MTGNexus

motleyslayer wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I played against Ponza twice in a row in a league, Obosh, the Preypiercer is insane in the deck, a lot of teh threats were already odd cmc anyways, so they deal insane amounts of damage

thanks for posting about this. Got to get an Obosh too.

my Ponza deck is on hiatus, but I might take it out since there's a new toy.

edit: and our natural predator Hollow One is long dead, so this feels like a good time to take out the deck again.

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

edit: and our natural predator Hollow One is long dead, so this feels like a good time to take out the deck again.

I mean, the number of main deck Relics and Tormod's Crypts have skyrocketed, so your mileage may vary...

NM, misread this. Thought you were playing Hollow one.

Though the splash damage of this also hurts my Uros.

I just reupped on an interesting idea of why Companions exist. The Companion mechanic was created to attract Commander players to play other formats. WotC realized that Commander lovers are the number 1 group that makes money for WotC, so they tried to push them into other formats.

Not sure if it worked. Have any of you seen Commander players playing Modern, Legacy, Vintage, or Standard any more than they already did?

@cfusionpm

The rise of Hollow One decks are the main reason I stopped playing Ponza back then. The match-up is too lopsided in their favor. Well, with H1 gone, and a new toy arrive - I might be dusting off the sprawls and sleeving them again. Unfortunate that titan cannot be used, but Stormbreath hitting for 8 in the air should make up for it!

still have no one to play with though.. because virus is still around..

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I just reupped on an interesting idea of why Companions exist. The Companion mechanic was created to attract Commander players to play other formats. WotC realized that Commander lovers are the number 1 group that makes money for WotC, so they tried to push them into other formats.

Not sure if it worked. Have any of you seen Commander players playing Modern, Legacy, Vintage, or Standard any more than they already did?

What makes Commander fun to most Commander players is effectively the opposite of being successful in a competitive constructed format.

Commander is all about identity, self-expression through deck-building, creating amazing moments, doing big splashy powerful things, playing politics and head games with opponents to strengthen a weak deck or hand, having a neat or funny theme to play up, or even just rummaging through your boxes to put together "cards I have.dec" People play decks they love, decks that are an expression of themselves, decks which they may play for eternity whether they are good or not, because the nature of Commander is to create amazing game experiences for players above strictly winning. Several Commander Leagues specifically have guidelines on how to earn points, most of which have nothing to do with actually winning. Commander is about fun first, and winning ..... second? Third? Farther?

If this is the case, not only does it show a fundamental disconnect to understanding what people like about competitive constructed formats, it also shows the fundamental disconnect in understanding Commander. Thank God that someone other than WOTC runs the rules committee for EDH.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I just reupped on an interesting idea of why Companions exist. The Companion mechanic was created to attract Commander players to play other formats. WotC realized that Commander lovers are the number 1 group that makes money for WotC, so they tried to push them into other formats.

Not sure if it worked. Have any of you seen Commander players playing Modern, Legacy, Vintage, or Standard any more than they already did?

What makes Commander fun to most Commander players is effectively the opposite of being successful in a competitive constructed format.

Commander is all about identity, self-expression through deck-building, creating amazing moments, doing big splashy powerful things, playing politics and head games with opponents to strengthen a weak deck or hand, having a neat or funny theme to play up, or even just rummaging through your boxes to put together "cards I have.dec" People play decks they love, decks that are an expression of themselves, decks which they may play for eternity whether they are good or not, because the nature of Commander is to create amazing game experiences for players above strictly winning. Several Commander Leagues specifically have guidelines on how to earn points, most of which have nothing to do with actually winning. Commander is about fun first, and winning ..... second? Third? Farther?

If this is the case, not only does it show a fundamental disconnect to understanding what people like about competitive constructed formats, it also shows the fundamental disconnect in understanding Commander. Thank God that someone other than WOTC runs the rules committee for EDH.

You're definitely right about that. I just came from a stream with some Commander lovers trying to talk me into trying Commander again, while I bad mouthed Commander, lol.

Basically my point is that no one wants to play Commander against me if I play good cards or even play well for that matter. So I have to dumb down my decks. I am a person who gets too extreme at times, so if I'm gonna play a crap deck, it really will be a crap deck. It will literally just have no win-cons and cards to %$#% with people. I play Magic to win, not to lose. Sorry, not sorry. Even when I played crap decks in the past, I played them because of a win percentage that I had (Cragganwick Cremator or Elementals). Once it goes south, I ditch the deck. It's no fun anymore. I loved, loved the game play from Knight Retreat, but after 2-3 months of only a 61% win percentage, I figured the deck was not for me (I wasn't a good enough pilot or whatever the case)

We couldn't really come to any kind of agreement, as you can guess.

