MTGNexus

What are y'alls opinions on proxies in the 99 and as a commander?

My playgroup allows proxies and oversize cards only for the commander, but nothing else for the 99. That way, we can play commander using the cards we have in our collection while also being able to play a commander that fits in the decks and is cheap
(The reason we don't allow them in the 99 is that most players in my playgroup don't sleeve their commander deck, only sleeving the commander)

I personally

I also do understand that it would be annoying heading into an LGS and one guy who absolutely dominates using a 100% proxy deck.

QUICK TIP WHEN MAKING/USING PROXIES, FOLLOW THE RULES PLZ

Personally, I'm fine with folks using playtest cards to try out a card in a deck if they're not sure they want to invest in it, or if it's not released yet, but it really should only be for those purposes. Once you know that you want the card in your deck, should either acquire a copy or accept that it's just not in your budget to play that card.

JqlGirl wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Personally, I'm fine with folks using playtest cards to try out a card in a deck if they're not sure they want to invest in it, or if it's not released yet, but it really should only be for those purposes. Once you know that you want the card in your deck, should either acquire a copy or accept that it's just not in your budget to play that card.

This pretty much covers it. Not wanting to shuck your hard earned dollars on a card that doesn't fit is one thing, proxying a full set of ABUR duals and fetches to optimise your list and keeping them there is another. The first scenario I'm cool with, the second....if you can't afford them just make do without, it's not the end of the world.

I am OK within reason. If I only have 1 Scroll rack, but want it in 2 decks, I make a high quality proxy, so people can clearly read it not be fooled its real, and switch it out if they ask. I do try very hard to ask at the beginning of games if I know a deck has 1 or 2.

I think they're reasonable if used appropriately within the context of your playgroup's power level, especially as a way to allow players to play on an even field. As an overly-simple example, if everyone else in your group is running Craterhoof Behemoth, but you don't have one, feel free to proxy a copy. In a similar note, something I'd love to try with my playgroup is to have everyone select a cEDH deck and proxy the entire thing, so that we can try out a different type of EDH than the battlecruiser we're used to.

That being said, I recognise that I'm lucky enough to have a regular playgroup, so power level is easy to determine and it's easy to sort out something like the full-proxy cEDH idea. When not in this situation, I think you have to err on the side of caution, as it becomes a lot easier to become an unintentional pubstomper if budget is no issue.

It depends. I'll almost never refuse to let someone play a deck - due to them playing proxies, but also due to them using an invalid (due to not being a legendary creature, not due to being banned) commander, or due to power level. However, proxies do have a tendency to annoy me. Part of this is because I hold myself to a budget, which means I often make a lot of compromises with my card choices, especially in the manabase. If I see someone proxying a full dual/shock/fetch manabase because they don't feel like making compromises, I'm going to be annoyed.

On the other hand, there are some cases in which I don't mind a proxy at all. For example, if the card hasn't been released yet, or if you've already ordered one, or if you want to test out a new card before committing to it. Alternatively, I'm usually okay with proxies if you own the card, but have it in another deck. Having higher-quality proxies usually helps.

In my playgroup, proxies are only used for a card that is being playtested and/or on order (for not-yet-released cards). That's it. No one, not even the teenagers in our meta, uses proxies. We consider it a collectible game as well as card game...

Playing against proxies irritates me no end, but that only happens on the rare occasion we have a non-regular show up, and we just lump it.

JqlGirl wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Personally, I'm fine with folks using playtest cards to try out a card in a deck if they're not sure they want to invest in it, or if it's not released yet, but it really should only be for those purposes. Once you know that you want the card in your deck, should either acquire a copy or accept that it's just not in your budget to play that card.

MRHblue wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I am OK within reason. If I only have 1 Scroll rack, but want it in 2 decks, I make a high quality proxy, so people can clearly read it not be fooled its real, and switch it out if they ask. I do try very hard to ask at the beginning of games if I know a deck has 1 or 2.

Only 2 reasons when I can tolerate (and used) proxies.
While testing a new deck I need to try it and see if it can run or is fun to play (and not just to brew), it's a waste to buy 10-15 junk cards that will never fit in any other decks just to discover that the deck sucks.
The "replacement" issue is a bit more delicate, I tend to follow the rule of "if it's in another deck don't run the card" but a few rare cases arise sometimes (I had a period in which my 2 green decks both had Sylvan Library but I only have one and switching it back and forth was a stress) so I used a proxy but I asked before any match if it was okay, if someone was against I searched for the original and swapped it.

As other stated this game is as much collecting as it is playing so proxyes for any other cases can be seen as "cheating"

I follow a simple rule - if I own a copy of something, I can run it in as many decks as I feel like. As such, my original pet decks (Patron of the Orochi, Daxos the Returned) are 100% legit, and newer lists have stuff like fetches proxied up as I own one set and that's enough. My group doesn't mind, and I've made it quite clear that they should feel comfortable doing the same.

