Subject16's Design Lab

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Subject16
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Post by Subject16 » 4 years ago

Welcome to Subject16's Design Lab

I sometimes think about card designs I'd find interesting/worth exploring, and I thought I might as well start a thread to keep track of them as well as keep notes on flavour, design aspect etc. This is less of a "daily design" thread and more of a "update as I go along" one. I'll have quite a few to throw in at first obviously, then we'll see where this takes us.

I play almost exclusively commander, so don't be SUPER surprised if the majority of these end up being legendary creatures or cards geared towards that particular format.

Experiment 1: Pai La, Outpost Captain

For my first experiment, some Mono White commanders. It's become painfully obvious to the EDH community that white is the weakest of the five colors on its own. As a support color it's a godsend and packs some wonderful tools, but without the consistency of card advantage the other colors have available to them they can quickly run out of gas. Now white suffers greatly because of its lack of card draw, and said lack of draw is a part of white's color identity, as it has cheap, efficient removal but no solid way to draw into it should it run out of gas. (The big issue here is that at this point in time there has been enough cheap, powerful removal printed in other colors such as Tragic Slip, Vandalblast, Nature's Claim and Pongify that mitigate the efficiency of white's removal capabilities, and yet white has not benefitted from any powerful card draw engines.

Pai La, Outpost Captain
2W
Legendary Creature — Human Nomad

Flash

When Pai La, Outpost Captain enters the battlefield, scry 3.

W: Return target creature you control to its owner's hand.

"Get behind me."

1/3


It's important to note that card draw isn't the only form of card advantage present in the game. Recursion is perhaps the most obvious alternative, and what recursion offers over regular draw is something I'm exploring with a card like Pai La: Repetition and consistency. If white has access to great removal and tech options, it would do well to be able to use them over and over again rather than have to draw into a newer removal option.

Pai La here allows this option whilst also offering more flexible styles of play. Paying a white mana to return a creature to your hand means you can take advantage of your utility ETBs over and over again: monowhite staples like Knight of the White Orchid, Thraben Inspector, or Fiend Hunter become much stronger, as you replay them over and over to accumulate more resources over time without actually using more cards Pai La also helps this herself with her Scry 3 on entering to enable a better draw. Rather than gaining value through extra cards (card advantage), we're instead gaining value by reusing cards we already have available to us (zero disadvantage), and the best way to do that is by having a commander that functions as a means to that end i.e. a value engine.

I'll be exploring mono white commanders more as I go along, and I believe that cards like this are a step towards making this color more approachable. The flavor of this card is that of the captain of a borderland outpost, constantly scouting for danger and always ready to ride out and defend anyone at risk. The Scout typing helps cement down the Scry aspect, and her willingness to protect those she sees at threat is visible through both her having flash and her ability to rescue a creature. I debated between making the rescue two mana and pumping her to a 1/4, but I think all things considered she's fine where she is.

I'll be back for experiment #2 soon. Let me know your thoughts.

Changelog

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12/17/19-Creature Type Update
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Pai La, Outpost Captain — Human Nomad >>> Human Scout (original intended typing)
Last edited by Subject16 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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SecretInfiltrator
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

I personally think allowing scry in white is a good idea. It helps whites limited card draw to be more meaningful while keeping the existing venues of card advantage (e. g. cantrips and N-for-1 removal) meaningful as a way to access the scried cards. The largest issue with the card-draw cards is that outright drawing cards can allow white to accumulate man< answers all at once. This reminds me more of Endless Horizons's first ability to thin out your deck.

The combination with self-bounce/flickering is a good combination. I'm not certain for the cost, but I can get behind the concept.
Subject16 wrote:
4 years ago
The Scout typing helps cement down the Scry aspect, and her willingness to protect those she sees at threat is visible through both her having flash and her ability to rescue a creature.
You may have actually forgotten about that. To me she looks like a Human Nomad.

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Post by Subject16 » 4 years ago

[mention]SecretInfiltrator[/mention] yes, that was my fault for refering to an older version of this card on MSE. Giving her a Scout typing makes more sense to me at least.

