Re: Is White getting better?
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:44 pm
We can already play instant speed Armageddon though. Cantripping and uncounterable, even.
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It's not one-sided though. That's kind of important. (also it's 7 mana)3drinks wrote: ↑2 years agoWe can already play instant speed Armageddon though. Cantripping and uncounterable, even.
Those cards were intentionally exaggerated and obviously not intended to be final; as if WotC would ever entertain the possibility of MLD again, let alone an instant one. (we already have Decree of Annihilation)DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
Lol those are so insanely broken. 6 mana destroy all enemy lands as an instant? You think 9 mana destroy all enemy permanents is LESS reliable than expropriate? I mean I hate expropriate too but it's not THAT stupid. Y'all in here trying to make white the "kill on sight" color lmao.
I don't think there's any way to tweak those sorts of effects to be remotely positive for the game. Asymmetric unconditional land wipes should not exist at any mana cost.Cyberium wrote: ↑2 years agoThose cards were intentionally exaggerated and obviously not intended to be final; as if WotC would ever entertain the possibility of MLD again, let alone an instant one. (we already have Decree of Annihilation)
I personally don't feel that white needs a big cc game ending spell as much as smaller, more consistent cards across the board, those are the backbone of decks more so than a game-ender.
Agreed. I think the format as a whole could do with far fewer "I suddenly win on the stack" cards across all colors. Adding more to white will make it unreliable and could make its average game worse as people see it as an unpredictable threat.
I think W needs both, personally. I understand the sentiment of people not liking these types of "pay a ton of mana to close out the game" cards in general, but they do already exist in the format for other colors, so W should get some too. W doesn't need a ton of cards like this, just a couple.Cyberium wrote: ↑2 years agoThose cards were intentionally exaggerated and obviously not intended to be final; as if WotC would ever entertain the possibility of MLD again, let alone an instant one. (we already have Decree of Annihilation)DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
Lol those are so insanely broken. 6 mana destroy all enemy lands as an instant? You think 9 mana destroy all enemy permanents is LESS reliable than expropriate? I mean I hate expropriate too but it's not THAT stupid. Y'all in here trying to make white the "kill on sight" color lmao.
I personally don't feel that white needs a big cc game ending spell as much as smaller, more consistent cards across the board, those are the backbone of decks more so than a game-ender.
I would disagree with this, personally. I don't think G having Craterhoof or U having Expropriate and Cyclonic Rift has made their average game worse. This isn't about giving W an edge over the other colors with some tool they don't have, just about giving W a couple more more high-value "close out the game" effects on par with what's available in other colors.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years agoAgreed. I think the format as a whole could do with far fewer "I suddenly win on the stack" cards across all colors. Adding more to white will make it unreliable and could make its average game worse as people see it as an unpredictable threat.
They both have a lot of the "smaller, more consistent cards" you disparage to make such wins reliable. I've also seen decks that ran on "I either draw my Big Win or durdle and lose" and they got punished for the possibility of winning out of nowhere, in addition to just stagnating from bad luck.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years agoI would disagree with this, personally. I don't think G having Craterhoof or U having Expropriate and Cyclonic Rift has made their average game worse. This isn't about giving W an edge over the other colors with some tool they don't have, just about giving W a couple more more high-value "close out the game" effects on par with what's available in other colors
Where have I "disparaged" those cards? That's putting words in my mouth and is frankly a bit rude. In that same post I said W also needs more of the low-to-the-ground, consistent cards, so I'm clearly not disparaging them.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years agoThey both have a lot of the "smaller, more consistent cards" you disparage to make such wins reliable. I've also seen decks that ran on "I either draw my Big Win or durdle and lose" and they got punished for the possibility of winning out of nowhere, in addition to just stagnating from bad luck.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years agoI would disagree with this, personally. I don't think G having Craterhoof or U having Expropriate and Cyclonic Rift has made their average game worse. This isn't about giving W an edge over the other colors with some tool they don't have, just about giving W a couple more more high-value "close out the game" effects on par with what's available in other colors
I too prefer white having cheaper spells which, while taking more twist and turn, can be incorporated easier into their usual arsenal, such as Angel of Destiny.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years ago
I would disagree with this, personally. I don't think G having Craterhoof or U having Expropriate and Cyclonic Rift has made their average game worse. This isn't about giving W an edge over the other colors with some tool they don't have, just about giving W a couple more more high-value "close out the game" effects on par with what's available in other colors.
To be clear, I'm not envisioning some spell that's like "7WWW: Win the game out of nowhere", just a couple more bomb cards which can convert a reasonable board state into a win that turn if not answered immediately.
I think this is a little harsh. I am a diehard mono-W player (I've got 2 mono-W decks and working on a third) and I feel pretty good about the trajectory of the color. W simply can't get draw equal to other colors because W's answer suite is too good. W has great removal tools for every kind of permanent, which is very meaningful in EDH. If W could draw better than R, for example, while possessing a much more versatile removal suite, that's a problem.Sinis wrote: ↑2 years agoWelp, that's it for me. White is truly never going to catch up.
"We don't want to take away space from other colours", ok, so, why is blue allowed to get Ravenform and Hullbreacher, Simic got Oversimplify, black got Opposition Agent (take that, Aven Mindcensor), and green got basically everything non-wipe under the sun?
Honestly, the designers and the state of white are... idk. It's hard to treat them charitably anymore.
