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Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:20 pm
by BeneTleilax
I'd agree with Dirk. Before EDH took off, there was a definite belief that casual was either kids playing with draft chaff or mechanically complex chaos. The latter has sort of disappeared, as more people came into casual formats who didn't want to play against
Warp World on a regular basis. Any tonal issues aside, I think the black-bordered Un cards are going to drop another 5-to-10
Warp Worlds on this format, at least one of which will probably be pushed. MaRo has already confirmed this tendency somewhat in how Unfinity will use die rolls
Also, Adventures in the Forgotten Realms had worked hard to limit the variance of their die-rolling cards, the exact opposite of what an Un- set wants. Un- sets are far on the casual side of the competitive-casual scale and see high variance as a plus (competitive formats want consistency, whereas casual formats prefer that exciting things happen).
MaRo's idea of the "exciting things" that should happen in casual are cards with unpredictable and extremely swingy effects. Saw in Half has also shown that Unfinity is not bound by the normal restrictions on mechanical complexity. The die roll effects in AFR weren't even pushed outside of limited, so it's not as though the casual/competitive dichotomy he's trying to make here makes sense. Rather, several designers very consciously went away from chaotic variance for casual, and MaRo bypassed that consensus with "but it's an Un set, it's supposed to be
wacky" then pushed it into black border. It speaks to a level of internal whipsawing within WotC.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:29 pm
by DirkGently
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
The die roll effects in AFR weren't even pushed outside of limited, so it's not as though the casual/competitive dichotomy he's trying to make here makes sense.
To be fair, limited is an important competitive format. Having swingy unpredictable cards at a major event would probably be bad for the image of the game. Un-limited won't be played anywhere that matters competitively.
I get the feeling that mark's definition of fun is pretty in-line with the sort of guy who brings a group hug deck to the table and then complains when people start targeting him.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:25 pm
by BeneTleilax
DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
I get the feeling that mark's definition of fun is pretty in-line with the sort of guy who brings a group hug deck to the table and then complains when people start targeting him.
He's pretty clearly a troll chaos player, not group hug. The kind that punishes people for trying to plan, rather than just not planning himself. You're right that he has no idea how multiplayer works, though.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:49 pm
by kirkusjones
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
I get the feeling that mark's definition of fun is pretty in-line with the sort of guy who brings a group hug deck to the table and then complains when people start targeting him.
He's pretty clearly a troll chaos player, not group hug. The kind that punishes people for trying to plan, rather than just not planning himself. You're right that he has no idea how multiplayer works, though.
MaRo is the human avatar of
Confusion in the Ranks, the card
Maro was merely a smokescreen.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:30 am
by Wallycaine
He's actually talked before about why he dislikes multiplayer. His basic stance is that magic was not designed to be a political game, so if he wants to play a game with politics, he'd rather play one that was designed with it in mind, such as Diplomacy.
That said, he's also talked about the type of decks he likes to play, and it's definitely not group hug. He's the type of player that tries to kill someone with
Tunnel, so he'd be the person with a wacky 8 card combo that fails 90% of the time, but when it works kills someone.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:58 am
by Ulka
Okay ease off of talking about other people. While you may disagree with a person or not like a person there is no place here on nexus to flame towards a person. we are a welcoming community and that includes developers of magic you may not like.
Ulka
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:17 am
by Hermes_
Wallycaine wrote: ↑2 years ago
He's the type of player that tries to kill someone with
Tunnel, so he'd be the person with a wacky 8 card combo that fails 90% of the time, but when it works kills someone.
My combos may not be 8 cards, but unless it's a clear cut deck (Rats, dragon, Voltron) that sounds like the decks I build. lol
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:34 am
by BeneTleilax
I wasn't really attacking MaRo, just that his idea of wacky, fun casual is not the same as most EDH players (to the extent that warp world is basically banned across several playgroups I've seen). I get that he's been an easy target, because he's basically Design's PR guy, but this set is so clearly his pet project. I think any designer's pet project set like this is going to fall victim to their own niche tastes. MaRo has just been very open about his, so you can clearly trace what comes of him not having other groups of designers to hold him back.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:38 pm
by DirkGently
Forsaken crossroads should be a real mtg card (it's not, right?)
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:53 pm
by Hermes_
DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
Forsaken crossroads should be a real mtg card (it's not, right?)
