Re: Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange
Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:49 am
Id have sworn I out a copy aside to add in to my list, but it isn't in there.
Magic the Gathering Resources, Tools, Previews, and Community.
https://www.mtgnexus.com/
Personally I think its better than Bidding. ETB tapped doesn't matter really, unless your meta is combat heavy. Bidding having the chance of being symmetric rather than asymmetric is a bit rough to me. Your opponents will always choose something. Besides, Apocalypse can sometimes be a wipe too; it's not that common, but I know there's a ton of hatebears in humans, so taking the chance to get them gone every now and then seems worth it to me.Reya wrote: ↑1 year agoWhat do you think of simply cutting Zombie Apocalypse for Cosmic Intervention ? It's 6 mana, heavy black cost and everything enter tapped. (Well, destroying all humans is a relevant upside in EDH).
It's our worst mass reanimation spell. Cosmic allows more powerful lines and powerful interactions with fetches. I can see maybe one downside of Cosmic. On an empty board it's a terrible draw and you can't do infinites loops with it (you always need to wait EOT).
Other point, I see we all don't play a lot of interactions like spot removals. Do you feel the need of playing more than 1 or 2 cards of that kind ? I kept 2 spot removals in my Varina list for more than two years. But now, with a lot of discussion here and a lot of testing, I feel that only one Chain of Vapor could be enough (again, thanks pokken!). But it feels still strange to not run Anguished Unmaking anymore. This card can solve so many issues. Problem is 3 mana.
Swan Song has always been pretty great for me, I could see running Offer instead; Treasures can't block your zombies. But, y'know, it's not that critical, either is fine.pokken wrote: ↑1 year agoI think chain of vapor and cyclonic rift is enough general purpose spot removal. If rift ever gets a reprint I'll probably add it over one of my counterspells or murderous rider.
I'd play a swords to plowshares before unmaking or void rend. I just don't want to be removing things. It's not what this deck wants to do.
Mostly we want very cheap handful of stack interaction everything 2cmc or less because we want to almost tap out for zombies every turn
Swan song or offer are decent options too.
Wow that feels like an over the top amount of removal to me. Remind me what your game plan is?Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoI think I am a possible outlier in terms of the amount of removal I am packing in my Varina deck. Though my playgroup is also very interactive and you need ways to deal with their threats before they skate on you. Currently my list contains:
Despark
Anguished unmaking
Void rend
Lethal scheme
Vanishing verse
Damn
Rite of oblivion.
The good thing about it I feel like I am never that far away from dealing with any sort of permanent on the field. This also on top of having six boardwipes in the deck
It may seem like that but in my meta everyone packs a good amount of removal. The plan of the deck is like many we have seen here swing with zombies to loot zombies into the yard then mass reanimate with the combination of gray merchant, corpse knight, wayward servant, vengeful dead & plague belcher to finish off anybody left alivepokken wrote: ↑1 year agoWow that feels like an over the top amount of removal to me. Remind me what your game plan is?Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoI think I am a possible outlier in terms of the amount of removal I am packing in my Varina deck. Though my playgroup is also very interactive and you need ways to deal with their threats before they skate on you. Currently my list contains:
Despark
Anguished unmaking
Void rend
Lethal scheme
Vanishing verse
Damn
Rite of oblivion.
The good thing about it I feel like I am never that far away from dealing with any sort of permanent on the field. This also on top of having six boardwipes in the deck
Hmm. That's interesting. What I have found playing in metas like that is you can kinda attack them with this deck which is aggro-combo, by shaving down to the bare minimum interaction and being more able to establish your early game with things that are undesirable to remove (e.g. cheap zombies).Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoIt may seem like that but in my meta everyone packs a good amount of removal. The plan of the deck is like many we have seen here swing with zombies to loot zombies into the yard then mass reanimate with the combination of gray merchant, corpse knight, wayward servant, vengeful dead & plague belcher to finish off anybody left alive
While I appreciate your thinking on optimizing the deck I like where the level my deck is currently.pokken wrote: ↑1 year agoHmm. That's interesting. What I have found playing in metas like that is you can kinda attack them with this deck which is aggro-combo, by shaving down to the bare minimum interaction and being more able to establish your early game with things that are undesirable to remove (e.g. cheap zombies).Rframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoIt may seem like that but in my meta everyone packs a good amount of removal. The plan of the deck is like many we have seen here swing with zombies to loot zombies into the yard then mass reanimate with the combination of gray merchant, corpse knight, wayward servant, vengeful dead & plague belcher to finish off anybody left alive
If I were you I would consider *at minimum* replacing all the "bad" removal with countermagic; things I consider bad are:
1) anything sorcery speed
2) anything with 3 cmc or higher cost
3) anything 2 cmc or higher that only hits creatures or is narrow somehow (e.g. Vanishing Verse)
If you're already loaded up on countermagic consider more card draw/selection in those slots. And definitely run Chain of Vapor if you can.
re: countermagic suite
I consider the hierarchy for Varina to be, in order (although price is a factor ofc)
Obviously ymmv, and I think it's possible to build a Varina deck that can support Force of Will if you really try.