Experiment 2: Keywords Matter

When Kwende, Pride of Femeref was printed I saw a very interesing opportunity: One where 'keyword tribal' can become an archetype. What kinds of advantages can be given if all your creatures share keywords? We've seen commanders go this route before in the forms of Isperia the Inscrutable, Arcades, the Strategist and Stonebrow, Krosan Hero so the question is: Why should flying and defender have all the fun? I challenged myself to design some wedge colored commanders to explore keyword tribal. I'll provide a quick rundown for each one. I have yet to figure out my Jeskai design, and either way putting five cards up in a row ruins the formatting, so here are four.


Arstel the Quick
1GUR
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior
Flash
You may cast creature cards with haste as though they had flash.
Creatures with flash you control have haste.
Whenever a creature you control with flash or haste deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on that creature and draw a card.
3/3
Issadrin, Webmother
3BGU
Legendary Creature — Spider Horror
Reach
At the beginning of your end step, create X 1/2 green Spider creature tokens with reach, where X is half the number of creature cards with flying in your graveyard, rounded up.
GUB, Exile a creature with flying from your graveyard: Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature with reach you control.
3/7
Zadal, Palace Escort
1WBG
Legendary Creature — Human Soldier
Vigilance
3, Sacrifice another creature: Exile target creature. Return it to the battlefield tapped under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.
Creatures you control with vigilance have persist. (When that creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
4/3
Doman, Raid Captain
1RWB
Legendary Creature — Orc Knight
Exalted (Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, that creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.)
Creatures you control with fear, intimidate or menace get +1/+1.
Whenever a creature you control attacks alone, it gains your choice of fear, intimidate, or menace until end of turn and defending player sacrifices a creature.
4/4


Arstel the Quick is my take on the two mechanics that embody speed for me: flash and haste. There's a sort of incoherence to giving flash to creatures with haste and vice-versa that can make deciding when to cast them confusing, but the takeaway is that both mechanics meshing together provide a great amount of versatility to your deck and let you choose when to be proactive or reactive. The draw/buff on contact is to encourage the idea of "building up momentum" to eventually overwhelm your opponents with how speedily you are playing.

Issadrin, Webmother is partly a take on Spider tribal, but with a twist different to Ishkanah. Flying is a keyword that's received a ton of support as opposed to all the others, but in this card it is actually the fuel to buff its natural enemy: Reach. Being able to hatch an army of spiders from having flying creatures in your graveyard means you don't need to limit your deckbuilding to the ideal reach//flying ratio, and feeding said flyers to your reach army fits well with the spider mindset. My worry right now is that I don't actually see much of a reason to not make this about just Spiders. A change of creature type and in that case relative function might be necessary.

Zadal, Palace Escort is my take on Vigilance tribal. It's an offensive tool that allows you to attack unabated, and what better way to reinforce that idea than by making vigilant creatures even more resilient though persist. Persist has a better flavor pairing with vigilance than undying, and working with -1/-1 counter synergies would be more interesting to me than another Abzan +1/+1 counter commander. The blink effect can work to reset the counters on vigilant creatures, or blink valuable ETB creatures by using your vigilance creatures as free fodder. I suspect that this card might be the easiest of them all to break with cards like Vizier of Remedies or Cathar's Crusade.

Doman, Raid Captain does what Mardu is designed for, which is hit hard and disrupt. In this case we're working with not just one mechanic, but rather multiple iterations of a mechanic we'll dub as "aggressive evasion". Providing an anthem effect to fear/intimidate/menace makes them even more of a pain to block, and the Exalted function to force a sacrifice makes the evasion ever more brutal. An ideal pairing would be saboteur effects and payoffs for killing creatures.


What do you think of these styles of commanders? And which keywords would you mash together for Jeskai?