I'm pretty sure I already brought this up somewhere on these boards before, so at a risk of repeating myself - my old group went hard proxy after I left. Print-offs and Chinese fakes everywhere. Not all that surprisingly, this led to an all-out arms race. The one guy from the 2014 iteration of the group who's still stuck there, and doesn't want to proxy anything himself, is having a bit of a bad time.

I personally could care less. I'm fortunate enough to have a pretty extensive collection, and I'd rather people play something they love than have to compromise on it because they don't have as deep of pockets as I have in the past.

In principle I have no real issue with proxying (for the reason Airi stated primarily -- I have a big collection and don't like seeing others priced out), but in practice If I find that people can't be trusted (particularly with unlimited proxying). The essentially unlimited budget from opting out of the collecting/financial side of the game almost always ends up with:

1) severe inability to stick to a deck for any period of time
2) a terrible case of stapilitis, where every deck is basically an indistinguishable pile of staples (or at minimum, every possible card that could be good in a deck is in there),

I never throw a fit about people using proxies, but I will stop playing with a person who has the full busted mana rock and tutor suite in every deck and they're all proxies. It's very tiresome. We all know what cards are very strong but the challenge is to make something interesting that's also good.

For me, I'll proxy specific cards I own one of that I am actively looking to get another of or considering removing from my other deck. ex. I run my cradle in two decks that it's really, really good in and am actively trying to trade for another.

For others I just don't care if they're used in moderation, but the pattern I see is that opting out of the collectible side of the game changes the way most people approach it in ways that reduce both my enjoyment and theirs. So I tend to avoid heavy proxy users just because I've played with enough of them to know how it goes. I'm willing to be convinced of exceptions.

"Oh, I have one proxy in this deck, because I can't be arsed to get another vampiric tutor" doesn't bother me. "Oh, I have some proxies..."
<sigh>

pokken wrote: ↑

4 years ago

In principle I have no real issue with proxying (for the reason Airi stated primarily -- I have a big collection and don't like seeing others priced out), but in practice If I find that people can't be trusted (particularly with unlimited proxying). The essentially unlimited budget from opting out of the collecting/financial side of the game almost always ends up with:

1) severe inability to stick to a deck for any period of time
2) a terrible case of stapilitis, where every deck is basically an indistinguishable pile of staples (or at minimum, every possible card that could be good in a deck is in there),

I never throw a fit about people using proxies, but I will stop playing with a person who has the full busted mana rock and tutor suite in every deck and they're all proxies. It's very tiresome. We all know what cards are very strong but the challenge is to make something interesting that's also good.

For me, I'll proxy specific cards I own one of that I am actively looking to get another of or considering removing from my other deck. ex. I run my cradle in two decks that it's really, really good in and am actively trying to trade for another.

For others I just don't care if they're used in moderation, but the pattern I see is that opting out of the collectible side of the game changes the way most people approach it in ways that reduce both my enjoyment and theirs. So I tend to avoid heavy proxy users just because I've played with enough of them to know how it goes. I'm willing to be convinced of exceptions.

"Oh, I have one proxy in this deck, because I can't be arsed to get another vampiric tutor" doesn't bother me. "Oh, I have some proxies..."

• mox diamond
• mana crypt
• chrome mox
• vampiric tutor
• imperial seal
• gaea's cradle
• timetwister
• bayou
• underground sea
• tropical island
• all the fetchlands

<sigh>

This is exactly it. I saw the second type at the shop last week.

I proxy cards I only own singletons of and cards I'm playtesting, but frankly, I don't care about people playing proxies of expensive cards they'll never own. I'm here to play a game, not dick wave about my collection.

I'm probably going to be the only person that is 100% ok with proxies with no stipulations.

My thought process behind this is I love playing the game, and I love playing with/against fully optimized lists. I feel like it makes the games more exciting to play on a level field, and make it more about the skill of the player than the size of their wallets. I myself have two legit decks again, but also have 6-7 more decks that are 100% proxied (not paper printouts, but professionally printed/cut out of card stock), so I did spend a bit of money, but not as much as I would have buying the real cards.

My LGS (before it closed) ran into this quite frequently: you had the players who had massive collections or a decent paying job and could afford to buy all of the good cards, and the players who bought packs/precons and worked with what they had. FNMs always had the same players in the top, and eventually all the other players just stopped going and supporting the store, and it shut down. While it could be chocked up to the business being ran poorly, players leaving because of this is a huge part of it.

As stated above, it should be about skill and how you build your deck, not about what you can afford, so I have no issue with proxies.

For myself, I get the concept of not wanting finances to restrict your builds and that's cool and all. I think if you own a single copy of something fairly expensive, sure proxy for other decks, it's a hassle to move cards about. I have precisely one Sylvan Library and if I were wanting to optimize every deck I own it'd be a ton easier to proxy it.

