Brewing a Commanding Hand: A Control Experiment

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Gorillajay
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Post by Gorillajay » 11 months ago

Background


TLDR; I've brewed a deck for an archetype outside of my comfort zone and would love input.

For some time now I've pondered on making the right control deck. I've dabbled with a few but often times I end up dropping them for one reason or another, or I end up making so many tweaks the true essence of Control/Responsive play was lost. I play in an established meta (~12 or so players) where I feel we see very few control/responsive deck archetypes as the forefront or cornerstone of the deck. Instead everyone carries on with their theme or just plays with high quality cards and homogenized good stuff decks. I believe having decks of varying archetypes within an established meta keeps players honest in their deck building. If players know there is no control deck in the meta they can build the some of the most efficient and greediest decks possible. This is a role I'm willing to take up in our meta, at least for this particular deck.

My meta:
For extra context, I define my meta as "high but not cEDH", with quite a bit of variance. Most of the time the cEDH decks are reserved for play against cEDH decks, however occasionally a deck with a little extra fast mana, a few too many tutors, and 2 card combos sneaks into a game where it maybe shouldn't be. We've gotten better at the rule 0 conversations but it's an imperfect science. At the same time a majority of the decks being piloted are winning or executing their game plan at the rate described above. Ideally, this deck could fit within that meta well keeping the stronger decks at bay but not being too oppressive for the more honest decks.

The goal:
Something I'm always chasing when brewing any deck is making a deck I can "marry". To summarize I'll quote a friend.
It's very rewarding when you find a commander or deck you end up "marrying" and you spend time and get enough reps in to the point where you have enough sample size to start noticing the little nuances of the deck and get to the fine-tuning phase instead of soul searching phase. You can pilot the deck with your eyes closed. You know the deck like the back of your hand and know its strengths and weaknesses and all the lines. It's your comfort food. It's Anton's mom's ratatouille. You always come home to it. It sometimes may let you down but you know it'll always be there for you.
After a recent successful brew on MTGNexus for what is now one of my favorite decks, Thalia, The Gitrog Monster and I are happily wed, and here I am presenting my next challenge. Building the perfect control deck (for me). This is an attempt to put forth my best effort. The goal is to create a control deck with longevity. One that has some variance, challenges you in a different way every game, and limits the amount of animosity control decks typically bring to the table.

The closest I've been to achieving this has been playing within the Marchesa Akido archetype. This is a deck that I've ran for years now, and has a wonderful knowledge base of primers regarding piloting / brewing it. That being said, while it's an incredibly fun archetype to play it never felt like a true control. Aikido decks often rely on dissuasion, politics and sometimes things like luck and meta to get the job done. Dissuasion is great in control, but sometimes a heavier hand is needed, especially when playing reactively. I do believe that control decks can and should fly a bit under the radar at the table, but the overall card quality should be good enough to get the board and the game to a state within their favor. Aikido decks don't often play cards with that high of quality, rather they rely on niche scenarios and having the correct card at the correct moment. Additionally, an Aikido deck can lose it's charm after a bit when playing within an established meta, specifically because people more or less know what your deck is capable of and will often play around it significantly. You're only going to full swing into a Comeuppance once.


Below are the guidelines and standards I've set for myself in what I imagine (if I'm able to strike the right balance) will result in a perfect a control deck built with longevity.

Deckbuilding Principles/Restrictions

  • Must be able to win. Just because it's a control deck doesn't mean I get to monopolize my opponents time and spend the entirety of the late game taking multiple game actions trying to figure out how to win. Traditionally with any control deck I brew this has been a somewhat difficult problem to solve. Combo's are on the table, but Ideally they are somewhat interesting and relative to the theme of the deck and not arbitrarily thrown in just for the sake of having a win con.
  • Must be non-blue. I think building a control deck with blue and countermagic has been a solved problem. I have other blue decks with lots of counter magic. I enjoy the challenge of a control deck without a swath of counter magic available.
  • Must limit tutor usage. I'm ok with a few tutors, especially more linear or restricted ones. I believe having a high tutor density limits the variance in game play you see, and if we're building for overall longevity of the deck I want to be mindful about this. My expanded thoughts on tutors can be found on a recent thread here.
  • Must be control. Disruptive, interactive and responsive elements should all be the forefront of the deck. Too often, I begin brewing a "control" deck but cut cards to instead fit the theme or win con. I end up with a themed deck archetype like reanimator, aristocrats, lifegain, etc, and the disruptive/control elements of the deck have been minimized. The goal with this is to allow games to play out different each time depending on board states/opponents/meta etc. I want to introduce a true control deck into my meta.
  • Must be streamlined and allow for fast play. There should be some critical decision making points of course, as that comes with the territory of any control deck. However, but I would like to be conscious about time-consuming play or having overcomplicated board states.

