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Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Fraying Omnipotence
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:26 pm
by Lifeless
Domes the table with
Wound Reflection or
Archfiend of Despair so it's got that going for it. Also probably pretty good in a big game with
Waste Not, but pretty much all discard is. Not really keen on paying this much for a symmetrical effect.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Fraying Omnipotence
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:08 pm
by Mookie
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Fraying Omnipotence seems... underwhelming. Killing half the creatures is a lot worse than killing all of them with
Damnation - your opponents can easily keep their best creature and sacrifice some tokens. Similarly, discarding half the cards is a lot less than discarding all of them with
Mindslicer. Making your opponents lose half their life is a lot less than making them lose all of it with
Exsanguinate. There is certainly the upside of getting all of those effects on a single card, and at five mana it's not that overcosted, but... it does feel a bit difficult to abuse or build around.
As others have mentioned, if you can double the life loss or take advantage of the mass discard, it looks a lot better. However, I find it unlikely for a deck to be able to take advantage of all the aspects of Fraying Omnipotence - rather, it seems more likely that you would run it for one of the effects, and the other effects would be good or bad depending on the game.
I'll note
Smallpox,
Pox, and
Death Cloud as alternatives (I'm a big fan of Death Cloud as a finisher).
Dire Fleet Ravager is another option if you want percentage life loss.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Fraying Omnipotence
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:24 pm
by ilovesaprolings
10/10 just the right amount of Thanos. Secret Lair Infinity War when?
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Fraying Omnipotence
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:47 am
by Peterhausenn
i use this in my
kaervek the merciless kill everyone deck as a way to speed up the game. yes it hurts me as well, but it is well worth it when the game keeps dragging on. i think that is one of its best uses, to knock everyone down so lethal comes much quicker.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:55 am
by 3drinks
Thursday, November 26th, 2020;
Defiler of Souls
I like this guy. Always tried to slot right into Kaalia but it never stuck, and I never could figure out why. Good, quality top end guy though.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:12 am
by Mookie
Defiler of Souls is sweet, but I haven't been able to slot it into a deck either. I could maybe test it in Kess, but that deck already has plenty of creature removal (and doesn't really have creature synergies). That said, 'gold tribal' is a deck I've been wanting to make for ages, and this could definitely slot in there. A 5/5 flying asymmetric
The Abyss seems sweet.
On the other hand, it may be the case that this is too slow, or it doesn't hit enough creatures. I would estimate most decks to skew towards monocolored creatures, but this also misses most commanders. Hmmm.... Still, as mentioned, this is a big spooky demon, which isn't a bad fail case.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:52 pm
by ilovesaprolings
Hard to justify this card when for 1 less mana you get
Archfiend of Depravity and for 1 more mana you get
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:31 am
by Sinis
3drinks wrote: ↑3 years ago
Thursday, November 26th, 2020; Defiler of Souls
Oh Oh!
I played this one in
Niv-Mizzet Reborn, since every creature was guild coloured. It's a totally sweet card, and I look forward to running it again in another deck with lots of multicoloured cards.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:39 am
by 3drinks
Sinis wrote: ↑3 years ago
3drinks wrote: ↑3 years ago
Thursday, November 26th, 2020; Defiler of Souls
Oh Oh!
I played this one in
Niv-Mizzet Reborn, since every creature was guild coloured. It's a totally sweet card, and I look forward to running it again in another deck with lots of multicoloured cards.
Sweet place for it!
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Defiler of Souls
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:51 am
by Sinis
3drinks wrote: ↑3 years ago
Sinis wrote: ↑3 years ago
3drinks wrote: ↑3 years ago
Thursday, November 26th, 2020; Defiler of Souls
Oh Oh!
I played this one in
Niv-Mizzet Reborn, since every creature was guild coloured. It's a totally sweet card, and I look forward to running it again in another deck with lots of multicoloured cards.
Sweet place for it!
Honestly, I had bought the card some 6-7 years ago, and never played it, but I thought it was really cool and it was bulk back then, so why not?