Where I take umbrage is what Pokken mentioned - a 'full suite of proxies' gets really tiresome really quick. It's further than I'd ever go to fill out a deck, and it sort of defeats the purpose of the format in terms of getting creative. If I wanted to play vintage Singleton that's what I'd do.

It takes a fair bit of crossing the line for me to actually say something though - even sitting down against someone with a deck I know they can't afford I'll still give it my best crack at a fun game and a win. I guess you can either see it as a challenge and try your best or let it spoil your day. So long as the table is scaled within reason I'll roll with it.

Would you feel any differently if someone without proxies plopped down a tuned cEDH Flash Hulk list? To me, proxies are a tool, and while they can be used by jerks to pubstomp, in this instance the problem lies with the person, not the tool.

Go for it, with one exception: if your LGS sells singles, it's a bit rude to rock up with proxies really.

Dragonlover

GloriousGoose wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Would you feel any differently if someone without proxies plopped down a tuned cEDH Flash Hulk list? To me, proxies are a tool, and while they can be used by jerks to pubstomp, in this instance the problem lies with the person, not the tool.

Generally agree. It's probably the one way I'm aware of that they could be abused, which I'd be pissed about.

For myself I'm happy to come up with creative ways to work around needing staples, but I can relate to being on the losing end of the supply/demand scenario in what can be essentially a collector's game at times.

I'm actually in the process of getting proxies for my cube, but it is for the expensive cards like Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, Library of Alexandria, and Timetwister that are stupid expensive and I only own one copy. I would rather have the real cards in real decks, and I have a moment of panic every time I draft it, even among trusted friends.

But for real decks, I never proxy. If I don't have a physical copy of a card it doesn't go in the deck. It's just that simple. At my LGS we have a no proxy rule so it isn't a problem. And if someone has proxies I don't care, mostly for the same reason Airi mentioned. I find it more annoying when someone has bad proxies or their entire deck proxies, but I'm here to play, not compare wallets.

If I don't own the card, I don't play it, and this is coming from someone with a very extensive collection. The one exception I make is if I have already ordered the card(s) online and I am happy to show my playgroup the eBay or TCG orders if they need to see it.

I look at the game as a collectible and as such if you want to play, you should go about obtaining the cards you are going to play.

That may mean someone only has a few decks, while I currently run 16, but almost all of my decks are 75% while I do expect folks with fewer cards to tune their decks harder than I do. I can make all my decks as tuned as the next guy if I want, I own 90+ shocks and more than 40 fetches and pretty much every card that has been printed in the last 15 years, but I am in it for the fun and social enjoyment. I still think that the players need to actually have the cards they want to play. If not I do feel that it somewhat invalidates all my budgetary choices that went into my collection. I can just buy a cheap printer and some paper and not support the game, but ultimately that hurts the game stores and the hobby overall.

I use "playtest cards" in various decks in place of cards I own at least one copy of for convenience. (I have way too many decks.) I've yet to have anyone criticize this in person. Some others I play with do the same, and some use them for cards they don't own any copies of. Personally, I unconditionally support the practice.

I agree and sign up to the philosophy of proxying pricey cards I own already. SDT, lands like Coffers and Fetches, Demonic Tutor etc. Something new I've started to do however is proxy cards I own in multiples that are heavily talked about ban Fodder. Cyclonic Rift is one example, where I've kept the real one in my 4c deck (along with most of the original versions of things) and put the other 2 in my trade binder. Recent reprint habits and the banning of PE stung me hard in terms of things I'd love to use and brew decks around that sadly yucked someone else's yum, so I'd rather not have to fork out another £30+ on a card anymore.

I haven't had anyone deny me a game based on these proxies (mostly just full art looking versions of the card) when I explain that I can break out the real Spanish signed copy of Trompo Adivinador del Sensei from my 4c I always keep on hand if it bugs them that much. If it ever does happen and let's say I left my Vilis deck at home that day with my OG Coffers, id probably just go to another pod.

Something I've noticed about the demographic here is that there are a lot more of who I consider the "old-guard" who will have established collections/greater income to afford being able to turn their nose at the idea of fakes. I will predict with great certainty that the more commander grows, the more proxying will become an issue you'll have to either accept or gradually shelter yourselves away from. Even newer and younger players want their Oracle's of Mul Daya (lands.dec with any commander at the front is too prohibitive atm) or Cyclonic Rift. People like powerful cards as it turns out.

GloriousGoose wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Would you feel any differently if someone without proxies plopped down a tuned cEDH Flash Hulk list? To me, proxies are a tool, and while they can be used by jerks to pubstomp, in this instance the problem lies with the person, not the tool.