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Post by Morpic_Tide » 4 years ago

"Keyword Tribal", like conventional subtype tribal, has the issue of running into unintended interactions from cases not thought about too closely, and can run into issues of there not actually being enough support in the colors chosen, or too much accidental support for side effects. More specifically:
Subject16 wrote:
4 years ago
Arstel the Quick
Bloodbraid Elf, Craterhoof Behemoth, Briarpack Alpha, Shambleshark, and Pestermite are a few to demonstrate some issues. There's a lot of Haste cards that go off the rails with Flash, turning into absurdly efficient defensive tools (every Lighting creature), and the reverse with existing Flash creatures-with-ETB turning into much larger aggressive swings because of how you can stack them. Storm properties become far more of an issue when you allow Haste creatures to contribute to a blocking Shambleshark or a reactive Grapeshot, and Blue has a lot of controlling Flash effects that turn into rather large aggressive swings for their mana cost.

Rather than necessarily being balls-in aggression, there's a lot to do with a hypercontrol "break your fist on my face" deck built around this, particularly as there's no increased cost, so you just get all that efficient Red Haste as blockers whenever you need it, Green ramp to fund everything and Blue for actual control. Wilderness Reclamation, Nature's Will and Awakening are three of the biggest offenders for anything that gives mass Flash and allows Green, and Nature's Will in particular turns it into a prison deck by shutting off enemy mana with astonishing amounts of creature spam on tap. Which Red has a number of tools for, including Ground Rift, Gruul Charm and Falter, cards that synergise well with Blue on-hit effects, including the offered card draw.

The big thing is that you're making two high value keywords equivalent to eachother. Haste and Flash are almost never on overall good statlines, because of how dangerous they are to put there. If it were paying for Haste and for Flash, it'd be far less a problem, as it isn't automatic. Could be two mana per, which is where a lot of the Haste-granting lives, but in general it takes a lot of efficient attackers in Red and turns them into flashed-in defenders.
Issadrin, Webmother
The main things that concern me about this are that it comes online relatively late and wants a deck that doesn't fit those colors well, in the sense that it wants the deck to have a lot of creatures with Flying printed on them. To the effect of a far more restrictive Spider Spawning at the end of each of your turns when you get it out and a costly (due to color needs) buff effect that lowers your token rate, provided it isn't blown up to keep your probably-Dredge-and-Surveil-accelerated deck from properly going off.

The token generation essentially requires more Flying creatures than the colors can expect to support while still being efficient, and you have to be in a position to still be able to win when you first hit six mana. In Green, this isn't that bad, but when you have to go for a highly off-color deck setup to do it, it starts to become an issue. Additionally, there really isn't anything on the card that reads as Blue, making a sizable portion of its color identity look to be entirely about getting access to fueling its own ability off of Surveil and cheap Blue flyers.

Rather than sticking to the Sultai-color pattern of graveyard-packing acceleration and card selection, I'd go for a slower, more control-oriented take on the mix. Have the token generation be "Whenever a flying creature enters the graveyard, put a 1/2 green Spider creature token with Reach", which makes room for adding a third ability to justify the Blue in the color identity with a tapdown effect of some description while still feeding off of Dredge and such, yet in a fashion that doesn't care about graveyard-clearing hate and desires the removal of Black and (since it's Flyers) Green.
Zadal, Palace Escort
The thing you mentioned about not being yet another +1/+1 Abzan Commander is the problem. These are the three colors with the most ability to deal with the downside of Persist, meaning it turns into not merely a highly aggressive deck that relentlessly attacks, but a highly aggressive deck that can repeatedly throw away many of its own creatures without them basically ever staying dead, including a lot of rather large Angels of considerable power.

Everything that gives +1/+1 counters resets Persist. Kazandu Blademaster's a noteworthy outlier for being an infinite sac outlet, alongside Steadfast Sentry. Daghatar the Adamant, the very sort of Commander you were wanting to avoid, turns into a farce for getting new counters on ETB, countering the Persist downside directly and being able to hand out more of them. Any way of getting Persist onto something that'll get a +1/+1 counter becomes infinite sacrifices, with access to Black outlets, including using Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit if the Persisting creature is your lowest Toughness, and if you're getting Vigilance as a static property on the Bolster ETBs, then the same thing happens. Alongside the mono-green Graft. And literally every other innate +1/+1 counter creature, like Fabricate.