Yeah the whole thing with the companions is...just whatever to me. I've been grinding arena to pass the time (2 months in my house is just too much....) and honestly the biggest take aways.

1. Other formats (Vintage/Legacy/Modern even Pioneer) absolutely MUST have distinct identity. Different decks, different threats, different 'feel'.

Why? Because...

2. Standard is absolutely unplayable 'value' trains. It is not remotely close to 'Magic' when I think about what defines the game. Its this grotesque permanent based, draw another card, more value, play an extra land, more value, play a 4 mana enchantment/creature value engine. REPEAT.

Like...if people enjoy it, great for them. I had earned plenty of wild cards, I put together Cycling, Yorion, Lurrus, and its just not even CLOSE to what I would choose to spend my time playing.

Yuck.

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Basically my point is that no one wants to play Commander against me if I play good cards or even play well for that matter. So I have to dumb down my decks. I am a person who gets too extreme at times, so if I'm gonna play a crap deck, it really will be a crap deck. It will literally just have no win-cons and cards to %$#% with people. I play Magic to win, not to lose. Sorry, not sorry. Even when I played crap decks in the past, I played them because of a win percentage that I had (Cragganwick Cremator or Elementals). Once it goes south, I ditch the deck. It's no fun anymore. I loved, loved the game play from Knight Retreat, but after 2-3 months of only a 61% win percentage, I figured the deck was not for me (I wasn't a good enough pilot or whatever the case)

We couldn't really come to any kind of agreement, as you can guess.

There are places for all kinds of decks. Generally speaking people kind of rate decks on power levels, so that no one is too overpowered or not. If you're playing cEDH level 9s and 10s, there are a bunch of options for that. Either find other 9s and 10s to play against, or introduce alternate modes (like 3-on-1 archenemy or something).

My Yarok deck is fairly powerful and consistent, with the ability to win through several value chains and an infinite combo. But unless I can kill the whole table at once, it's not wise to show the true strength and cause everyone to gang up on me. The best way to be successful is to pilot in such a way so as to build a presence without being perceived as "the threat." And that can be a very tricky tightrope to walk. It was one of the reasons I loved my old Teysa deck; because it was effectively a "kill everyone combo deck" made up of random and innocuous pieces. But over the years, people are more keen to spot out things that matter, and suddenly it's just a deck of 4 mana 1/1s that make a few tokens.

Anyway, to bring it back to the format this thread is supposed to discuss, these other layers of gameplay, the psychological games and playing the player instead of the deck was what really drew me deep into the game (and why I liked Twin). And while I continue to search for the scratch to that itch on a competitive level, at least I have that in Commander for the time being.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Basically my point is that no one wants to play Commander against me if I play good cards or even play well for that matter. So I have to dumb down my decks. I am a person who gets too extreme at times, so if I'm gonna play a crap deck, it really will be a crap deck. It will literally just have no win-cons and cards to %$#% with people. I play Magic to win, not to lose. Sorry, not sorry. Even when I played crap decks in the past, I played them because of a win percentage that I had (Cragganwick Cremator or Elementals). Once it goes south, I ditch the deck. It's no fun anymore. I loved, loved the game play from Knight Retreat, but after 2-3 months of only a 61% win percentage, I figured the deck was not for me (I wasn't a good enough pilot or whatever the case)

We couldn't really come to any kind of agreement, as you can guess.

There are places for all kinds of decks. Generally speaking people kind of rate decks on power levels, so that no one is too overpowered or not. If you're playing cEDH level 9s and 10s, there are a bunch of options for that. Either find other 9s and 10s to play against, or introduce alternate modes (like 3-on-1 archenemy or something).

My Yarok deck is fairly powerful and consistent, with the ability to win through several value chains and an infinite combo. But unless I can kill the whole table at once, it's not wise to show the true strength and cause everyone to gang up on me. The best way to be successful is to pilot in such a way so as to build a presence without being perceived as "the threat." And that can be a very tricky tightrope to walk. It was one of the reasons I loved my old Teysa deck; because it was effectively a "kill everyone combo deck" made up of random and innocuous pieces. But over the years, people are more keen to spot out things that matter, and suddenly it's just a deck of 4 mana 1/1s that make a few tokens.

Anyway, to bring it back to the format this thread is supposed to discuss, these other layers of gameplay, the psychological games and playing the player instead of the deck was what really drew me deep into the game (and why I liked Twin). And while I continue to search for the scratch to that itch on a competitive level, at least I have that in Commander for the time being.

