MTGNexus

Well I'll propose a list for Jeskai, but keep in mind that UR Twin was my love, and Jeskai never really appealed to me. That said, I've had some experience with T3feri, so here goes:

It's based off of old Jeskai Twin lists I could find. What do y'all think?

I chose to exclude any Celestial Colonnade, because I feel that it's a bit outdated at this point. Obviously this list doesn't include the SB Stoneblade package, but maybe it should?

I think it should, yeah. Probably takes the place of Wall, Resto, and Kiki. And I think we do still want Colonnade and even Mystic Sanctuary here, this deck is relying less on the combo since it has better control elements. Here's my first draft, with the idea of putting SFM in the board:

The idea is playing more like a Jeskai Control deck, with the combo as an "oh %$#%" button against unfair decks. Against fair decks, you side out the Twin combo and bring in SFM to fight better on that axis.

Oh.. Huh... Would this deck want Giver of Runes?

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Oh.. Huh... Would this deck want Giver of Runes?

I have absolutely no idea. xD It's not really a control card, so it would probably fit better into a build with the Stoneblade package mainboard.

Giver of Runes does nothing against red cards, btw. It is appealing in something green based featuring the combo, in a Ux shell certainly less.

According to my experience, Grixis is better suited at playing the Control role. Jeskai is good at being the aggressor, running more Bolts, Path for fatties and a real sideboard, other than T3feri to protect the combo and deal with annoyances.

I've got two lists in my mind.




L1:





The other list simply plays more on he board, similarly to the Jeskai Saheeli deck I'm currently crushing with,

L2:








The Stoneforge package isn't very appealing to me. Wall + Resto is outdated. I'm very unsure about Mystic Santuary,

Yeah, I don't like SFM in the main because it leaves so little room for interaction, but I think it's a pretty good idea for a sideboard plan. Like I said, the things Twin is bad against are generally things SFM is good against, so you can just swap the packages.

I don't know about that.

Stoneforge package is very medium against BGx, the combo is already strong against aggressive strategies. We may need grindy cards and cheap removals in the sideboard, imho. Especially the second list, is already geared toward a grindy environment.

You may be right, but I know people would dismiss any Jeskai list we build that doesn't include SFM in it, because that's one of the major concerns people voice with Twin being unbanned, along with T3feri. I think the Jeskai build needs to include both so we can answer those concerns.

We should consider both in the test deck and in the opponent's deck some sideboard slots for twin itself.

Then I'd like to share my first draft of a temur build. I started from the last legal building and tinker it with new additions.

For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.

In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.

It doesn't even NEED adjustments. I mean, with the printing of Push, T3feri and lots of other maindeck cards which are played in the meta game that interact with the combo it just looks silly.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.

In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.

That's a gross misrepresentation of what's being talked in the other thread. Listing what's effective is NOT the same as saying you MUST have all of the above to even have a chance.

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.

Playing a couple of rending volley and/or Fry is already enough for me. It's not warping, but is "respecting" a deck using a sideboard slot for more than one match up (Fry can be played against both Urza and UW). Just wanted to be sure to have a good sample deck and have a sort of rapresentative gauntlet.

Tzoulis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

For sure, we're going to try to envision what decks might do if Twin was like 5 or 6% of the meta. So we don't want to warp current lists around Twin, but just make some small adjustments. For instance, with Burn we're playing 1 Exquisite Firecraft, which already sees some play, and 1 Rending Volley, which is less common now, but was played more in 2015.

Save your Temur list for me, we're going to get to that and also Grixis, but let's figure out what we want to do with Jeskai before we move on.

In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.

That's a gross misrepresentation of what's being talked in the other thread. Listing what's effective is NOT the same as saying you MUST have all of the above to even have a chance.

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.

I just think it's silly to complain about the "warping" of a deck that is easily interacted with using traditional, main deck tools like discard, counters and removal. But then also say that another deck, which requires multiple, narrow answers, that are all different, and none of which are that effective individually, just highlights how much mindsets have changed with regards to what is and is not OK for Modern.

Also Fry is considerably better since it hits a number of relevant targets. People who complained that rending volley was warping, we're probably playing Decks that chose not to interact on any meaningful axis, and we're hoping that to sideboard running volleys would be enough for that matchup. Abrupt Decay is also a card many have forgotten about.