The basic premise of this one is flawed because of how many ways it turns into riskless mass attacks without ending, ceaseless blocking of arbitrarily large monsters, and infinite Aristocrat triggers. In this case, Undying is the far better option because it shuts off once there's +1/+1 counters, making it so that a large part of the value of the Commander stops being there with the usual Abzan strategy, making it so you'll accept Proliferate and extra counters if they're side benefits, but you'll want to instead focus on the ETB and death value to maximize your Commander's output. Much harder to continuously remove your own +1/+1 counters to sustain Undying than to continuously provide them to sustain Persist.
Doman, Raid Captain
The thing here is that it isn't how Mardu actually tends to work, because Mardu's wide aggression, making the Exalted function very awkward. Much like Issadrin, its best use is a complicated-to-achieve balance of a few different mechanics, though they're far more able to synergise. Getting a wide board of Menace has a few different methods, after all, and attaching your pile of equipment to an Artifact Creature isn't that much of a stretch.

Primarily, it's a Voltron commander, but enough otherwise-useful cards with the keywords, such as Cabal Therapist and Nim Deathmantle, exist to have times where you can easily go wide. Cards like Profane Command and Angrath, Captain of Chaos give access to the ability to give the keywords to a large number of creatures, enabling a wide assault against multiple players. Including White means that cards like Giver of Runes and Emerge Unscathed allow for giving the relevant protection to become unblockable to all other than Artifacts.

Granted, for what it's intended to do (all to face, all the time, with far less ability to stop it), Iroas, God of Victory does more by granting one of the keywords to a wide board at the same CMC. Unless it's supposed to be Voltron, in which case this is competing with Zur, the Enchanter's Aura shenanigans and access to going full Prison. Overall, seems to have the least problems, but isn't entirely coherent, because Exalted is at odds with being Mardu, unless you pile on the Voltron.

---

As for a keyword-tribal Jeskai commander, copy abilities like Myriad and Artifact abilities like Fabricate (and Modular and equipment and Improvise and so on), as well as differing flavors of spell-manipulation that amount to "the spells that exist in-color" (mainly Replicate and Strive, though somehow sticking Overload on Oblivion Ring would be hillarious).

Arguments for Unearth are oddly workable, as revival mechanics are meant to be secondary in White, and flicker effects (which bypass the Unearth exile-on-exit) are in Blue and White. Especially for Phoenixes, which are the main source of Red's continued expression of revival as a secondary mechanic.

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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 4 years ago

Morpic_Tide wrote:
4 years ago
Subject16 wrote:
4 years ago
Arstel the Quick
SPOILER
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Bloodbraid Elf, Craterhoof Behemoth, Briarpack Alpha, Shambleshark, and Pestermite are a few to demonstrate some issues. There's a lot of Haste cards that go off the rails with Flash, turning into absurdly efficient defensive tools (every Lighting creature), and the reverse with existing Flash creatures-with-ETB turning into much larger aggressive swings because of how you can stack them. Storm properties become far more of an issue when you allow Haste creatures to contribute to a blocking Shambleshark or a reactive Grapeshot, and Blue has a lot of controlling Flash effects that turn into rather large aggressive swings for their mana cost.

Rather than necessarily being balls-in aggression, there's a lot to do with a hypercontrol "break your fist on my face" deck built around this, particularly as there's no increased cost, so you just get all that efficient Red Haste as blockers whenever you need it, Green ramp to fund everything and Blue for actual control. Wilderness Reclamation, Nature's Will and Awakening are three of the biggest offenders for anything that gives mass Flash and allows Green, and Nature's Will in particular turns it into a prison deck by shutting off enemy mana with astonishing amounts of creature spam on tap. Which Red has a number of tools for, including Ground Rift, Gruul Charm and Falter, cards that synergise well with Blue on-hit effects, including the offered card draw.