Thank you. They did not even want to concede that point. I don't want to own 10 Commander decks, rather I don't want to pay for 10 commander decks so I have a 1, 2, and so on all the way to 10. It's much too expensive and I don't have the time. I just have 1 deck. If someone asks, "do you want to play commander" and I have time, that's the deck that I'll break out. I don't want to have to go through 5 min. of conversation on what's okay and what's not. One Commander game takes enough time.

There's so many reasons why I don't like the format. It started back when I first played Magic. I played (not Commander) a free for all at my Junior College at the time. Everybody threw Bolts at me until I was dead by turn 2, just because I played Power 9. I didn't really see a way to beat 10 other players who all have 4 Lightning Bolts in their decks at the time. But I got over that and tried to enjoy Commander.

I understand the "try not to look like a threat" option, but sometimes that can be blown out by others. Wheel effects, among other board changing effects, can often put a damper in how much you can do that. In Modern, you know what outs your opponent has if you punt a turn or miss lethal. In Commander, especially since there was a time period where I didn't play the game (from Prophecy to Mirrodin), you never know what odd stuff can get you.

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Basically my point is that no one wants to play Commander against me if I play good cards or even play well for that matter. So I have to dumb down my decks. I am a person who gets too extreme at times, so if I'm gonna play a crap deck, it really will be a crap deck. It will literally just have no win-cons and cards to %$#% with people. I play Magic to win, not to lose. Sorry, not sorry. Even when I played crap decks in the past, I played them because of a win percentage that I had (Cragganwick Cremator or Elementals). Once it goes south, I ditch the deck. It's no fun anymore. I loved, loved the game play from Knight Retreat, but after 2-3 months of only a 61% win percentage, I figured the deck was not for me (I wasn't a good enough pilot or whatever the case)

I had somewhat the same problem when we formed a commander group. I was the only one that had access to so many cards (been playing consistently since 2013, started in 2008) and my first decks were extremely powerful when compared to theirs, even to a friend's from the Modern LGS. So I've taken it as a challenge to build my decks closer to them, while also empowering theirs by giving them cards (oftentimes outright gifting them) and fixing their deck building mistakes.

Plus I can finally play cards that are bad in Modern. Angel Tribal, Thopter/Servo Tribal, Tezzert Tribal, (Almost) Everything Ravnica Niv etc. Adding Planechase to the mix also helps the fun by adding incredible randomness and providing challenges in trying to navigate those weird circumstances.

I, like you, play to win -and probably have the most wins in that playgroup-, but as long as everyone did their thing or as @cfusionpm said something amzing, weird, memorable happened, then winning is secondary or even lower.

It may be that Commander isn't for you or it may be that you haven't found the one(s) that suit you.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

If this is the case, not only does it show a fundamental disconnect to understanding what people like about competitive constructed formats, it also shows the fundamental disconnect in understanding Commander. Thank God that someone other than WOTC runs the rules committee for EDH.

I can see where you're coming from, but two things:

1. The very social nature of commander helps with it not needing an "official" banlist.
2. They have %$#% up many times. Coalition Victory still banned, took them years to ban Iona just as some examples.

The social nature can be a double edged sword too. If you go into a random playgroup, there's no guarantee of the power level of the group so you may end up miserable or make others miserable. I've also had people whining because my 4C and 5C decks have near perfect manabases due to shock/fetches.

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Thank you. They did not even want to concede that point. I don't want to own 10 Commander decks, rather I don't want to pay for 10 commander decks so I have a 1, 2, and so on all the way to 10. It's much too expensive and I don't have the time. I just have 1 deck. If someone asks, "do you want to play commander" and I have time, that's the deck that I'll break out. I don't want to have to go through 5 min. of conversation on what's okay and what's not. One Commander game takes enough time.

You can be fine with 2-3, as long as they encompass the range 5-8, most players are there. cEDH is 9-10 and even against them an 8 isn't dead in the water.

These guys are currently in my cart. Only waiting for wotc to say that companions would not be ban, then I would click order. Yorion and Obosh are for modern, Kaheera is for my pet deck in pioneer.

Reading Maro on Twitter- the guy who bought you Energy and Companions- sounding narked and defensive as people pile in to him. Correctly so, sadly, as he prevaricates with the "not my job" line a lot, whilst in other times giving us loads of stuff which would also be "not my job". It is only "not my job" when it suits him, and his Companions babies, like Energy before them, are bastard sons of Satan, a disease spreading across the game that could have been corrected by having, yep, you guessed it, hate cards- in one place that remove energy counters as efficiently as they can be made or stops them being gained (at a cheaper cost than 3cc) in the other by having stuff that prevents from outside the game working (although it would have to be using the companion mechanic itself and do nothing much other than reactively stop companions, at which point you might as well scrap the companion mechanic).