It looks solid all in all, bit hefty on the curve side but that pays off with mass reanimation sometimes. I think my favorite bit of spice is Ashiok, Dream Render -- milling yourself 4 and grave hating everyone else is pretty niceRframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoWhile I appreciate your thinking on optimizing the deck I like where the level my deck is currently.
Decklist right here: https://www.archidekt.com/partial-compa ... alQuantity
I have found that going full in on the combo line with Haakon isn't where I want to be with the deck. Counters can go in some of my other control decks. I do plan on adding creatures so I can start playing Tormod again
I like your hierarchy.pokken wrote: ↑1 year agore: countermagic suite
I consider the hierarchy for Varina to be, in order (although price is a factor ofc)
I think it's possible to build a Varina deck that can support Force of Will if you really try.
I can't really get myself on Swan Song train because I just find I care too much about creatures; I can't let someone resolve something like an Agent of Treachery or Gilded Drake, so I prioritize generic spells and free ones. Also just so many crazy ass bombs now.plaganegra wrote: ↑1 year agoI like your hierarchy.
Personally I value the 1cmc counterspells >> 2cmc counterspells though because of how much I tap out.
Intersting idea here. How many blue cards do you think would support FoW? I have thought about it and just assumed this build was impossible.
I actually don't have any counterspells that cost more than 1 mana currently which is actually the primary reason I am interested in FoW and have never tried mana drain. I have never included mana drain in my list because of the double blue cost and the 2cmc. Do you think I should run Mana Drain? If I were to add any 2cmc counters it would probably be that
That is what I like about playing Varina. It feels like I am always adjusting the knobs and bolts of the deck. I can see that I am very much on the heavy side of removal and could go down so I have a few more early drops, which surely would help curve out better.pokken wrote: ↑1 year agoIt looks solid all in all, bit hefty on the curve side but that pays off with mass reanimation sometimes. I think my favorite bit of spice is Ashiok, Dream Render -- milling yourself 4 and grave hating everyone else is pretty niceRframpt wrote: ↑1 year agoWhile I appreciate your thinking on optimizing the deck I like where the level my deck is currently.
Decklist right here: https://www.archidekt.com/partial-compa ... alQuantity
I have found that going full in on the combo line with Haakon isn't where I want to be with the deck. Counters can go in some of my other control decks. I do plan on adding creatures so I can start playing Tormod again
I think playing sweeper heavy is reasonable to do with Varina, it's basically saying "I'm gonna sweep the board *then* play Varina" which is legitimate.
Even outside of pure optimization I think you could improve your overall experience by adjusting some of the removal package, but it's your deck
I haven't really felt the need to counter many creatures in my meta personally. Most of the big threats to my gameplan specifically come in the form of non-creature spells. The two cards you mentioned as examples wouldn't really bother me too much since they don't really end the game. They are definitely power swings, but nothing I cannot overpower. I want counterspell backup for my own game-ending turns and also outs for cards that really end the game like Expropriate and other combos. Most combos I encounter use at least one spell to go off (I know not all do though).pokken wrote: ↑1 year agoI can't really get myself on Swan Song train because I just find I care too much about creatures; I can't let someone resolve something like an Agent of Treachery or Gilded Drake, so I prioritize generic spells and free ones. Also just so many crazy ass bombs now.
Keep both? Both are awesome.pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year agoRecently, I swapped in Tormod, the Desecrator for Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver, and, I must say, I've really been digging Tormod. He really gets on well with Varina and Gravecrawler and just a bunch of other cards.
I agree on getting both in the deck. As wilhelt can make use of the tokens Tormod generates to draw some cardsdevilcatz wrote: ↑1 year agoKeep both? Both are awesome.pzbw7z wrote: ↑1 year agoRecently, I swapped in Tormod, the Desecrator for Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver, and, I must say, I've really been digging Tormod. He really gets on well with Varina and Gravecrawler and just a bunch of other cards.