Decklist


So given the backround above. The deck below is where I have landed so far. I've brewed several variations of an Orzhov control list, each of which ended up being axed for the reason I mentioned above. This is the first one I believe is worth publishing and at least starting this discussion. A few notes on the design and current iteration, that I'd like to discuss. I've outlined my thoughts on why I've made the decisions i have so far, but because I'm brewing outside of my comfort zone I'm not particularly married to those decisions and open for input.

Commander
Vona, Butcher of Magan Wasn't my first choice when brewing, but it felt like a good fit. Other previous options brewed with were Athreos, Shroud-Veiled, Liesa, Forgotten Archangel, Karlov of the Ghost Council, Teysa Karlov, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. Some of these were fine, and others leant themselves to too much of a theme like Life gain or aristrocrats and lost the control aspect I am seeking. I'm open to other suggestions and not particularly married to Vona.

Win Conditions
The win cons above are in no particular order, and I'm not sure which priority or frequency I would expect to see them close out games. I also don't particularly feel like they're resilient, It's possible that's just the nature of having a control first archetype and I'm brewing outside of my comfort zone.

Card Draw
With most of the card draw included I tried to maximize the amount of mana spent per card drawn. This gives me more freedom in how I spend my mana each turn allowing me to better react to the board state and to incidentally draw cards over the course of the long game. I've opted to not include cheap efficient draw like Night's Whisper, and Sign in Blood as I believe those cards may get stuck in hand when I end up tapping out for a board wipe. I think I'd rather be spending my early game tempo dropping passive card draw like Black Market Connections or playing disruption spells like Blind Obedience.

Ramp
Currently there is a mix of traditional artifact ramp with the land catchup ramp mechanics of white (Knight of the White Orchid and Archaeomancer's Map). With the Coffer's win con above having additional plains in play helps pump the mana. Additionally, lands won't get caught up in sweepers the same way Orzhov Signet does. However, I wanted to limit the white land ramp cards as they have diminishing returns. I'm even playing Orzhov Basilica to help with that as well.

Disruption
I want this to be a theme of the deck. I feel like it's a strong suite, of non-blue control decks. Since we don't have counter magic, creating puzzles for the table to solve is an interesting aspect of game play for me. Finding the correct balance can be a bit of a challenge. I also like that you can potentially tune this suite of cards to a meta to fit what you believe to be more impactful. Do you see a lot of GY decks, play more GY hate. Do you see combo play Rule of Law?

Recursion
White and Black naturally lend themselves to recursion. It makes sense to include some aspect of that in the deck as it's an alternative form of card advantage and works well when we are wiping the board a bit.

Board Wipes, Defense, Removal
AKA "not losing". I think the challenge here is identifying the correct count for each.

Without further adieu here is the deck in it's current brewed iteration. It is currently pending discussion with the community before I sleeve up and test it. Please let me know your thoughts and feedback!

Thanks!
Vona's Commanding Hand

Commander

Win Condition (1)

Defense (2)

Approximate Total Cost:

*Edit, original list was missing some card slots. Should be fixed now.
Last edited by Gorillajay 11 months ago, edited 3 times in total.

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TheGildedGoose
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 11 months ago

Interesting. I've struggled to build a non-blue control deck that I enjoy playing at high-end and low-end tables for a long time myself, and I usually come up short in one way or another. As you may remember, Abzan is my favorite three-color combination, and although the Thalia and The Gitrog Monster deck we brewed was a lot of fun, ultimately, it was a little too... midrange-y for me. I want my Abzan deck to be a slow, grindy control deck, but unfortunately there really aren't any commanders in the wedge that really fit the bill. Maybe one day.

Instead of Vona, have you considered Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools and Yoshimaru, Ever Faithful for card draw in the command zone instead of removal? Black and white already have a plethora of removal, but consistent card draw can be a little spotty. Of course, you have to be an inhuman monster to do this, but I'm personally okay with it.

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Post by Gorillajay » 11 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
11 months ago
Interesting. I've struggled to build a non-blue control deck that I enjoy playing at high-end and low-end tables for a long time myself, and I usually come up short in one way or another. As you may remember, Abzan is my favorite three-color combination, and although the Thalia and The Gitrog Monster deck we brewed was a lot of fun, ultimately, it was a little too... midrange-y for me. I want my Abzan deck to be a slow, grindy control deck, but unfortunately there really aren't any commanders in the wedge that really fit the bill. Maybe one day.
Hey! Was hoping you would pop up here @TheGildedGoose! Yeah the Thalia and The Gitrog Monster deck is still a favorite of mine, I was in the market for a midrange-ey landfall deck within and that was the perfect match.