The big thing is that you're making two high value keywords equivalent to eachother. Haste and Flash are almost never on overall good statlines, because of how dangerous they are to put there. If it were paying for Haste and for Flash, it'd be far less a problem, as it isn't automatic. Could be two mana per, which is where a lot of the Haste-granting lives, but in general it takes a lot of efficient attackers in Red and turns them into flashed-in defenders.
We can all agree tat cards that grant haste to all creatures or flash to all castable cards are already a thing, right? And all these effects you mention can already be created by such cards, so all this really does is bring the effects together into a deck that is restricted to choices that already have these options. If anything this card is great because it opens up options like using Ball Lightning as a surprise blocker, because no matter how seemingly powerful you describe that option, I have never seen anyone use Vedalken Orrery to do that, so it cannot be that uber-play.

This card is Madrush Cyclops but very restricted to only affect creatures with flash and Vedalken Orrery but very restricted to only affect creatures with haste. Those two restrictions are very significant and for a legendary 3/3 that alone would be a little underwhelming. The triggered ability may be pushed and undercost by {1} to add to them, but may not even be - building a flash/haste deck is a hard sell and needs a significant pay-off.

I agree that the push towards aggressiveness in that last ability is a little much, but when in doubt that's preferable to a push towards stalling.

The card makes quite a lot of thematic sense. I could also have seen it in {U}{B}{R} with black now getting more flash in addition to some haste, but green is a good spot as well (also fits the triggered ability better) and three colors make sense here to get more cards into the deck from across all the colors that could have flash - and blue-green has some prolific ones.

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Post by Subject16 » 4 years ago

Concerning Arstel (Temur)
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I want to agree with SecretInfiltrator on this one. I understand that both are keywords that provide flexibility and reactability, but I wouldn't say that that's too bad a thing. Yes a deck built around this card benefits greatly from Nature's Will, Wilderness Reclamation, Seedborn Muse etc... but let's be honest: which decks don't? These are powerful cards, as long as you've built your deck right, having them resolve and stay on board is a path to victory no matter who your commander is (My Thrasios/Sidar Kondo does just that for example, as does my friend's Yeva EDH). Just because strong synergies with already powerful cards exist doesn't mean it isn't ground worth treading.

I think one thing that needs saying is that this card is much harder to spread around than other commanders, because there's no real way to grant haste to cards in your hand or to give flash to your on the battlefield creatures, your ability to expand your options as opposed to say granting Vigilance or Menace to your field is near zero. It's not like you can cast Maelstrom Wanderer at instant speed or that Vedalken Orrery now grants haste too. The most you can do is run Fervor like effects to grant the buff on damage to all your creatures.

Haste on flash creatures is an incentive to play them on your own turn, as an Addendum-like ability. Only a handful of those creatures have activated abilities, meaning your prime incentive to play flashers on your turn is for offense (granted you can give them activated abilities with something like Cryptolith Rite, and I would argue that that makes for interesting synergy and a different style of deckbuilding than what we currenly see in Temur colors). Now there are some interesting ETBs you can work with with cards like Blizzard Strix, Great Oak Guardian and the aforementioned Perstermite, and these are cards that see some amount of play and could definitely become staples for this kind of commander, but these types of cards are few and far between. There isn't much else, and perhaps that's an argument for this card being a bit too limiting on the flash side of things.

Where this does get a bit dicey is with casting haste creatures at instant speed. A conditional Leyline/Orrery from the command zone can be a very dangerous thing, and if you build this you'll very likely have all your creatures by flashy or hasty making this effectively flash for all your creatures. Now are there any creatures that immediately stand out to me as benefitting from flash. Craterhoof and similar cards do well as combat tricks , but why not just cast them and attack too? You can also flash in blockers like Questing Beast or Vengevine, but if you have a full hand and untapped mana I believe punishing people for ignoring that can be justified.