Canlander is what people who don't like Commander play if they want singleton formats.
Also it helps that Commander players can convert easily.
Best thing about it. No Companion, no banlist, almost.

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

These guys are currently in my cart. Only waiting for wotc to say that companions would not be ban, then I would click order. Yorion and Obosh are for modern, Kaheera is for my pet deck in pioneer.

SPOILER

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None of those are Lurrus, so you should be fine. And Yorion is only $5. I've squandered away less money on a mediocre meal. I say grab em. Even if they become worthless, it's only $11, which could quickly become $50+ if not banned and demand skyrockets.

WotC said many times that they don't test for other formats than Standard and Limited. Now, Companion shows that WotC doesn't care about formats other than Standard and Limited.

It was obvious that if you introduce some kind of Command Zone in all formats that everything would be on fire. For instance, Lutri was already banned for EDH during its reveal. Lurrus was immediately intentified as absurd accros many formats. "No testing" is a bad excuse; they simply don't care. I left Modern since Hogaak, and I am just frustrated that every time I want to return, the format is on fire for whatever new set.

Folk's you cant tell me that Wizard's isnt hearing it very loud, and very clear. They know they screwed up. I see people saying they love companions or whatever, but they are a massive minority in terms of the established, vocal, player base based on the amount of communication coming out of Maro on this.

I like commander but I don't care for concepts like" expressing my identity" or figuring out if people want to decide what can't be done/League Rules. I'd rather build a weaker deck than submit to such hogwash.

Anyway, I do like the concept of companions. Not just through EDH experiences but also through my time as Yugioh player. Problem with companions is they needed stricter deck conditions while also better mana costing. Who thought it was a good idea for a card like Lurrus be a card that costs white and black split twice with a generic mana? It should have been 2 white and 2 black. More importantly there's no drawback like exiling any of your own cards if they hit the graveyard?

For eternal formats like modern most of the companions are going to turn out to be fine build around cards. Lurrus is far over powered though, and 2-3 others are seeing a fair amount of play. Lurrus was a clear mistake, most others appear at this time to be of an acceptable power level. Was the mechanic a good idea, probably Not, but if lurrus was not printed then the mechanic may have been ok.

Edit: the question really comes down to: for eternal formats is the companion mechanic the mistake or is lurrus the mistake? I think lurrus is the clear mistake while the mechanic is bad, but certainly not as bad as lurrus himself.

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

For eternal formats like modern most of the companions are going to turn out to be fine build around cards. Lurrus is far over powered though, and 2-3 others are seeing a fair amount of play. Lurrus was a clear mistake, most others appear at this time to be of an acceptable power level. Was the mechanic a good idea, probably Not, but if lurrus was not printed then the mechanic may have been ok.

Edit: the question really comes down to: for eternal formats is the companion mechanic the mistake or is lurrus the mistake? I think lurrus is the clear mistake while the mechanic is bad, but certainly not as bad as lurrus himself.

I agree, but I actually think that Lurrus as a card in your deck is okay. It should be banned all together in Vintage and Legacy, while being legal in Modern outside of Companion. It is a super powerful card that would usually cost at least 4 mana for this type of effect. Even though it's completely different in mechanics, I compare it to Deathrite Shaman, where many more people would rather have it banned than not. In mechanics, I compare it to Emry, Lurker of the Loch or Dark Confidant. Some people are going to say that Dark Confidant makes you lose life, but be real with yourselves - Dark Confidant only reveals lands or occasionally Baubles in today's meta.

After playing with and against them all weekend, I feel Companions are a mistake on par with Planeswalkers being a mistake.

Both force the game into certain directions, that are imo not ideal.

As much as I would probably love playing URb Lurrus tempo, I think I definitely made the right call to sell my Baubles when mtgotraders was buying them at $56/ea. But it reflects something I've been saying for a while, and Nikachu has said in both his recent Companions videos: fear. Do you buy in knowing it will likely be banned? How long do you wait it out losing to it? How long do you wait to buy in? How long will they let these languish in the format? Eldrazi and Hogaak ruined Modern months longer than they needed to, and WOTC's "we no longer schedule B&R updates" plan is supposed to exist specifically for this kind of problem. Let's see if they use it.