Sounds like what you're looking for is a real grinder, which I can certainly appreciate as Abzan is my favorite colors as well. Sounds like you're looking for something akin to @WizardMN 's Karador deck. Here's some excerpts from his primer.
Karador is all about attrition; he grinds out games and allows you to focus your energy on controlling what you want to control and finding your window of opportunity to strike. This means he plays much closer to a control deck than he does a traditional midrange or reanimator deck. Those elements are still there, but they generally further the control aspect.
He is often viewed as "the Reanimation general" for Abzan, but he reanimates for value, not for power. You make incremental advantages until your opponents run out of resources so you can strike.
Karador's main strength is in the fact that the deck has a lot of value in the card choices. You should always be able to out-grind your opponents, even while they are trying to stop you. Your creatures dying is not a detriment (and, in fact, you sometimes want them to die). Their deaths only fuel your cause and your graveyard can become a second hand.
Why you should play the deck
You enjoy long grindy games of Magic
You enjoy having all the answers
You are confident in your ability to accurately assess board states
You like games that play out differently every time

I know I've revisited that primer a few times as all of that sounds super appealing. Unfortunately, the entirety of the deck is heavily rooted within a creature heavy reanimation archetype which is ultimately reason I never went that route.

Maybe someday they'll print a commander that strikes the right chord for you!
TheGildedGoose wrote:
11 months ago
Instead of Vona, have you considered Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools and Yoshimaru, Ever Faithful for card draw in the command zone instead of removal? Black and white already have a plethora of removal, but consistent card draw can be a little spotty. Of course, you have to be an inhuman monster to do this, but I'm personally okay with it.
I had not! I wasn't crazy about Vona in the command zone, but the removal seemed to fit the bill. The rest of the deck wasn't really centralized around the commander either, it was just kind of another effect that I like that I can always have access to. This is certainly a worthwhile option to explore. I agree the draw for this type of deck can be a little spotty, this was a problem area I identified in my brewing. Having consistency there in the command zone can certainly help smooth things over, I'll have to take a pass at what it looks like to have them in the Command Zone and see what good supporting cards may be worthwhile to swap in. Great suggestion!

Edit: Forgot to address this.
Of course, you have to be an inhuman monster to do this, but I'm personally okay with it.
Yes, this commander pairing is admittedly somewhat meme-y and morally reprehensible, but something I'm also willing to be ok with and personally fits the super villian vibes of a control deck player anyway.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 11 months ago

Gorillajay wrote:
11 months ago
Hey!
Oh, hello.
I know I've revisited that primer a few times as all of that sounds super appealing. Unfortunately, the entirety of the deck is heavily rooted within a creature heavy reanimation archetype which is ultimately reason I never went that route.

Maybe someday they'll print a commander that strikes the right chord for you!
Same. While I obviously want to utilize the graveyard, investing too heavily into it or relying on too many creatures isn't my jam. Blowing creatures up is my jam, and a creature-filled deck doesn't mix well with lots of board wipes.

I've been eyeballing Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa because this thread inspired me to give the Abzan commanders another look. She's unimpressive at first glance, but she does a lot of things control decks want. Firstly, she's a win condition. Killing three players with toxic 2 seems like a stretch, but realistically you're taking out one or two once the game is more or less contained, and that's five swings per opponent. She's also an incredible blocker. Dissuading aggro is, as you noted, a huge part of playing a control deck, and a vigilant flyer with a big booty does that well. Finally, the main attraction is her corruption. While it's not card draw strictly speaking, it is a way to see more cards.

She doesn't thrill me like TATGM did but I think she could be worth exploring. Too bad about the hideous art.
I had not! I wasn't crazy about Vona in the command zone, but the removal seemed to fit the bill. The rest of the deck wasn't really centralized around the commander either, it was just kind of another effect that I like that I can always have access to. This is certainly a worthwhile option to explore. I agree the draw for this type of deck can be a little spotty, this was a problem area I identified in my brewing. Having consistency there in the command zone can certainly help smooth things over, I'll have to take a pass at what it looks like to have them in the Command Zone and see what good supporting cards may be worthwhile to swap in. Great suggestion!
I was originally looking at Szat/Yoshi to lead a Chocolate Parfait style deck full of enchantments and featuring Opalescence/Parallax Wave as a win condition, but abandoned it before even brewing. Let me know if the pair works out for you.

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Man if you're looking for control and liked marchesa, you should give some thought to trying out my Breena list (and tweaking it to your own take of course). This deck is just almost oppressively controlling sometimes.