But, yes, New Mizzet definitely felt like the best home for it. Not sure what the next best home for it would be. Maybe some hand-hate deck like Kroxa.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Copper Gnomes
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:17 am
by 3drinks
Friday, November 27th, 2020;
Copper Gnomes
For those times you can't play
Master Transmuter.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Copper Gnomes
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:26 am
by Mookie
Copper Gnomes seem... well, intriguing. I'll never entirely discount any card that can cheat on mana costs - playing six mana for a
Blightsteel Colossus or other game-winning artifact it pretty potent. I could imagine something like 'T1 Sol Ring, Copper Gnomes → T2 crack Gnomes for nonsense'.
Of course, that's considering the best-case scenario, and the expected value is significantly lower - there's a reason people don't play
Dramatic Entrance or
Show and Tell that often. Spending a card to cheat something out is a pretty significant cost, and at six total mana, Copper Gnomes aren't actually that efficient at doing so. Plus there's the issue of requiring sufficient threat density in your deck - if you're not cheating out something big, a 2 mana 1/1 is terrible.
Anyway, I'll point to
Master Transmuter as a significantly more flexible alternative.
Refurbish and
Sharuum the Hegemon are two other options for cheating out artifacts (although from the graveyard, instead of from hand).
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Copper Gnomes
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:45 am
by not-a-cube
Mookie wrote: ↑3 years ago
Copper Gnomes seem... well, intriguing. I'll never entirely discount any card that can cheat on mana costs - playing six mana for a
Blightsteel Colossus or other game-winning artifact it pretty potent. I could imagine something like 'T1 Sol Ring, Copper Gnomes → T2 crack Gnomes for nonsense'.
Of course, that's considering the best-case scenario, and the expected value is significantly lower - there's a reason people don't play
Dramatic Entrance or
Show and Tell that often. Spending a card to cheat something out is a pretty significant cost, and at six total mana, Copper Gnomes aren't actually that efficient at doing so. Plus there's the issue of requiring sufficient threat density in your deck - if you're not cheating out something big, a 2 mana 1/1 is terrible.
Anyway, I'll point to
Master Transmuter as a significantly more flexible alternative.
Refurbish and
Sharuum the Hegemon are two other options for cheating out artifacts (although from the graveyard, instead of from hand).
I like that the gnome can do it instant speed, that might make a difference, although how much, idk. But as you say, 6 mana blightsteel with flash might be worth it. This needs enough high end artifacts you'd want to cheat out. I feel artifact often generate more value with quantity over quality.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - Copper Gnomes
Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:29 pm
by Toshi
Back in the day a friend of mine had a
Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker deck that used
Copper Gnomes to cheat in
Blightsteel Colossus,
Nullstone Gargoyle,
Wurmcoil Engine and the likes at instant speed. Fun times.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:25 am
by 3drinks
Saturday, November 28th, 2020; commander vows (less the now deprecated vow of malice because it's been......replaced.)
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:52 pm
by DirkGently
I'm always kinda psyched when my opponent puts this on my creature. "sweet, now he's probably not going to use any hard removal on it." That's been happening a fair amount in commander legends limited.
They're fun but honestly they're pretty awful. Most of your scarier creatures do a lot more than just attack, and they don't force the creature to attack so if you're the threat, the aura can easily be an overcosted
Guard Duty with a buff for your enemy's creature - not amazing.
I feel like this cycle assumes a sort of "politics for morons" situation, where you put the aura onto the opponents creature and he thinks "well, you're way in the lead and clearly the threat...but since I can't attack you, I guess I'll attack someone else instead of working together to take you down, hur durrrrr". That in addition to assuming that attacking is the primary use of the creature.