It's part of Alchemy which is a new, digital-first format only on Magic: The Gathering Arena starting December 9, 2021! Alchemy includes all Standard sets, and rotates as it normally does but it will also regularly rebalance cards, incorporate digital-only mechanics (such as Conjure, Perpetual, Seek) and add supplemental cards with each premier set.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:02 pm
by DirkGently
Hermes_ wrote: ↑2 years ago
It's part of Alchemy which is a new, digital-first format only on Magic: The Gathering Arena starting December 9, 2021! Alchemy includes all Standard sets, and rotates as it normally does but it will also regularly rebalance cards, incorporate digital-only mechanics (such as Conjure, Perpetual, Seek) and add supplemental cards with each premier set.
I assumed it was related to the previous online-only set we saw, I just wasn't 100% positive about crossroads since there's nothing about it afaik that wouldn't work in paper. Maybe we'll see it in some later paper expansion or precon?
Would be nice to see more cards which benefit going later in the turn order to slightly offset the advantage. That's some design space I could get behind. "Retribution Demon has +1/+1 for each player before you in turn order" etc would be cool.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:04 pm
by Mookie
Yeah,
Forsaken Crossroads doesn't work quite as well in paper because it's difficult to track who was the first player beyond the first few turns.
...I do wish
Slayer's Bounty was in paper though. A legendary Clue I can fetch off
Trinket Mage?
Want!
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:14 pm
by Wallycaine
Yeah, the biggest mark against
forsaken crossroads is the requirement to track who the first player was well into the game. Similarly to
Skyshroud Ambush, it's a card where it *could* be non-digital, but the ability to have the computer handle the tracking for it makes it much, much easier to print and use, since you may genuinely not know who went first 15 turns into the game.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:56 pm
by Hermes_
a simple marker like what's used for monarch could work for tracking who went first
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:59 pm
by DirkGently
I guess that's true, gemstone caverns already cares about who went first but it only matters at start of game. But mechanically it's fine. Maybe they're testing the space out, to see if it's good or not. With just one card caring people might forget turn order, but if there were a bunch of cards that cared people would remember I imagine. Could make an interesting precon even, a deck that always wants to go last for maximum power.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:41 pm
by Wallycaine
DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years ago
I guess that's true, gemstone caverns already cares about who went first but it only matters at start of game. But mechanically it's fine. Maybe they're testing the space out, to see if it's good or not. With just one card caring people might forget turn order, but if there were a bunch of cards that cared people would remember I imagine. Could make an interesting precon even, a deck that always wants to go last for maximum power.
Yeah, my guess is basically that A) they could absolutely make this in black border paper, and B) if they made it (or something like it) in black border paper, it'd have to be a major theme of a set or product to justify making people track it. Since it sounds like a *terrible* set theme, I'm not certain it will ever make the jump, but a precon (or cycle of them) is probably its best bet.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:44 am
by Sporegorger_Dragon
Interesting little tidbit about Alchemy Omnath in that instead of getting rid of the ETB entirely, they changed it to scry, just so opponents could respond to the ETB trigger before you get to drop a land. A nice little design trick that I certainly would've missed/overlooked entirely.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:55 pm
by Gashnaw
Mookie wrote: ↑2 years ago
Yeah,
Forsaken Crossroads doesn't work quite as well in paper because it's difficult to track who was the first player beyond the first few turns.
...I do wish
Slayer's Bounty was in paper though. A legendary Clue I can fetch off
Trinket Mage?
Want!
1) If you have trouble remembering who went first... I Consistently play in 4 man pods and it is pretty easy to remember who went first. Even several games into the night i am able to keep track. Its not that tough to remember.
2) Slayers bounty, the wording alone is confusing. How do you look at creatures in a player hand without looking at their hand? They may reveal some but not all. (if you have a cheater) Arena makes sure they cannot forgo revealing one of the creatures. And then what is the spellbook they are referring to?
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:06 pm
by Wallycaine
Gashnaw wrote: ↑2 years ago
Mookie wrote: ↑2 years ago
Yeah,
Forsaken Crossroads doesn't work quite as well in paper because it's difficult to track who was the first player beyond the first few turns.
...I do wish
Slayer's Bounty was in paper though. A legendary Clue I can fetch off
Trinket Mage?