The edge that Breena has over marchesa is a few fold:
1) Being able to run Nykthos or Coffers and the Brought Back fetchland suite that just does not work quite right in 3 colors -- so you get to end game mana for big spells and holding up more mana
2) Having WW and WWW reliably makes things like Hour of Revelation and such work better
3) Being able to crank out a ton of power in a couple cards plays a lot more controlly (with a side effect of Lifelink dudes really helping out for racing scenarios). Also makes hatebears more effective at controlling. No one wants to lose to a 9/10 Hushbringer but boy does it happen a lot :)
4) Aikido stuff works better when you're applying a lot of pressure

Breena cuts a bunch of cards for wincons out and gets to run more straight control elements that Marchesa struggles with like Farewell and Hour of Revelation.

I could see my build skewing even more control by cutting out some of the top end creatures and playing more raw card draw and interaction.

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Post by Gorillajay » 11 months ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
11 months ago
I've been eyeballing Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa because this thread inspired me to give the Abzan commanders another look. She's unimpressive at first glance, but she does a lot of things control decks want. Firstly, she's a win condition. Killing three players with toxic 2 seems like a stretch, but realistically you're taking out one or two once the game is more or less contained, and that's five swings per opponent. She's also an incredible blocker. Dissuading aggro is, as you noted, a huge part of playing a control deck, and a vigilant flyer with a big booty does that well. Finally, the main attraction is her corruption. While it's not card draw strictly speaking, it is a way to see more cards.
I was extremely excited when they spoiled Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa for all of the same reasons you mentioned. The randomness of seeing extra cards to have more toys to play with and more lines of play is right up my alley for types of card advantage.

However, shortly after I saw her spoiled I was hit with the stark realization that Ixhel does 2 things that people REALLY hate in a game. Infect/Poison AND stealing cards from opponents...

This alone was enough to keep me off of brewing as I was afraid it could make me too much of a target. I like to think that most people in my meta are reasonable enough to play to the board state, and while in theory that may happen. I think there is some unconscious bias that may be working against anyone that is piloting that commander, as the extra poison clock and getting robbed aren't working in your favor.

Hope this didn't rain on your parade too much, and honestly I hope you end up trying it out because I'm equally excited to hear about how it works out.
pokken wrote:
11 months ago
Man if you're looking for control and liked marchesa, you should give some thought to trying out my Breena list (and tweaking it to your own take of course). This deck is just almost oppressively controlling sometimes.
Hi @pokken! Well now the gang is all here.

I actually looked quite a bit at both your Breena deck and @TheGildedGoose 's Noble Shadowheart decks. I think they were partial inspiration for this brew. Breena is actually one of my favorite cards that I played in my Marchesa deck, so she was on my radar when I started looking at a deck.

Unfortunately, my recent struggles with my Marchesa Aikido deck has left a poor taste in my mouth for politics so I was trying to minimize the amount of politicking the deck would include. I do absolutely love that style of play and I think at another point in time I would be up for it. However, right now I believe I need a bit of a break from that and would like to take a heavier hand to control.

Tldr; I'm tired of asking.

I would be interested in seeing a variant you mentioned where it's a bit more control heavy then it's current iteration.

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Just cut all the more expensive creatures for more removal and probably some card advantage dudes ;) If I were brewing for control I might run necropotence and decree of pain and that oona blackguard dude who makes people discard. That thing is savage.

The place I am at with Breena now is to never ask or suggest people attack. I just draw two extra cards and add 4 power every turn and they can go for cards if they want. Or swing into me and get ruined.

Re: Vona

Vona is horrible. She's expensive and the play pattern of tap to destroy is horrible. You'll be arch enemy most of the time if she's online and if she's not you have to do all the card draw yourself. Do not want.

I'd consider almost any Tymna build. Tymna is fun as hell.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 11 months ago

pokken wrote:
11 months ago
that oona blackguard dude who makes people discard. That thing is savage.
Try Dreamstealer hopped up on Noble Heritage. It even eternalizes!
The place I am at with Breena now is to never ask or suggest people attack. I just draw two extra cards and add 4 power every turn and they can go for cards if they want. Or swing into me and get ruined.
My experience with Breena is that she is extremely aggressive and extremely anti-politics.
I'd consider almost any Tymna build. Tymna is fun as hell.
Yawn.

I've also been considering a Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools and Gilanra, Caller of Wirewood deck I call "Turn Three Szat." All the 1mv dorks and rocks, turn 2 Gilandra, then, as advertised, the turn 3 Szat. Untapping with two thrulls and two dorks as well as an active Szat seems real good.

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

my buddy had a tana tevesh jund midrange deck that slapped. Ashnods altar with no combos but was great.

