turn earlier and won't require you to have a reanimation spell in hand to do anything. You might end up playing way more creatures than me though, so she might have other ways to trigger in your deck.

I have 21 creatures in my list, so hopefully I can defend Lili for a while. Also, she pseudo-protects herself with the Zombie token she creates. And I already play Burglar Rat and Rotting Rats for cheap discard. I don't really like Specter because of its low stats.
Also Grave Pact that works well if we let Kroxa go to the grave all the time.

Hmm, I'm still not convinced but I lack experience with those cards. I guess I'll wait to hear from you how well they performed before trying to put them in the deck.

The only time I played Smallpox was in Modern Budget 8-Rack and it was fun to disrupt the opponent's lands, hands and boards, so I hope I can recreate that experience with Pox in Commander as well.

5 mana do-nothing-the-turn-it-enters-play enchantment might be a problem indeed (I'm too used to durdle ). But isn't it okay if our opponents don't have much cards in hand? They won't be able to put too much pressure on us and it's not like we were going to end the game on turn 5 or 6.
For one-shot effects, I'll probably consider Omen of the Dead though, at least you can get some more value out of it.

It might be okay, but personally I'd like to do more on turn 5 than play a single card that doesn't do anything the turn I play it.

Well, I don't plan to put combos in my deck and Thornbite Staff probably won't be very useful in this deck. So yeah, although I love Hell's Caretaker, I don't think I'll have room for him in my deck. Coffin Queen being able to activate at instant speed also means I can activate her during an opponent's draw step to force them to discard the card they just drew.

In my list, Thornbite Staff has three uses: Untap Hell's Caretaker for going infinite and ending the game. Untap Feldon of the Third Path after he made a Kroxa token. Untap Nezumi Shortfang after a reanimation spell on Kroxa, so I can let an opponent discard three cards in a single turn. And potentially a fourth use: Ping away x/1 creatures that can get dangerous somehow.

That's probably too slow and I don't plan on running lots of artifact mana at the moment. Also, I want to keep my friends!

Agreed. Pox seems to be more effective in what it does than Death Cloud.

[Dragoon]

I updated my thread with my "final" deck list that I want to playtest for a while now.

Great! I'll go take a look at it.

I have 21 creatures in my list, so hopefully I can defend Lili for a while. Also, she pseudo-protects herself with the Zombie token she creates. And I already play Burglar Rat and Rotting Rats for cheap discard. I don't really like Specter because of its low stats.

What about Stronghold Rats then? Repeatable engine

Also Grave Pact that works well if we let Kroxa go to the grave all the time.

Yeah, I keep thinking about it and Dictate of Erebos, especially if I end up playing Plaguecrafter and friends.

In my list, Thornbite Staff has three uses: Untap Hell's Caretaker for going infinite and ending the game. Untap Feldon of the Third Path after he made a Kroxa token. Untap Nezumi Shortfang after a reanimation spell on Kroxa, so I can let an opponent discard three cards in a single turn. And potentially a fourth use: Ping away x/1 creatures that can get dangerous somehow.

I still think it's quite light to make it worthwhile but I do understand that you have a combo in there. Maybe it's enough.

[KitsuLeif]

Great! I'll go take a look at it.

Awesome :D

What about Stronghold Rats then? Repeatable engine

But it has to connect and other than Rankle it doesn't have haste, so it has to survive a turn cycle, so I'll probably pass on that.

Yeah, I keep thinking about it and Dictate of Erebos, especially if I end up playing Plaguecrafter and friends.

Butcher of Malakir also comes to mind, if you want to play all three?

I still think it's quite light to make it worthwhile but I do understand that you have a combo in there. Maybe it's enough.

I will try and see. Maybe the combo isn't worth it. I run other combos as well, so maybe I can cut it. Apprentice Necromancer could be another worthy inclusion for reanimation.