Want!
1) If you have trouble remembering who went first... I Consistently play in 4 man pods and it is pretty easy to remember who went first. Even several games into the night i am able to keep track. Its not that tough to remember.
2) Slayers bounty, the wording alone is confusing. How do you look at creatures in a player hand without looking at their hand? They may reveal some but not all. (if you have a cheater) Arena makes sure they cannot forgo revealing one of the creatures. And then what is the spellbook they are referring to?
Spellbooks are an online only mechanic. There's a list of 15 thematically appropriate cards associated with each card with a spellbook (Slayer's Bounty has a whole bunch of arrest or warden themed cards, for example) , and whenever you "draft" a card from it, you get presented with 3 of those cards to pick one of, which then gets put in your hand.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:24 pm
by DirkGently
Also ofc the game picks out the cards to show you so it can't cheat and reveal too few.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:24 pm
by Gashnaw
Wallycaine wrote: ↑2 years ago
Gashnaw wrote: ↑2 years ago
Mookie wrote: ↑2 years ago
Yeah,
Forsaken Crossroads doesn't work quite as well in paper because it's difficult to track who was the first player beyond the first few turns.
...I do wish
Slayer's Bounty was in paper though. A legendary Clue I can fetch off
Trinket Mage?
Want!
1) If you have trouble remembering who went first... I Consistently play in 4 man pods and it is pretty easy to remember who went first. Even several games into the night i am able to keep track. Its not that tough to remember.
2) Slayers bounty, the wording alone is confusing. How do you look at creatures in a player hand without looking at their hand? They may reveal some but not all. (if you have a cheater) Arena makes sure they cannot forgo revealing one of the creatures. And then what is the spellbook they are referring to?
Spellbooks are an online only mechanic. There's a list of 15 thematically appropriate cards associated with each card with a spellbook (Slayer's Bounty has a whole bunch of arrest or warden themed cards, for example) , and whenever you "draft" a card from it, you get presented with 3 of those cards to pick one of, which then gets put in your hand.
Hmm, is there a compiled list of what cards have spellbooks and what their spellbook consists of? If so i might be able to proxy these in paper magic.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:39 pm
by Wallycaine
Gashnaw wrote: ↑2 years ago
Wallycaine wrote: ↑2 years ago
Gashnaw wrote: ↑2 years ago
1) If you have trouble remembering who went first... I Consistently play in 4 man pods and it is pretty easy to remember who went first. Even several games into the night i am able to keep track. Its not that tough to remember.
2) Slayers bounty, the wording alone is confusing. How do you look at creatures in a player hand without looking at their hand? They may reveal some but not all. (if you have a cheater) Arena makes sure they cannot forgo revealing one of the creatures. And then what is the spellbook they are referring to?
Spellbooks are an online only mechanic. There's a list of 15 thematically appropriate cards associated with each card with a spellbook (Slayer's Bounty has a whole bunch of arrest or warden themed cards, for example) , and whenever you "draft" a card from it, you get presented with 3 of those cards to pick one of, which then gets put in your hand.
Hmm, is there a compiled list of what cards have spellbooks and what their spellbook consists of? If so i might be able to proxy these in paper magic.
Currently revealed ones are in the card image gallery:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... -innistrad
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:34 pm
by kirkusjones
That Gitrog is sweet. I hope they'll someday print something functionally similar in paper, but the "perpetually" bit definitely will make it tough.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:42 pm
by Wallycaine
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
That Gitrog is sweet. I hope they'll someday print something functionally similar in paper, but the "perpetually" bit definitely will make it tough.
If you don't mind losing the ability to recur the land and keep the ability, you could use
Obsidian Fireheart style templating, complete with counters. But those lands would lose the ability as soon as they were blinked or the like.
Re: Unreleased and New Card Discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:42 pm
by kirkusjones
Wallycaine wrote: ↑2 years ago
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
That Gitrog is sweet. I hope they'll someday print something functionally similar in paper, but the "perpetually" bit definitely will make it tough.
If you don't mind losing the ability to recur the land and keep the ability, you could use
Obsidian Fireheart style templating, complete with counters. But those lands would lose the ability as soon as they were blinked or the like.
I'd be cool with
Obsidian Fireheart templating. The tap sac ability is just gravy, really.