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Post by Gorillajay » 11 months ago

pokken wrote:
11 months ago
Vona is horrible. She's expensive and the play pattern of tap to destroy is horrible. You'll be arch enemy most of the time if she's online and if she's not you have to do all the card draw yourself. Do not want.
I think the plan was to leverage Vona as a back up plan for removal or just something to spend mana on when it's opportune. If someone wants to dedicate resourcing to get Vona off the board or go after them it's probably fine, as that's more time and resources they're wasting not executing their own game plan instead which is a win. Certainly worthwhile to explore other options, especially ones that can provide draw, but I don't think it's a terrible option for this type of game play.
TheGildedGoose wrote:
11 months ago
My experience with Breena is that she is extremely aggressive and extremely anti-politics.
My experience with her in Marchesa whenever she's come out early is that she is extremely aggressive. So I agree on that. Curious why you say anti-politics though, isn't incentivizing your opponents to attach each other inherently political? Once you open that box of trying to manipulate the table I think it genuinely is expected that your deck is trying to overtly or subtly trying to manipulate the game to some extent

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Post by darrenhabib » 11 months ago

I get what you mean by the commander often dictates how you end up building a deck and then you sort of get away from your original plan which in this case is control.

I'm not sold on the configuration of the deck, it does feel like it's fighting itself at times.
Hushbringer with Cavalier of Dawn, Karmic Guide, Sun Titan, Jirina, Dauntless General, Knight of the White Orchid, Loyal Warhound, Ranger-Captain of Eos is a nonbo.

The amount of board wipes paired with creatures isn't a synergy. I get that you have Clever Concealment and Teferi's Protection but you'll be casting these reactively rather than with your own spells a lot of the time. Plus having 10 mana to cast say a Martial Coup or White Sun's Twilight and cast Teferi's Protection is going to be the rare time.
I think you either want to reduce your board permanents -or- have more ways to negate the effects. Selfless Spirit, Boromir, Warden of the Tower, Selfless Glyphweaver // Deadly Vanity for example. Or one sided graveyard retrieval .

You've sort of half dipped into "hate bear" creatures with Aven Mindcensor, Esper Sentinel, Dauthi Voidwalker, Drana and Linvala, Kambal, Consul of Allocation but not playing others like Drannith Magistrate, Ethersworn Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Archon of Emeria, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Opposition Agent. Of note the deck as it currently stands is pretty much geared for only casting one or two cards each turn.

Coming back to the commander Vona is pretty bad because of mana cost and the hate it receives from opponents aiming removal at it.
One Orzov commander I have been very impressed by is Verrak, Warped Sengir and basically just using him with fetchlands. It's just a very consistent way to ramp lands which are resilient to board wipes.
Then as far as "must play" cards to go with that commander, there really isn't that many, so you don't feel that you are forced into an achetype.
Arguel's Blood Fast and Erebos, God of the Dead go nice, and can be resilient to board wipes. Phyrexian Reclamation for getting creatures back with your own wipes. But honestly besides fetchlands and Crucible of Worlds and Scaretiller (to recur fetches), these are the only cards I play for the commander itself. Plus I find that Verrak, Warped Sengir isn't targeted for removal all that much, because he doesn't hinder your opponents and not that threatening. The flying+deathtouch also means opponents' scariest creatures don't attack you.
The land ramp works nicely into setting up better Coffers+Urborg and I also have Emeria, the Sky Ruin as even though it's a 2 color deck, the ramp enables putting lots of Plains into play.
Anyway food for thought, this control game is less about non-land permanents and more about board wipes.

Oh yeah Heliod's Intervention is a must for control decks!

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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Verrak, Warped Sengir seems like a really reasonable thing to try. The synergy with Brought Back (et al) is bananas. Just need to find a way to offset the life loss--maybe some equipment or something since he brings lifelink. But it's a really legit way to ramp into game ending Torment of Hailfire type stuff.

With verrak, I would go all in on the Second Sunrise / Faith's Reward stuff I think.

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Post by Gorillajay » 11 months ago

Ok we're back with 2 new rough draft brews for this experiment. These are heavily based off of ideas/feedback that has been provided in the thread so far. Overall brewing to this extent has been a fun challenge and certainly tested my deck building muscles. Definitely one of those scenarios for me where "brewing is almost more fun the playing".

I feel like I've been in a deep hole of Orzhov control for a little over a week now and finally need to come up for air and hit the refresh button. Between the decision making for card choices, theory crafting scenarios and goldfishing I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little burnt out. I'll probably take a breather over the weekend and actually play some magic instead of just brewing.

However, i'm excited to share the result and even more excited for this community to provide their thoughts and feedback. I'll check back in next week to see what everyone thinks!

Below are the decks and my thoughts on their composition.

