MTGNexus

As we're close to the end, here's what the deck is starting to shape up into.

Didn't Mob get approved a long time ago? I don't see it on the list.

I'm having a little trouble grokking the main strategies and what I can meaningfully add, but that's my fault due to time restraints. I'm on a little vacation to Hershey Park today.

Let's kill things dead. I nominate Despark.

Yea to Despark. It's the third-best instant-speed universal exiling removal spell in B/W (with Utter End being #1 and Anguished Unmaking being #2) in my book, and while I'd generally place it behind Vindicate in the rankings of B/W removal, it's still very good. That said, given the responses my nomination of Utter End got (the best you can say about it is it isn't Despark, etc.), I don't expect it to get confirmed. Which is a pity. If I end up building this deck (which I very well might), those two would be on a shortlist of cards to add.

I'd have upvoted Utter End. I got here too late.

Naturally, I'm gonna nay Despark. I think it's a bad look to have a spell that can't hit must kills like rhystic study, Sylvan library, or sol ring. That's all too steep of a cost to give up, and orzhov has no shortage of better options.

RxPhantom wrote: ↑

1 year ago

Didn't Mob get approved a long time ago? I don't see it on the list.

I'm having a little trouble grokking the main strategies and what I can meaningfully add, but that's my fault due to time restraints. I'm on a little vacation to Hershey Park today.

Let's kill things dead. I nominate Despark.

I think I vaguely remember Mob and the concensus was you need three creatures just to make it "better than Murder", which is a pretty low bar to clear. To be "good" we really need this to cost one or less, which means this removal is only good at removing creatures when we have four or more bodies on board...that sounds like win-more removal to me, with a terrible floor. I'd think we'd be pretty hard pressed to use this given the math behind it? I bet Murderous Rider // Swift End would be a huge hit if someone brings it to the table though.

Enjoy your trip! Maybe you'll take some terrific pictures to share? I've never been, but I've heard it's gorgeous.

Despark is interesting to discuss. I feel like it's more metagame dependent than power level dependent. Do you're 75% games include top end finishers, cheating out Omniscience, or Bolas's Citadel? Then Despark is probably rather good. But not hitting all the value engines that can make those decks run can be a drawback, whether that's the aforementioned enchantments, Skullclamp or Grim Haruspex. In my experience if you have players who like to ramp out Smothering Tithe and wheels, then it's great. If you're trying not to die to Edric, Spymaster of Trest or Feather, the Redeemed then it's not. It's also not great if you're trying to protect or push through threats in the early turns of combat.

Overall, I think Lulu is going lean more into value over time and isn't trying to be explosive. I'm expecting 3-5 turn cycles after turn 3, when the targets for Despark can resolve. I think that the efficiency in cost and types of games we expect make Despark a reasonable inclusion; if we need more points of interaction. We've meet the threshold for interaction that I generally try to include for value-over-time on-board based interaction decks. (Yes, I typically run somewhat interaction light). In decks like this, I tend to lean more on my value engines, and I feel like we have some low hanging fruit to turn our value engines into more consistent combos.

My vote will be yea if we think we need more interaction/removal, but I need to be convinced that we need that. I'll abstain for now.

I like Utter End too. I,.personally, don't like going light on land hate so the fact that it can exile lands at instant speed is important. Which brings me to..
With the untap shenanigans and sacrifice outlets Mangara of Corondor looks like it could break serious havoc if not properly answered. The auto exile is in the effect, so the stack can get veey interesting with it

Ohmygosh, Mangara would carry sooooooo much weight in this deck, yaaaaaassssss!!

I'll yea Mangara for sure. He seems like fun in any deck that can abuse him, and this one probably can.

Henlock wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I like Utter End too. I,.personally, don't like going light on land hate so the fact that it can exile lands at instant speed is important. Which brings me to...

Utter End famously says non-land.

Jemolk wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I'll yea Mangara for sure. He seems like fun in any deck that can abuse him, and this one probably can.

Here's hoping someone submits it then.

3drinks wrote: ↑

1 year ago

Henlock wrote: ↑

1 year ago

I like Utter End too. I,.personally, don't like going light on land hate so the fact that it can exile lands at instant speed is important. Which brings me to...

Utter End famously says non-land.