Sanctuary Warden is 6 mana, mate. I would like development cards that you can leverage during the actual development part of the game.
Perhaps shockingly, effects can be costed at prices other than the very first example of a type. The point being made is that "more cards like that" can be made, not that it's all 6 mana fatties going forward.Sinis wrote: ↑2 years agoSanctuary Warden is 6 mana, mate. I would like development cards that you can leverage during the actual development part of the game.
Like, nobody plays Phyrexian Gargantua, and I know Sanctuary warden is better statted and has a higher ceiling, but... really.
Sanctuary Warden is Standard-playable, and a form of EDH that says "this card is unplayable because it's 6 mana" is not the kind of EDH I'd care to play, personally. Anyways, Warden is WAY better than Gargantua & the reason nobody plays Gargantua is that B has a huge amount of great draw options. You're comparing apples and oranges here. If Gargantua was a W card it likely would see play in some mono W decks because W is so hard up for card draw.Sinis wrote: ↑2 years agoSanctuary Warden is 6 mana, mate. I would like development cards that you can leverage during the actual development part of the game.
Like, nobody plays Phyrexian Gargantua, and I know Sanctuary warden is better statted and has a higher ceiling, but... really.
First, my point is that I don't think Sanctuary Warden is exciting because I want more than a two-turn Divination before we're leveraging 6-mana spells. I'm not saying that a card with 6 mana value has to be backbreaking, but it can't be "draw 2, but slowly". I'm not even saying "you have to wait til turn 6 to leverage this". I'm saying "other 6 mana spells will develop more than this, or will be dire threats." When you look at what other colours get for six mana, I think you'll agree slow-divination-with-wings isn't stellar, even though the shield counters are worth more than we're discussing, here.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years agoSanctuary Warden is Standard-playable, and a form of EDH that says "this card is unplayable because it's 6 mana" is not the kind of EDH I'd care to play, personally. Anyways, Warden is WAY better than Gargantua & the reason nobody plays Gargantua is that B has a huge amount of great draw options. You're comparing apples and oranges here. If Gargantua was a W card it likely would see play in some mono W decks because W is so hard up for card draw.
My Angel tribal deck with Giada can pretty easily have a T4 Sanctuary Warden & that's plenty early for a 10-12 turn game.
I would not bank on more of the same effect. Mentor of the Meek|ISD was originally printed in Innistrad, which was late 2011. We got Welcoming Vampire 10 years later. Dawn of Hope was 2018 and has never seen subsequent thing in that vein.Wallycaine wrote: ↑2 years agoPerhaps shockingly, effects can be costed at prices other than the very first example of a type. The point being made is that "more cards like that" can be made, not that it's all 6 mana fatties going forward.
Sanctuary Warden is super exciting. It's not "Draw 2, but slowly". It's a big beater that includes a draw and token generation engine, it has excellent ETB value for flickering/recurring from the GY, and it is highly resilient to removal. W very rarely gets draw engines, so this is a pretty cool card. As a big mono-W guy, it's one of my favorite cards of the whole set.Sinis wrote: ↑2 years agoFirst, my point is that I don't think Sanctuary Warden is exciting because I want more than a two-turn Divination before we're leveraging 6-mana spells. I'm not saying that a card with 6 mana value has to be backbreaking, but it can't be "draw 2, but slowly". I'm not even saying "you have to wait til turn 6 to leverage this". I'm saying "other 6 mana spells will develop more than this, or will be dire threats." When you look at what other colours get for six mana, I think you'll agree slow-divination-with-wings isn't stellar, even though the shield counters are worth more than we're discussing, here.
Second, emphasis mine: This is my whole point. White's draw is so incredibly awful that we'll take a card that would normally be unplayable and say "hey, look, White draw!" Should White really be this bad at drawing cards?
I suppose we are talking past each other: I don't think white should be as bad at card draw as it is. I think we differ in our opinions about how things ought to be.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years agoTo your last point, if you printed "Worse Aura Blast - 1RR - Instant: Destroy target enchantment", that would be absolutely unplayably bad by W standards and you would never see it in any WR deck, but mono-R decks would consider running it, because mono-R is really really really bad at dealing with enchantments.
I also don't think W should be as bad at draw as it is, which is why I have expressed my optimism in this thread that W appears to be getting a number of new draw effects over the past year. I just don't think it needs to be as good at drawing as other colors. If W gets to the point where it's solidly last in draw, but "solidly last in draw" still means you can keep cards flowing reliably throughout a 10+ turn game so you can have fun, that will be fine.Sinis wrote: ↑2 years agoI suppose we are talking past each other: I don't think white should be as bad at card draw as it is. I think we differ in our opinions about how things ought to be.TheTuna wrote: ↑2 years agoTo your last point, if you printed "Worse Aura Blast - 1RR - Instant: Destroy target enchantment", that would be absolutely unplayably bad by W standards and you would never see it in any WR deck, but mono-R decks would consider running it, because mono-R is really really really bad at dealing with enchantments.
I like the first two. Like, Archivist is almost guaranteed to draw at least one card, making it pretty cantrippy. I think BAoT is really good, and I hope that retail price doesn't sustain, because I think it's a great white design with real EDH scaling at a bargain mana cost. I feel like both those cards are a leap in the right direction, and am happy to eat my pessimistic words from a couple of months ago.NZB2323 wrote: ↑2 years agoArchivist of Oghma, Battle Angels of Tyr, and Roving Harper are the right cards to add to white.