Deck #1: All Dogs Go to Heaven

Deck Summary:
This monstrosity utilizes a strong (albeit morally apprehensible) command zone card draw package to keep our hand full and allow us to apply Rule of Law and other disruptive effects to keep the board clear until we can reach a combo using some variation of Animate Dead / Necromancy + Leonin Relic-Warder / Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward + Corpse Knight / Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim.

Disruption choices:
Rule of law being the package of choice here as assembling a 3-4 piece combo without tutors takes TIME. Rule of law buys us precious turns and once people finally have some action out or once they get rid of the effect, we can just wipe it all away to buy more time. This effect also pairs well with our commander package as planeswalkers can take extra actions to psuedo break parity on the equalizing effects of RoL. Rule of Law is not great at being dissuasive or flying the under the radar but it is just plain equalizing, and prevents your opponents from having a waterfall of effects that cause them to run away with the game, or at the very least presenting a problem for your opponents to solve before they can make their run for the game.

Draw choices:
Run of the mill good draw cards for our colors. Additionally this package is juiced with a couple synergistic pieces to turn thrulls or extra bodies into card draw with Village Rites effects and/or Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools in the event Yoshimaru, Ever Faithful because too cost prohibitive. Skullclamp and Bitterblossom also make an appearance as a strong engine and something to do that doesn't require "casting spells" so it plays a bit around the Rule of Law effects.

Ramp choices:
Similar to the original list, this package has a mix of usual mana rocks + white land ramp catchup mechanics. A little added benefit from having extra bodies after our loyal friends have done their job we can turn them into card draw. (I'm really sorry, this deck just likes sacc-ing doggos). Still trying to be cognitive though of the diminishing returns of redundancy on the white ramp mechanic.

Removal/Board Wipes:
AKA Not Dying.
Honestly, Not a ton of thought put into these. Just chose some of the best options for our colors. This is all pretty flexible. I think the quantity here is more important the the specific effects. There's so many options for these that it just makes sense to just pick whatever fits your meta the best or allows you to have any potential synergy. Flexible wipes are a good option as retaining any Rule of Law or other disruption effects post wipe seems pretty good. Given the extra heat generated from Rule of Law. I may need to bump these numbers up to stave off dying.

Combo/Win Con:
Out of both newly brewed decks this part of this deck is where I am most uncertain.

I tried to condense this specific win con package to as few cards as feasible. This package has cross over redundancy and allows for a 3 piece (sometimes 4 piece combo) to be assembled and ultimately end the game. It's also supported by two tutors for a little extra redundancy.

A bit unsure, of this as an overall win con. The redundancy feels ok, especially with support of the two tutors, however execution of it feels particularly fragile. Grand Abolisher Could be an option to help here effectively making it a 4 card combo. Open to suggestions on "how to win" as that is apparently the toughest area for me to figure out. I'm drawing the game out a bit with the Rule of Law effects to give me enough time to execute whatever it is. Ideally I would like to just end the game as I don't want to draw it out too long once I've established control. At the very least I have ~10 slots or so that I can dedicate to winning, just need to drill down onto what exactly that should be.

All Dogs Go to Heaven

Defense(2)

Protection(1)

Tutors(2)

Approximate Total Cost:


Deck #2: Verrak's Blood Pact: A Life's Price

Deck Summary:
Like @darrenhabib so kindly pointed out, Verrak, Warped Sengir Does a lot of things we like in a control deck. 1. It's a rattle snake and great blocker. 2. Doesn't draw too much attention or heat until we start really utilizing his effects. 3. Ramps us with Fetch lands . This lets us quickly begin disrupting and interacting with opponents while also contributing to our overall plan of casting a Big X spell to close out the game. Additionally, his current benefit/effect of paying life is not overly supported with too many cards that we find ourselves building into a specific archetype rather then control. Meanwhile the cards that are synergistic fit well within our game plan like drawing cards.

Disruption choices:
Limited our disruption choices this time to non-creature where possible. Ideally these don't get swept up when we wipe the board. Prioritized ones that are the most disruptive such as Torpor Orb, Blind Obedience, Aura of Silence.

Draw choices:
Draw is broken up into 3 buckets. 1. Good cards you expect to see in a draw package of an Orzhov Deck. 2. Draw cards that synergize well with our commander. 3. Cheap draw to smooth our gameplay and take advantage of excess mana.

Ramp choices:
With full off color fetches + commander the deck kind of ramps itself. However, in goldfishing it was identified that 2 mana rocks are still very good as you can effectively ramp with a rock on turn 2. Play Verrak, Warped Sengir on 3. THEN play a fetch land, crack it, get 2 lands into play untapped and use that 2 mana to do something else such as Night's Whisper. Because of this we're attempting to maximize 2 mana rocks in this slot. Additionally because of our commander and land ramp I don't expect we would often be able to take advantage of white ramp like Knight of the White Orchid.