The newer cycle with goad fixed a lot of the problems here by giving you actual value, and preventing the creature from just playing defense. Although they have the downside of potentially being inferior in the 1v1 game, and sometimes they're less good at enchanting your own creatures (for example if you'd rather not attack).
random trivia bit: vow of duty has been the hardest to find uncommon out of the whole set (I'm building a set cube for commander legends). It's also gotta be the worst of the cycle by a mile.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:03 pm
by JWK
These can be okay sometimes in Commander Legends limited, but the Impetus ones, which goad the creature, are much better. Outside limited, I can't imagine playing these or the Impetus versions except maybe - and a really big maybe at that - in some enchantress builds.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:09 pm
by Antis
I have an
Evershrike voltron deck where I play both old Vows in that identity, alongside classic stuff like
Spirit Link and its derivates, cards that besides buffing my illegal commander can also alternatively be used to slow my opponents down when I have a surplus of Auras.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:16 pm
by DirkGently
Evershrike would be such a sweet commander if it were legendary. Damn, I almost forgot about that card.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:29 pm
by Treamayne
JWK wrote: ↑3 years ago
I can't imagine playing these or the Impetus versions except maybe - and a really big maybe at that - in some enchantress builds.
I have some of these in a few of my
Karona, False God decks, and they work well when opponents don't have a sac outlet for her (I also have
Teferi's Veil for when I don't want to share Karona). I also have a Vow or two in
Zedruu.
As for Vows, specifically, I often put them on my own creatures (especially Zedruu), especially if I know/suspect a threaten deck.
Not great, not awful; but very, very niche.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:38 pm
by onering
DirkGently wrote: ↑3 years ago
I'm always kinda psyched when my opponent puts this on my creature. "sweet, now he's probably not going to use any hard removal on it." That's been happening a fair amount in commander legends limited.
They're fun but honestly they're pretty awful. Most of your scarier creatures do a lot more than just attack, and they don't force the creature to attack so if you're the threat, the aura can easily be an overcosted
Guard Duty with a buff for your enemy's creature - not amazing.
I feel like this cycle assumes a sort of "politics for morons" situation, where you put the aura onto the opponents creature and he thinks "well, you're way in the lead and clearly the threat...but since I can't attack you, I guess I'll attack someone else instead of working together to take you down, hur durrrrr". That in addition to assuming that attacking is the primary use of the creature.
The newer cycle with goad fixed a lot of the problems here by giving you actual value, and preventing the creature from just playing defense. Although they have the downside of potentially being inferior in the 1v1 game, and sometimes they're less good at enchanting your own creatures (for example if you'd rather not attack).
random trivia bit: vow of duty has been the hardest to find uncommon out of the whole set (I'm building a set cube for commander legends). It's also gotta be the worst of the cycle by a mile.
I've never thought that the proper way to use these was political. You're supposed to play these on an opponents Voltron commander or big beater so that it can't kill you but can still kill your other opponents. Enchantment based removal also does have additional value over destroy or exile effects as against a commander it won't go to the CZ to be recast next turn, so can be a longer term solution. Giving them evasion and buffing them makes them more effective at killing your other opponents. You shouldn't cast these to convince someone not to attack you, you cast them to prevent them from doing so while helping them pursue a shared goal of eliminating the other players. They help more when your behind than when your ahead.
I don't like them in today's meta because the decks they work against aren't the decks you'll typically face, but I do run them occasionally in aura based decks like Tiana, since if the enchanted creature dies I get these back to cast again. Being able to be an evasive pump for your own commander that can be semi removal in a pinch is also neat flexibility, but that's not enough to be worth it. In CL limited, they are pretty damn good, especially considering how often you run into Voltron decks there.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:13 pm
by Mookie
The Vows are fine if you expect to be dealing with big scary beaters - if you can make those beaters attack your opponents instead of you, then that is better than dealing with them. The issue is that a huge percentage of the creatures that need to be dealt with aren't beaters, and the Vows do nothing to creatures that aren't going to attack. These make more sense if you expect to be in a meta with a bunch of voltron commanders, but most of the time I would prepare more flexible removal.
Prison Term,
Darksteel Mutation, and
Imprisoned in the Moon are some other solid answers to voltron decks that are also significantly more flexible. You don't get the bonus of having the enchanted creature work as a beater on your behalf, but flexibility is good.
