MTGNexus

I just saw this and thought it should be talked about. I overall like it, the templating sounds very similar to what I proposed

This is pretty sweet to hear. I recall it coming up a while ago, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, so no complaints. Helps out commanders like Elenda, the Dusk Rose, Child of Alara and Roalesk, Apex Hybrid. As for myself, I'm looking forwards to throwing Skullclamp on Teysa, Orzhov Scion. Also cleans up the rules interactions for stuff like Blood Artist and Decree of Pain, which previously had different behavior for commanders (or at least didn't feel consistent).

Btw I have a sticky post in the main forum with more info.

cryogen wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Btw I have a sticky post in the main forum with more info.

Yeah I think maybe you can just leave this here in case people want to discuss future ramifications of it, or delete this and move the other post into here after it's run its course, whatever. No reason to split the discussion atm.

Unless I'm misunderstanding this, wouldn't this change let some 'dies' triggers track the commander card after it changes zones? Wouldn't a card like Athreos, Shroud-Veiled (which only cares about the card, not the object that doesn't track through zone change) track the card to alternate zone and then resolve correctly? Am I misunderstanding a rules interaction here?

I believe it does enable Athreos, Shroud-Veiled to yoink commanders if they get a coin counter on them. I don't think I have an issue with this. Feels like a nice feature tbh

I know cards like Grasp of Fate already do not care if they actually go to the exile zone or not for example, and will return from the command zone when they die. So seems to follow.

I do not believe we have the official templating though, so there may be some 'and cancel all triggers that would happen' verbiage, who knows.

edit: sounds like it's possible there is some corner case of multiple zone changes I am not aware of? Still lookin.

603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." (See also rule 603.10.) An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

Sounds like if I am reading that right, multiple zone changes can't be tracked by the zone-change triggers.

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

edit: sounds like it's possible there is some corner case of multiple zone changes I am not aware of? Still lookin.

603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the game. These are written as, but aren't limited to, "When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . ." or "Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . ." (See also rule 603.10.) An ability that attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone "from anywhere" is never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the battlefield.

Sounds like if I am reading that right, multiple zone changes can't be tracked by the zone-change triggers.

I was unaware of that wording in the comprehensive rules. I'd been applying the same shorthand that let Grenzo, Dungeon Warden's and similar abilities which refer to the 'card' when changing zones (eg Leyline of the Void). I stand corrected.

Interestingly because leyline is a replacement effect there are not multiple zone changes so grenzo still works through rip and leyline afaik.

The new wording on commanders is a state based effect not a replacement.

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Interestingly because leyline is a replacement effect there are not multiple zone changes so grenzo still works through rip and leyline afaik.

The new wording on commanders is a state based effect not a replacement.

Which, of course suggests (pending actual rules language), that the "Grenzo working through Leyline" will no longer be true.

Sometimes I should think before I type.....

WizardMN wrote: ↑

4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Interestingly because leyline is a replacement effect there are not multiple zone changes so grenzo still works through rip and leyline afaik.

The new wording on commanders is a state based effect not a replacement.

Which, of course suggests (pending actual rules language), that the "Grenzo working through Leyline" will no longer be true.

That is incorrect. This changes nothing about how replacement effects would interact with Grenzo's ability. Only the Command zone effect is moving to a state based action, this is not a broad change to all replacement effects.

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

4 years ago

WizardMN wrote: ↑

4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Interestingly because leyline is a replacement effect there are not multiple zone changes so grenzo still works through rip and leyline afaik.

The new wording on commanders is a state based effect not a replacement.

Which, of course suggests (pending actual rules language), that the "Grenzo working through Leyline" will no longer be true.

That is incorrect. This changes nothing about how replacement effects would interact with Grenzo's ability. Only the Command zone effect is moving to a state based action, this is not a broad change to all replacement effects.

Oh, right. Still thinking of the Commander being in that situation. I got myself turned around. I was thinking of the Commander going to exile and then moving which Grenzo (and others) can't track. But, that particular scenario is not likely. You are correct

WizardMN wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Which, of course suggests (pending actual rules language), that the "Grenzo working through Leyline" will no longer be true.

Sometimes I should think before I type.....

You get one freebie for every 10 of my rules errors you fix. Just turn in one of your punchcards.

Not to belabor a dead point, but even if all leyline-style replacement effects became SBAs, it would still work fine with Grenzo because his ability is all one resolution with no opportunity to check the state in the middle to exile it.

The reason tokens don't work this way (i.e. you can't flicker them without "killing" them) is that there is a special rule to prevent tokens returning after they change zones. If not for that rule, I believe you could use flicker effects on tokens safely.

DirkGently wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The reason tokens don't work this way (i.e. you can't flicker them without "killing" them) is that there is a special rule to prevent tokens returning after they change zones. If not for that rule, I believe you could use flicker effects on tokens safely.

111.8 A token that has left the battlefield can't move to another zone or come back onto the battlefield. If such a token would change zones, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based actions are checked;

This was my main wish for a rule change, so I'm pretty damn happy. This makes cards work more intuitively, and the game easier for people to pick up. Removing counter intuitive corner cases is usually for the best because that removes barriers for newer players. It also enables a few legends to work as intended.

My exception to that rule will always be Mana burn. I feel that Mana burn was an important tool to manage certain powerful ramp cards like Mana doublers or cradle/coffers by making any excess Mana you can't spend hurt, thus making players think more about using these powerful effects rather than being able to use them to autopilot. It would also add a small drawback to the strongest rocks like sol ring by making them hit you for 1 if you can't use both Mana (it seems rare, but sometimes people do need them for just one extra Mana instead of both, like casting Thada turn 2 after turn one sol ring, so even this very minor nerf is relevant). It weakens effects that punish opponents for not being tapped out.

Mana burn is so unlikely to matter in most formats that it becomes a nuisance, but in Commander where generating large quantities of non infinite mana is pretty easy I'd love to make players suffer for their wanton ramping.

I thought I was the only one who loved the intricacies and strategizing of working around mana burn. Cryo, onering...I love you guys for these words, and I wholeheartedly would endorse a return to it. :D
When paper games start up again here(hopefully soon), I will be extremely curious to see how much change is made to other decks with this death trigger adjustment. A part of me is nervous about Child of Alara decks gaining momentum, but as Moe Howard once said, "We shall see what we shall see."