Still enjoying Bant Snow though, as much as I can against a slew of main deck Relics and such.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

As much as I would probably love playing URb Lurrus tempo, I think I definitely made the right call to sell my Baubles when mtgotraders was buying them at $56/ea. But it reflects something I've been saying for a while, and Nikachu has said in both his recent Companions videos: fear. Do you buy in knowing it will likely be banned? How long do you wait it out losing to it? How long do you wait to buy in? How long will they let these languish in the format? Eldrazi and Hogaak ruined Modern months longer than they needed to, and WOTC's "we no longer schedule B&R updates" plan is supposed to exist specifically for this kind of problem. Let's see if they use it.

Still enjoying Bant Snow though, as much as I can against a slew of main deck Relics and such.

In my opinion, that's the scariest part. I was STRONGLY considering buying all of the companions except Lurrus just yesterday. But I don't know what will happen. I really want to try a Planebound Accomplice, Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast deck, but I don't know where that deck will be when I can actually play it. Who knows what will happen? Companions stay in, Companions stay but Lurrus banned, Companions all banned, Companions errataed, or anything other than those as well.

I'm not willing to buy Lurrus for $20 in paper in fear of a banning. Am I willing to buy the other companions in case they get banned? They're $5 each and less (other than Gyruda), so maybe so? It is the uncertainty of what will happen that makes it the toughest. If Companions are here to stay for the time being, then I am all for buying the ones I need to be competitive and the ones I need to have fun.

Its not just the Companion though, for me. Its the whole deck to go with it.

Again, I'll put my view out there. 0 Chance Lurrus is not banned, and soon. 0.

cfusionpm wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The Fluff wrote: ↑

4 years ago

These guys are currently in my cart. Only waiting for wotc to say that companions would not be ban, then I would click order. Yorion and Obosh are for modern, Kaheera is for my pet deck in pioneer.

SPOILER

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Hide

None of those are Lurrus, so you should be fine. And Yorion is only $5. I've squandered away less money on a mediocre meal. I say grab em. Even if they become worthless, it's only $11, which could quickly become $50+ if not banned and demand skyrockets.

actually added another Obosh to the cart, as I feel he will be a target. Need one to stay in the main too.
I'm low on cash, honestly... no money is going in because it's 2 months with no job. And I have other priorities to buy, so even something like 10 or 20 dollars expense need to be thought of very carefully. Would certainly be enraged if Maro bans these guys after I spent precious money on them.

well, after making this post I'm placing the order at scg. The allure of lighting bolt doing 6 damage is just too great! haha

EDIT: sadly, I could not order. Their usps 5 dollar delivery method is gone again. The only thing there is their ups, and it cost 25 dollar shipping fee.

going to ask scg customer service on when their 5 dollar shipping would be restored..

FoodChainGoblins wrote: ↑

4 years ago

metalmusic_4 wrote: ↑

4 years ago

For eternal formats like modern most of the companions are going to turn out to be fine build around cards. Lurrus is far over powered though, and 2-3 others are seeing a fair amount of play. Lurrus was a clear mistake, most others appear at this time to be of an acceptable power level. Was the mechanic a good idea, probably Not, but if lurrus was not printed then the mechanic may have been ok.

Edit: the question really comes down to: for eternal formats is the companion mechanic the mistake or is lurrus the mistake? I think lurrus is the clear mistake while the mechanic is bad, but certainly not as bad as lurrus himself.

I agree, but I actually think that Lurrus as a card in your deck is okay. It should be banned all together in Vintage and Legacy, while being legal in Modern outside of Companion. It is a super powerful card that would usually cost at least 4 mana for this type of effect. Even though it's completely different in mechanics, I compare it to Deathrite Shaman, where many more people would rather have it banned than not. In mechanics, I compare it to Emry, Lurker of the Loch or Dark Confidant. Some people are going to say that Dark Confidant makes you lose life, but be real with yourselves - Dark Confidant only reveals lands or occasionally Baubles in today's meta.

I compare Lurrus more to snapcaster, because they both use things from the yard. Well, but there's no way I'm buying any of this companion... the threat of banning is too severe.

The biggest advantage commander has is that if a decks power level is off for the table, their target priority from others changes. One vs one non commander games don't have this.

That lets commander absorb more broken stuff. Draft has this same feature.

Alright guys, heres whats happening. There is a project in the works that I mentioned a few pages back called Pre-War modern. I think watching the development of this community can help us create an actual case for a better modern. They are going set by set to determine cards to ban, but I have not heard anything from the discord about an identity for that format, not having one seems to be the pitfall to avoid.

As an outsider I want to see where this goes, but if you are willing, answer me this, what do you as a modern player want out of modern?