I will note that these are a bit more reasonable if you're running an enchantress / voltron deck yourself - these look a lot better when you care about them being an aura or could plausibly put it on your own commander. I could see them being run as removal options in
Tuvasa the Sunlit,
Bruna, Light of Alabaster, or
Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:19 pm
by DirkGently
onering wrote: ↑3 years ago
I've never thought that the proper way to use these was political. You're supposed to play these on an opponents Voltron commander or big beater so that it can't kill you but can still kill your other opponents. Enchantment based removal also does have additional value over destroy or exile effects as against a commander it won't go to the CZ to be recast next turn, so can be a longer term solution. Giving them evasion and buffing them makes them more effective at killing your other opponents. You shouldn't cast these to convince someone not to attack you, you cast them to prevent them from doing so while helping them pursue a shared goal of eliminating the other players. They help more when your behind than when your ahead.
If you're behind, you probably shouldn't be being attacked anyway. That's kinda what I meant by "politics for morons", though perhaps I'm using the term "politics" a bit loosely. If you're behind, it shouldn't be necessary. If you're ahead, it should just give it functional defender at an overpriced rate. Of course there's a middle ground where it might actually steer the creature to attack in another direction, but imo that range is too narrow for a card like this to not suck.
I'd also call out
Spectral Grasp as a far superior version of this effect. If you're way ahead, it still won't steer the creature into your opponents, but at least they don't have motivation to leave the creature on defense (against you). And it's way better 1v1, unless you're planning to enchant your own creature.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:52 pm
by Wallycaine
DirkGently wrote: ↑3 years ago
onering wrote: ↑3 years ago
I've never thought that the proper way to use these was political. You're supposed to play these on an opponents Voltron commander or big beater so that it can't kill you but can still kill your other opponents. Enchantment based removal also does have additional value over destroy or exile effects as against a commander it won't go to the CZ to be recast next turn, so can be a longer term solution. Giving them evasion and buffing them makes them more effective at killing your other opponents. You shouldn't cast these to convince someone not to attack you, you cast them to prevent them from doing so while helping them pursue a shared goal of eliminating the other players. They help more when your behind than when your ahead.
If you're behind, you probably shouldn't be being attacked anyway. That's kinda what I meant by "politics for morons", though perhaps I'm using the term "politics" a bit loosely. If you're behind, it shouldn't be necessary. If you're ahead, it should just give it functional defender at an overpriced rate. Of course there's a middle ground where it might actually steer the creature to attack in another direction, but imo that range is too narrow for a card like this to not suck.
I'd also call out
Spectral Grasp as a far superior version of this effect. If you're way ahead, it still won't steer the creature into your opponents, but at least they don't have motivation to leave the creature on defense (against you). And it's way better 1v1, unless you're planning to enchant your own creature.
I feel like this is a massively oversimplified view of table politics? There's not always a clear "ahead" and "behind". Even when there is, attacks don't exclusively go at the player who is ahead. Oftentimes, the player who is ahead is ahead because they have a better board position, which makes it rather difficult to profitably attack them. This leads to many attacks being decided by who's open, rather than who's ahead. These vows can help with nudging those attacks into other players, while also beefing whatever it is up enough to change the calculus of "who's open".
That said, even taking that into account they're fairly niche. It's often better to actually remove something, because as mentioned there are plenty of things that get value without attacking, or accumulate value that would let your opponent win anyways, even if they're not attacking you. As others have said, it really needs to synergize with the rest of the list before it's a serious consideration, and even then there's likely aura based removal that ranks ahead of it.
Re: [mtgnexus] Random Card of the Day - The Vow Cycle
Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:09 pm
by DirkGently
Wallycaine wrote: ↑3 years ago
I feel like this is a massively oversimplified view of table politics? There's not always a clear "ahead" and "behind". Even when there is, attacks don't exclusively go at the player who is ahead. Oftentimes, the player who is ahead is ahead because they have a better board position, which makes it rather difficult to profitably attack them. This leads to many attacks being decided by who's open, rather than who's ahead. These vows can help with nudging those attacks into other players, while also beefing whatever it is up enough to change the calculus of "who's open".
Pretty sure that's just a longer version of what you quoted within my response:
DirkGently wrote: ↑3 years ago
Of course there's a middle ground where it might actually steer the creature to attack in another direction, but imo that range is too narrow for a card like this to not suck.