Then I don"t like it XD

I was gonna suggest Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim to add some impetus to our plan, but ill go for Mangara of Corondor instead. It feels great to decimate the board by using him as a machine gun.

I see a 1-1 split for Despark and only little discussion for it. I think that means there's more voices for people to weigh in on before calling it. Mangara of Corondor was just suggested late, and thus with no discussion I think that needs to stay open.

For today, let's put @Dunadain and @3drinks on the clock. For my pick, I'm going to recommend my previously mentioned Murderous Rider // Swift End as a versatile instant removal plus a body that Lulu likes (note that it's bottom clause and Lulu's undying are both triggers so you can choose whichever one is more advantageous at the time).

With the cards today, we'll be at 61/64 assuming each card makes it in.

Despark yay - 1 nay - 6
Mangara of Corondor yay - 5 nay - 0
Murderous Rider yay - 1 nay - 4

Last edited: 6:27am pst, 9/26/2022

Yay to Murderous Rider // Swift End and Mangara of Corondor . Nay to despark

Yea Mangara of Corondor, that is a fun card to reuse and fits well mechanically.

Honestly, Murderous Rider // Swift End is a bit difficult to reuse, even in decks built around Haakon, Stromgald Scourge becuase you can't adventure from zones other than your hand. I see it as Murder + a creature here, which is serviceable. I think that it doesn't quite bring enough avenues for repeat use to make up for the limits in targets.

As I was waffling yesterday on Despark, and I think in this case despark would be of equivalent value to murderous rider, I would have probably voted to strike despark and add the rider. However, Mangara is removal at instant speed and fits better into our engines. My offical votes will be nay on both Despark and Murderous Rider // Swift End becuase I think mangara outperforms both.

Mangara? Maaannnggaaarrrraaaa?! Yyyaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!!

Nay to Despark, I really think that unexpectedly absent is the better pick. Sorry 3drinks but I can't get with a hero's downfall effect. Monkey is right, it's awkward here, we can do better!

Yay Mangara

Based on discussion points, I am naying despark and Murderous Rider. I just think we have better options in these colors.

Unexpectedly Absent seems like the most glaring omission so far

Whoops, I don't check in for one day and it's my day, predictable.

I'll nominate Unexpectedly Absent as others have said, it's one of the most versatile answers in white and it's pretty darn cheap as well.

Also, yay to mangara, nay to despark

I think it's clear the community has spoken on Despark and Murderous Rider and expressed love on Mangara in the style of deck that best suits it. Mangara has been confirmed and that brings us to 59/64 cards,

I'm leaving Unexpectedly Absent up, from last night's picks to generate discussion on it. On the clock today as we start winding down will be @Crazy Monkey and @kirkusjones.

I would nominate Phyrexian Altar for value/combo, but it's right over the edge of our budget limit. I will instead nominate the new option.

I nominate Relic of Legends.

I'm going to nominate Toxic Deluge. One of the best sweepers in the game, and with all of the recursion we run, losing or saccing our creatures in response makes it a win-win. If it's out for budgetary reasons, my back up is Winds of Abandon.

EDIT - yea to Relic of Legends. I'd definitely yea Phyrexian Altar if we make the exception for it like we did for Yawgmoth, Thran Physician.

I will Yay Deluge and/or Wings of Abandon

I am not the most certain about relic of legends. Other than Lulu, we have 3 legendary creatures, so this isn't going to shine. But it does tap Lulu, so Yay.

I really would like some more sac outlets. We have 6 right now, and some of them are one-time effects. Eradicator Valkyrie ?
Viscera Seer ?
I know we will play some lands that can sac creatures, but usually they only sac one creature at a time.

I'd think the proper analogue to phyrexian altar (and the budget cutoff is $35, not $30 so it would make it at present) is ashnod's altar, not relic of legends no?

Toxic deluge is an easy yay.

I like that Eradicator Valkyrie suggestion but boast is limited to combat and it's not free. I think it's too many hoops...but it is a sweet angel. Maybe that means fallen angel|leg is superior?

hmm, I think Relic is alright, it does tap lulu. I'm not an enemy of 3cmc rocks. I think i'll yay.

Yay to toxic deluxe.

I never played with Unexpectedly Absent and I dont know how good it is TBH. I'm not great on the whole evaluating thing, so I'll pass on my vote here

Yay to deluge and relic