Recursion:
As @pokken mentioned, fetch lands & Verrak, Warped Sengir are great with effects like Cosmic Intervention Second Sunrise Brought Back. Doubling up on land ramping effects or just getting back permanents we may have incidentally lost seems great. Additionally, these effects and Teferi's Protection pull double duty as a win con when paired with the correct board wipe.

Removal/Board Wipes:
Fairly high density here to keep us alive. Prioritizing mass sacrifice effects to pair as a win con with Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern. Cataclysm and Balancing act double as win cons.

Combo/Win Con:
The primary win condition nothing new. A lot of mana +X spell Torment of Hailfire and friends. . Usually game ending with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers . But even without them, our natural amount of ramp we can do some real damage or at least gain a bunch of life to dump back into our Greed cards. Additional redundancy to find big mana is also included in the form of Expedition Map and Weathered Wayfarer.


The secondary win con as mentioned above casting one of two Mass Land Destruction effects like Cataclysm or Balancing Act with a parity breaking effect like Faith's Reward to get it back or using Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern to steal it all for yourself. This puts you in such a far ahead position that ideally your opponents scoop, or at least giving you several different ways to win from there now that you have all the things and they have none.

I'm a bit mixed here.

One one hand, MLD is a bit taboo, even in my "high, but not cEDH" meta. It's also not the cleanest way to win, so this goes against my original principles of trying to end the game quickly.

On the other, I think that that this can and should be a valid way to close out a game for a control deck. What is more "controlling" then crushing your opponents under a mass of resources that you now have and they don't. Additionally, board wipes are part of control deck archetypes plan naturally. Doubling up a win con with something you want to do anyway seems to just make sense. I 100% would just cast Balancing Act by itself if I felt the game was getting away from me. Sure, I'd be a little more hesitant to fire off Cataclysm as this a little more extreme, but I would also do it there, especially in the early game if someone had a really fast start. Finally, it's not the Primary win con of the deck, as I believe the Big X spells and Big mana have proven themselves to be pretty reliable, so more often that not I expect to win that way instead of this way.

I suppose, I just need to play this out in live games in order to get a general sense of how myself and my opponents ultimately feel about it.

Verrak's Blood Pact: A Life's Price

Commander(1)

Verrak, Warped Sengir

Protection(1)

Teferi's Protection

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by Gorillajay 11 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

I like the Verrak list I think. Lot more interesting. I think it's gonna take some tuning though. The signet package is dull. It's fine to just play slower. If those were more removal spells and the loyal warhound package I think you'd have a better deck.

Also you should run the lotus field vale scorched ruins orzhov basilica package. It's really good with second sunrise.

Also Sudden Salvation is worth thinking about. I enjoy how it is basically one sided second sunrise but can also be explosive veggies.

I'd think about more sac outlets and Farewell. Farewell can be backbreaking in control matches.

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Post by Chromaticus » 11 months ago

I did a mock hand with the second deck -

Prismatic Vista, Windswept Heath, Plains, Mind Stone, Dauthi Voidwalker, and Cosmic Intervention - with Marsh Flats and Castle Locthwain on top.

Soooo…
Turn 1 Windswept Heath for Godless Shrine.
Turn 2 Castle Locthwain [/card] and Mind Stone
Turn 3 Verrak, Warped Sengir, play and crack Prismatic Vista [/card] for double plains, foretell Cosmic Intervention .
Turn 4, Marsh Flats, play intervention, get 4 lands now, and 2 more for the next turn, double activate Castle Locthwain.


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pokken
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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

Chromaticus wrote:
11 months ago
I did a mock hand with the second deck -

Prismatic Vista, Windswept Heath, Plains, Mind Stone, Dauthi Voidwalker, and Cosmic Intervention - with Marsh Flats and Castle Locthwain on top.

Soooo…
Turn 1 Windswept Heath for Godless Shrine.
Turn 2 Castle Locthwain [/card] and Mind Stone
Turn 3 Verrak, Warped Sengir, play and crack Prismatic Vista [/card] for double plains, foretell Cosmic Intervention .
Turn 4, Marsh Flats, play intervention, get 4 lands now, and 2 more for the next turn, double activate Castle Locthwain.

Coincidentally that hand (mostly) works just as well if you foretell Cosmic Intervention on 2, except Mind Stone might be Unexpectedly Absent so you have some early interaction :) Or Tithe, which is dope.

That said, the stone really does sequence well with him. Meh. I can dig it I guess :) It lets you hold fetches longer which is nice. Having to crack your third fetch to play Verrak, Warped Sengir is awkward.

