Re: Derevi, ETB Tactician - Value Town
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:04 am
How have the one shot blink/flicker creatures Charming Prince and Restoration Angel been for you?
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Charming Prince has only actually come up a couple of times since I included him, but the few times he has been solid. None of his modes are supremely powerful or anything, but I really like his versatility. Mostly he has flickered something more relevant for me, and then served either as a chump blocker, an extra body for a Derevi trigger, or fodder for a Birthing Pod or Eldritch Evolution.Kitsune_18 wrote: ↑4 years agoHow have the one shot blink/flicker creatures Charming Prince and Restoration Angel been for you?
This post spoke to me on so many levels lol. I'm pretty sure I've had the exact thoughts on most points at one time or another.ZenN wrote: ↑4 years agoCharming Prince has only actually come up a couple of times since I included him, but the few times he has been solid. None of his modes are supremely powerful or anything, but I really like his versatility. Mostly he has flickered something more relevant for me, and then served either as a chump blocker, an extra body for a Derevi trigger, or fodder for a Birthing Pod or Eldritch Evolution.
Restoration Angel has led to some pretty awesome surprise plays, and the 3/4 flying body is solid enough. If I do end up deciding to put in an Archaeomancer at some point, though, it's probably going in over Resto. Man, I wish Archaeomancer sucked less. Like, for being a strictly worse ability than Eternal Witness, and a less aggressive body, you'd think it would at least only cost 3.
Mostly unrelated, after spending a bunch of time looking at Kogla, the Titan Ape for my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, I actually started thinking about including it here. It's a really strong body, with a solid ETB ability, and a strong attack trigger. Plus, it's yet another card that can fill the role of recurring Eternal Witness for the infinite turn lines.
If I did put in a Kogla, I'm pretty sure it would be over Deadeye Navigator. Having DEN back in the deck for the last while has been cool and all, and any game I can stick him and protect him, with any decent ETB creature on the table, I'm getting way ahead. But, every time he does hit the table I get collective groans from my opponents, even if he's not nearly as strong in this format as he once was, and I can't ever just play him out because it immediately tuns the game against me, which means I can't just do it as a value play to get to blink something a couple times for bonus triggers.
Now, where's that's partly related to what I was saying above is that cutting DEN means cutting several possible combo lines, while Kogla only plays into one of the combos. In that combo, Eternal Witness is the only single point of failure, with there being a second "Time Warp", and having like 10 ways to recur an E Wit each turn. Archaeomancer is probably the best E Wit backup for that, even if he sucks, and he's another human which means Kogla still fills that part of the combo regardless of which piece I get.
Maybe I'll get lucky and an upcoming set will contain a better alternative (like a 3 mana Archaeomancer, or a 4 mana Eternal Witness)...
It's definitely a very overlooked property of certain cards. There are some things that are too good to not play, in spite of their tendency to polarize the table against you. For example, Survival of the Fittest. Any time I play with people who know the deck, a Survival on the table represents me maybe going infinite at any time in my next couple of turns.Kitsune_18 wrote: ↑4 years agoAh Deadeye Navigator. You bring up a point that not all players consider/acknowledge when deck-building: the ability of certain powerful cards to turn the table against you (I'm looking at you Consecrated Sphinx, but even a turn 1 Sol Ring can do it). I think it's strictly a multiplayer phenomenon since in 1v1 you're already 100% against your lone opponent. On paper including these card seem like no-brainers, but as you mentioned, it doesn't always work out in practice and is often better to go with something less polarizing.
She's alright. A slow way to repeat an ETB effect or to save a creature, and a way to dig a bit more through the deck, if you've got a solid concentration of Legendary cards. My current version has only a handful, so I'm not sure she'd do all that much for me, but she could be better if you've got like 10+. I think she'd take the same spot as where I currently have Charming Prince.Mr_Webman wrote: ↑4 years agoNiambi, Esteemed Speaker seems really good for this deck! What do you think ZenN?
Spellseeker has been on my short list for a long time. I'm not entirely sure why I've never actually found a slot for her.Kitsune_18 wrote: ↑4 years agoGlad to see you're having good results with the new cards! I got a few games in this weekend as well. Unfortunately the new cards didn't come up as often as I'd have liked. Saw Yorion, Sky Nomad once and it more or less immediately ended a game I was probably going to win anyway, so not much feedback to give there. Kogla, the Titan Ape sat in my hand all of one game; I was more concerned with playing the rest of my hand and didn't want to spend a turn to play him out. I will note that I never once had Birthing Pod and both of these cards might have had a chance to shine more if I had gotten them into play off of that.
I did end up slotting in Archaeomancer just to give it a shot and it performed well. One game by reciting some tutors and removal and another it ended up winning me a game by recurring Time Warp. It is kind of nice having a pseudo-copy of Eternal Witness despite the inferior stats. I'll definitely continue testing it out.
Didn't see Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath or Nezahal, Primal Tide.
I will say that both Spellseeker and Soulherder (especially paired with Reveillark) were huge MVPs in multiple games this weekend.