Two things for me are slighty disturbing, one being instant speed land destruction from Avalanche Riders and Goblin Ruinblaster (counterpoint: still only two cards) and that you can also flash in both Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and his notorious partner in crime Zealous Conscripts, but this combo only really wins you the game on your turn unless you have a Purphoros//Goblin Bombardment situation, but after browsing on EDHrec here are synergies I think could be very fun:
SPOILER
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• Instant speed shenanigans with Emissary of Grudges
• Cast/activate Izzet Chemister before your untap to get a guaranteed use out of it. Similary cast Hellkite Charger before your untap to attack twice on your turn without needing to wait.
Hunted Dragon: Give SOMEONE ELSE blockers.
• Cast Stalking Vengeance in response to a board wipe and become the ultimate punisher.
• Instant speed Glint-Horn Buccaneer and Bonded Fetch for looting.
• Flash in Hypersonic Dragon for a whole new level of flash.
Thundermaw Hellkite and Timbermare can clear the field of blockers for you to alpha strike with no trouble.
I think these abilities aren't as bad as you might make them out to be if that were all Arstel did. I think pairing them with the "draw on connecting" trigger as well might push it a bit beyond the scope of what's reasonable. If there's anything I'd change about Arstel it would be this final ability as a means to curb the amount of value you can accumulate and so that you can eventually run out of gas.


Arstel the Quick
1GUR
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior
Flash
You may cast creature cards with haste as though they had flash.
Creatures with flash you control have haste.
Whenever one or more creatures you control with flash or haste deal combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on each of those creatures and draw a card.
3/3
Concerning Issadrin (Sultai)
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I see your point about this card being relatively slow and self-defeating, as well as it not feeling especially blue. I wanted an incentive to be playing flying creatures in your own deck, and it didn't turn out the way I thought. My original design for Issadrin was to sacrifice a flying creature for the +1/+1 counters, and it doesn't feel blue either. I like your idea of generating the spider on flying creatures entering the graveyard, and I think it could lead to a design that's more blue:


Issadrin, Webmother
3BGU
Legendary Creature — Spider Horror
Reach
At the beginning of your end step, put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control with reach. Each player puts that many cards from the top of their library into their graveyard.
Whenever a creature with flying is put into a graveyard from anywhere, create a 1/2 green Spider creature token with reach.
3/7

Milling isn't the BEST strategy there is, but I think there's a precedent for it if you have a large enough spider army and that they also get bigger every time. I pondered over whether to make Issadrin only mill opponents or have it be all players, and I think her have you mill yourself opens up some better pathways, especially as a lot of spider cards like Ishkanah, Nyx Weaver and Spider Spawning all deal with your graveyard as well. Getting rid of the activated ability turns her into a more grindy commander, one that better fits the idea of a spider slowly ensnaring you in its web as her children feast on your mind.
Concerning Zadhel (Abzan)
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I think you're unfortunately right on this one. In trying to avoid +1/+1 synergies, I created something that thrives off them to create infinite value. I think there are ways to dumb this down and still end up with a powerful commander, one more focused on being strong attackers instead of recurring pawns.


Zadal, Palace Escort
1WBG
Legendary Creature — Human Soldier
Vigilance
2, Sacrifice another creature: Creatures you control get +1/+2 and gain trample until end of turn.
Other creatures you control with vigilance have undying. (When that creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)
4/3
Concerning Doman (Mardu)
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I think you hit the nail on the head with Exalted. It doesn't fit the idea of the card at all. Menace, Fear and Intimidate all make blocking harder because you only have so many blockers to put in front of the oncoming attackers, and having only one attacker makes that entirely pointless. What's more, Doman's second ability is an anthem, something to incentivize and encourage having a wider board. I want to take Doman into a more go-wide direction that pushes for aggressivity (which when you look at Mardu commanders only Edgar Markov takes the spot here).


Doman, Raid Captain
2RWB
Legendary Creature — Orc Warrior
Menace
Other creatures you control with fear, intimidate or menace get +1/+1.
Whenever one or more creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, destroy target nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to or less than the amount of damage dealt this way.
4/4


This version of Doman (bumped up to 5CMC for the ability, and made a Warrior now because Knight doesn't fit the flavor) is more focused on a war of attrition type deck. Push through with damage, destroy something important to them. Attack attack attack. I thought about finding a way for Doman to generate tokens to fuel the mayhem he'll bring, but I think enough anthems and evasion strats and you can start wearing down opponents in no time.
As for the Jeskai quandary, I have been toying with the idea of Experiment Kraj but for First Strike and Double Strike and it doesn't seem too gross. I have also thought about non-evergreen mechanics that have seen multiple printings like Cycling and Kicker, but haven't thought of anything worth exploring yet.

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