Now: does Corridor Monitor belong to the deck? I admit I didn't know of this card!

Mikefon wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Now: does Corridor Monitor belong to the deck? I admit I didn't know of this card!

It doesn't speed up the combo (Twin on turn 4 regardless), so the flash + tap abilities are much more relevant.

Tzoulis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.

Rending Volley isn't that narrow of a card anymore. It kills Urza, Sai, Emry, SFM, Thing in the Ice, almost every creature in Humans and Spirits, Vizier, Soulherder, and Storm's dorks. So Burn running something like that or Fry because of Twin is not narrow or warping, because those cards hit a lot of the format. I had people in /r/lavaspike tell me they thought Burn players would start playing Fry anyway, because it's good against so much of the format.

Wraithpk wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Tzoulis wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If you want to be pedantic, why should decks have a such a restrictive removal (Rending Volley) solely for the purpose of combating Twin? Isn't that warping? If that' "warping" is acceptable what's your problem in having specific hate for Urza, where other than Deafening Silence, everything else has multiple applications.

Rending Volley isn't that narrow of a card anymore. It kills Urza, Sai, Emry, SFM, Thing in the Ice, almost every creature in Humans and Spirits, Vizier, Soulherder, and Storm's dorks. So Burn running something like that or Fry because of Twin is not narrow or warping, because those cards hit a lot of the format. I had people in /r/lavaspike tell me they thought Burn players would start playing Fry anyway, because it's good against so much of the format.

Operative word "now". "Everyone" was fine about that back then, but specific hate pieces now are frowned upon?

On topic, I'd use Into the Story in the grindy slot, either main or SB, I understand it's not a repeatable CA on a stick (Keranos or Jace) but keeping mana up always, plus Snapcaster should at least be considered.

Even back in 2015 you had Merfolk, Delver, Thalia, Electromancer, and Blighted Agent. Twin was the reason the card saw play, but it still had applications against several other decks. But I don't want to get into this kind of discussion here, let's keep this stuff in the State of Modern thread.

As for Into the Story, I could see it in a Grixis shell maybe. You probably already want Thought Scour in that deck to power out Tasigur, so maybe you want that and Drown in the Loch. I don't think you want it without Thought Scour, though.

But what's everyone's opinion on where SFM should be in a Jeskai build? Should the Twin and SFM package both be main, or should SFM be a sideboard plan for when the combo is bad?

But what's everyone's opinion on where SFM should be in a Jeskai build? Should the Twin and SFM package both be main, or should SFM be a sideboard plan for when the combo is bad?

I understand your point of wanting to show off what TwinBlade could do. Seriously.

IMHO, Stoneblade is just bad in this deck. And by 'bad', I mean unplayable.

In case, it's much better maindeck anyway. Like, take my last Jeskai list, cut the Mancers and the Helixes (going to 4 Bolts), put it 4 Stoneforge + Skull + Sword.

Like I said, you might be right, but we're going to have to prove that to people, because SFM and T3feri are the hot anti-Twin unban talking points now.

Yep, there's no rush dude, take care of whatever you've got going on, we'll be here

By the way, in case assistance is needed for the play test, I may find a spot too.

What I can cover, as I played with profit in the recent past:


- Grixis/Esper Shadow
- Any Delver strategy
- Mardu Pyromancer
- Any Uxx Control
- Saheeli in all of its forms (Snow, Jeskai, Midrange)


If you'll ever need someone joining, let me know and I'll try to make space in my agenda.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

In context of today's meta, it's kind of silly to think of what people used to consider "warping." Against Twin, the things that are good are like creature removal, discard spells, and counterspells. And then sometimes people had 1-2 slots in the side for like a Spellskite and a singleton Volley. Meanwhile, the State of the Format thread is talking about how Whirza needs GY hate, artifact hate, sweepers, targeted removal, needle effects, and exile-based answers, while simultaneously not losing to any one of them individually. It's really quite breathtaking of a contrast going back and forth between threads.

This thread is for discussing Twin lists and test results, not debating the validity of the ban or specific elements of the ban (e.g. whether something is "warping"). Take that to the State of Modern thread. OP edited to reflect this policy.