This hits the nail on the head. I think a lot of people are conflating the idea of proxying with what people choose to do with the proxies. Nobody would bat an eye at well-made proxies if the only cards people used them for were inoffensive $2.00 cards like Kodama's Reach. People are worried about the deck full of proxies of every broken mana rock and tutor in existence, but even if the cards are real that's still not a deck I'd want to play against.

If I can tell what all the cards are at a glance, and the deck they're in is fun, I have literally zero problem with proxies.

Airi wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I personally could care less.

Are you sure you didn't mean that you couldn't care less? Sorry, personal pet peeve of mine. I am compelled to correct it any time I see it.

I've pretty much always proxied over the years and am still proxying some cards in my decks, although at this point it's mostly just lands. I'm lucky my LGS group doesn't mind and we waver on the 75% line (sometimes we slack off, sometimes we tilt a bit too close to cEDH for comfort).

In fairness, my LGS knows of decades-long plan to eventually foil out my (eight) decks and since I wish to spend minimal time trading on-and-off (it's supposed to be a hobby after all) I don't buy nonfoils, only foils directly (my first decade in the game already provides me supply I've been slow to reduce already and the occasional prerelease / pack therapy doesn't help), so they know I'm basically "camping" in the secondary market to snipe foils when they're around their lowest.

Fortunately I sit now on a sizable collection that I could afford to not use proxies for nonlands at the cost of some power-level, so whether I proxy nonlands is pretty much meta-dependent. When Eternal Masters introduced Mana Crypt arms races, I had them proxied so I could catch up, but since it more or less "died out", I took them out (man it was one of the more uncomfortable proxies I felt I had since I never owned one).

Lands I stay stubborn on because generally speaking even on the lower-end of our 75% meta, most of us keep out landbases smooth all the time, so shelling out for foil Temples I would consider a waste of money in the long run. I could use basics, but I also aesthetically have them foiled with the same art, so if I don't have spares of the same (not all of them are easily acquired), I'd rather stare at 8 foil Plains/Islands and a proxied Skycloud Expanse than 8 foils and a out-of-place basic.

Sticking with the policy, I do not proxy cards that cannot be foiled (so basically Commander precons don't exist to me outside of 12-15 cards) and cards on the Reserved List (including ABUR duals). I did for a brief moment include RL cards with foils but seeing the price spikes over the years I was convinced I was never getting another one (I bought a foil Palinchron years ago), so the entire List got binned.

If a card looks like a prime reprint target and has inflated considerably due to supply drying up I generally just proxy and wait it out for the reprint. The foil usually costs ridiculous sums for a reprintable card and buying the nonfoil is just throwing money down the drain when the reprint hits. My favorite example of a card like this is Hall of the Bandit Lord (although ironically for that card I do have a nonfoil, so I just use it instead, but boy would it crash like crazy if it was reprinted again). That being said, my perception/policy comes because I do own some of such cards myself (nonfoil though) and seeing how hard it is to offload them myself until reprint drops its value, buying them seeing doubly foolish. I only do that on the rare occasions I can see myself shifting off the cards (I think spent nearly $40 on a foil Oracle of Mul Daya a few years ago, but months after that I sold off my two nonfoils to compensate for that sum spent, it'd be the same thing today, except riskier since it'd be harder to sell the nonfoils at their even crazier prices now).

As for my opinion on others using proxies, I'm no hypocrite, I'm fine with it (I think long ago I met a player who 100% proxied his deck including basics). I did not run into one (the 100% proxy player was very casual), but if someone did a majority proxy to pubstomp, it's the pubstomping that needs to be addressed, not the proxying, although the proxying-factor does assist in addressing the issue.

I usually warn people of my proxies (and I usually play with the same regular group at the LGS, so most of them know anyway), I don't actually remember anyone being vehemently against it... usually it's the other way round, people are impressed by the "expensive (now)" bling I have (which I sniped years ago when they were lower / at their lowest and also probably mitigated by me having nonfoils to indirectly trade for it), then they get treated to my basic explanation of why I proxy (hence making the deck look like some frankenstein of expensive foils and proxies) and wait to snipe cards to minimize the cost of this hobby while still blinging it out and that they can do the same as well.

Impossible wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Nobody would bat an eye at well-made proxies if the only cards people used them for were inoffensive $2.00 cards like Kodama's Reach.

Not nobody. Most people sure. But I really dislike proxies and would really rather not play in a game with them.

It's hard to articulate why. I want the game to be more accessible. Despite my extensive and expensive collection, I'd be very happy if the reserved list were banished and there were large numbers of available reprints.

But proxies (to me) feel exploitative - like you're stealing someones work. Like you are consuming without supporting (either wizards or the gamestore or whomever). I have a real visceral dislike of them. I'm pretty sure that if I saw a deck with a bunch of readily available commons proxied I'd feel nothing but disgust.

But that's my opinion, and I am not trying to change anyone elses.