I'd probably try the Loyal Warhound / Knight of the White Orchid package first

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Post by darrenhabib » 11 months ago

The Verrak list looks solid. My deck is more based around lands as win conditions. In fact I basically call it a lands deck. That way I can lean into board wipes a lot without losing my own resources. But I'm not about to change your strategy, rather just suggest cards that might help you.
I have graveyard retrieval cards that can get lands in Sevinne's Reclamation, Trove Warden, Sun Titan, The Restoration of Eiganjo (as well as the already mentioned Crucible of Worlds and Scaretiller).

A card I've been very impressed by is Realmbreaker, the Invasion Tree because in my meta everybody is playing fetchlands, so I always have a target. So it's going to depend on your meta. The advantage of opponents fetches as well is that if you were just putting normal lands into play then when an opponent is eliminated you lose those lands.
Now there is another function of Realmbreaker, the Invasion Tree in that you can get Praetor from your deck and 10 mana is very feasible with Verrak ramp. I don't use this part myself, because I don't play many nonland permanents, where as your deck does.
So a potential spicy package could be Elesh Norn, Sheoldred, Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Sheoldred, the Apocalypse, Sheoldred, Whispering One which are all great control cards on their own.
Ghostly Prison could be replaced with Elesh Norn, you have a ton of Torpor Orb effects so just replace one of these with Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines.
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse is $70 so understand if not in budget, but goes nicely with controlling opponents big draw decks and your own Greed, Arguel's Blood Fast, Erebos, God of the Dead, etc.

Balancing Act and Cataclysm are counter-intuitive to me, because you are land ramping so playing these cards on their own isn't appealing. You have to play them with Cosmic Intervention, Faith's Reward, Teferi's Protection, Tergrid, God of Fright. With Brought Back to a lesser extent and Second Sunrise doesn't help at all with these.
I will say that more time than not, you'll find that you won't be holding on to Cosmic Intervention, Faith's Reward, Brought Back for the combo, but often using them proactively say to save your stuff from opponents removal, crack a fetchland and just get solid value to bring them back.
On that note because you play a number of these, having some more sacrifice for value cards is going to get you .. well more value.
Saving your Expedition Map or Aura of Silence for when you use these is an example. I'd play a few more of these effects.
Wayfarer's Bauble, Nihil Spellbomb, Cathar Commando are potentials.

As far as the land base, you want as many Swamps and Plains as you can for recursive fetchland searches. Play Snowfield Sinkhole for this reason.
Ondu Inversion is a great land/spell card for control.

Now as I said I have a lands control deck so I'm just going to tell you some of my synergy not for changing your deck, but just to be aware of strats available for future deck building. Plus I also have more tutors than you, so often I tutor for a land that is going to help me, where you don't have this luxury.
So besides the Coffers+Urborg, I also use Volrath's Stronghold in conjunction with Kokusho, the Evening Star or Selfless Glyphweaver // Deadly Vanity.
Deadly Vanity is a card that you just keep casting over and over, just remember if you use the Selfless Glyphweaver exile part that it will be gone forever. However Deadly Vanity is great in my deck because often Verrak is my only nonland permanent :P
I also lean on Glacial Chasm a lot for protection and honestly there are a lot of decks that literally can't beat it. Then I use it with Nesting Grounds to remove the "age counter" so that you are only losing 2 life each turn. I have enough ways to gain life that this negated pretty well. I also have ways to get it back if I don't pay upkeep cost with cards I've already mentioned.
My other spicy lands are Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Blast Zone for more control and grind. I play Phyrexian Tower for Kokusho, the Evening Star combo.

As far as playing Verrak I'm super patient, so I noticed Chromaticus mock draw and really speed is not the game that normally you are carrying out or playing for. If you wanted pure land ramp speed then you might as well play green.
Having a high land count is especially important for start of the game mulligans where you specifically don't want your three lands drops to be fetchlands as you want to save them for Verrak. If I have a 3 land hand and one is a fetch, then I'll keep it and hope to draw another land. I'll also even not play out Verrak until I can crack a fetch, so might be able to play him on turn 3, but will save for turn 4.
Another common thing I'll do is not even crack the fetchlands until later into the game. The general idea of not exposing them to graveyard hate or often to make sure my land count is lower so that I can use Weathered Wayfarer multiple times. A nice little trick to get a lower land count for it, crack your fetches, but before they resolve respond with Weathered Wayfarer so that you can get that one last activation.
Urborg is one of the best lands because you can tap your fetches for mana without needing to crack them until you are ready. This is especially true with your Cosmic Intervention type cards that you want to save your fetches for maximum value.

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Post by darrenhabib » 11 months ago

Actually I just played a game on Magic Online now and it showed the virtues of saving fetches for prime moments. I got the magical Urborg with fetches so was able to not crack them until I got Faith's Reward. I was able to search for 12 lands by turn 5 with this.
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