You are correct, but that's not specific to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. You can do the same thing with Jenara, Asura of War. It's just easier to make sure Derevi is available for a low cost. I've mentioned that one a couple times earlier in the thread. I've chosen not to play it mostly to avoid putting the game into archenemy whenever I play a Birthing Pod, but it's a solid combo line.pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoDerevi offers an instant kill with pod too iirc, going →
Pod derevi into Felidar Guardian
pod felidar guardian into Karmic Guide
pod karmic guide into Deadeye Navigator, pair with guardian blink pod
pod guardian into Peregrine Drake
Or something close to that.
Ah yes, one of the other huge boons I forgot to mention is being able to flash her in on an opponent's turn defensively. I've done this many times. In particular, there's a Thraximundar deck in my group, and I have staved off death many, many times by flashing Derevi in pre-combat to tap down Thrax.
My last Derevi deck is lost to the ravages of the internet unfortunately lolKitsune_18 wrote: ↑4 years agopokken I'd be interested to see your current list, too. Do you have a link?
Oh yeah, when I had a stax subtheme going on I was definitely playing Archon of Valor's Reach, and LOVED cloning it multiple times. There were at least two specific games I can remember where I managed to have 5 copies of Archon on the table at once. (real one, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Clever Impersonator, Body Double)pokken wrote: ↑4 years agoIf I were to build Derevi again I would probably play stax vs. etb. because cloning Archon of Valor's Reach really appeals to my inner jerkface.
D'aww, shucks.
Okie dokie, then. This is going to be a long response.
Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth are some of those "high risk; high reward" ramp cards you often see in the more competitive decks. They are very fast and efficient, but they come with a few gotchas. First, they make whatever land they're enchanting into very tempting Strip Mine targets, and second, specifically for Utopia Sprawl, if you don't have a good count of forests and ways to fetch them, then you're going to have a hard time using it effectively fairly often. At a glance, it may seem these cards don't really synergize with the deck, but they are for one reason: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. Having more permanents that tap for multiple mana means I can more consistently make better use of Derevi's untap triggers, which is very strong. It's strong enough that I'm willing to eat the risk, and plus I do enough land ramping that I'm not usually too worried if one gets blown up. I would not be running these if I were still playing Jenara, Asura of War. It's also worth noting that they're faster than mana dorks. You can play and make use of them right away. There have been many turn 2s where I've played Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl into a 2 drop. Or later turns where I play one of these, then Derevi to untap the enchanted land for something else, allowing me to use my mana very efficiently.Mr_Webman wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat's your opinion on Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth? Why not just run more mana dorks that can be 'clamped?
Let's examine the synergy offered by Sakura-Tribe Elder. It's a cheap ramp creature to go get with Eladamri's Call, Chord of Calling, Finale of Devastation, and Wargate, where the cost of the target actually matters. I can be recurred with Sun Titan and Reveillark. I can die to a Skullclamp when you need it to. In fact, I've previously had it on the table while activating Gavony Township, and then equipped and sacrificed for cards AND a land. Basically it's a Rampant Growth that can be clamped, Birthing Podded, reanimated, cloned, etc. In short, even without an ETB ability, Steve is just that good.
They're fantastic cards, but personally I can't imagine ever including them here over either more ramp creatures, or more things that can tap for multiple mana for Derevi to untap. If I were trying to include more ramp, Yavimaya Dryad would definitely be reincluded first before I'd consider those two here. They would get slightly better if I were playing Spellseeker, as mentioned above, but I just can't get the same value out of them that I can other things.Mr_Webman wrote: ↑4 years agoWould some 2 cmc options like Nature's Lore and Farseek be worthwhile options?
I really only like Oracle of Mul Daya in decks with high land counts, and usually a "lands matter" theme, and often also some top deck manipulation. I would absolutely consider Oracle of Mul Daya in my Maelstrom Wanderer list, but not so much here. It's a slow creature that won't actually do anything except give my opponents free info most of the time, and it's something that isn't great for Podding away on top of that.
I actually really like Growing Rites. I've run it in a few decks in the past. In a deck with this high of a creature count it will most often cantrip, and there are a couple ways here to recur it to keep digging if you want to (Venser, the Sojourner, Venser, Shaper Savant, Sun Titan). It's another thing that taps for multiple mana to get to untap with Derevi, once you manage to flip it, and unlike Gaea's Cradle, it both won't cost you an arm and a leg and also still taps for mana if you've got no creatures. I don't think I have a spot for it here right now, but it's a perfectly fine card.Mr_Webman wrote: ↑4 years agoIf I have a list that partially focuses on tokens, is Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun worth running?
Mana Crypt is expensive, but very, very strong. It can make for some absolutely ridiculous starts, but even later in the game the sudden extra 2 mana on a turn can make for some surprise plays that are much stronger than what the opponent was ready for. Just the other night I had a game where I curved Trinket Mage, getting Mana Crypt, into Eldrazi Displacer + flicker Mage and go get Sol Ring. With the land drops, went from 3 mana to 9 mana in 2 turns, and had lots of mana to flicker things with that Displacer.Kitsune_18 wrote: ↑4 years agoHow instrumental would you say Mana Crypt has been? Same question for Noble Hierarch. I also run Hierarch and it's powered some fast starts, but haven't gotten my hands on a Crypt. I currently run 36 lands but I'm considering cutting one and another card to include Crypt and an Avacyn's Pilgrim. Thoughts?