Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 12:39 pm
Naaahhhhhhhhhhh... (Kill it! Kill it with fire!)
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Naaahhhhhhhhhhh... (Kill it! Kill it with fire!)
I mean, yes, you can, but for me at least, that defeats the point of Thawing Glaciers, which is to ensure that you hit your land drops every turn, and you play it in a deck that really, really cares about that. If you can untap Thawing Glaciers, though -- for example, with Deserted Temple -- that's solid ramp, and could even be entirely colorless. Now, the use of Cleansing Wildfire or Geomancer's Gambit on the Citadel or Cataracts is legit.ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑2 years agoRandom fun red tech but you can activate Thawing Glaciers on your turn and then hit it with Cleansing Wildfire / Geomancer's Gambit for some weird red ramp (Thawing doesn't bounce until end of turn). I hadn't seen the interaction before but its kinda cute. You can also use these spells on things like Darksteel Citadel / Cascading Cataracts for a similar effect.
Its not crazy but it can be useful in some of the red based spellslinger concepts. I felt it was minor enough I would just toss it here to see if others had seen it before.
I had a decent bit of fun and success with a RWx build running a bunch of Karoo and Lotus Field type lands plus white's "return a permanent with CMC 2-3 or less from GY to play", catch-up ramp like Archaeomancer's Map, and Faith's Reward type effects. It did especially well with super-ramp green players at the table, but it could also do kooky things like Archaeo's Map + Aggressive Mining or Nahiri's Lithoforming + Second Sunrise.ISBPathfinder wrote: ↑2 years agoRandom fun red tech but you can activate Thawing Glaciers on your turn and then hit it with Cleansing Wildfire / Geomancer's Gambit for some weird red ramp (Thawing doesn't bounce until end of turn). I hadn't seen the interaction before but its kinda cute. You can also use these spells on things like Darksteel Citadel / Cascading Cataracts for a similar effect.
Its not crazy but it can be useful in some of the red based spellslinger concepts. I felt it was minor enough I would just toss it here to see if others had seen it before.
At least for me, they have fairly different metas, with multiple casual metagame environments in the area, but one fairly inbred cEDH meta. So going back to the original question, some cards that are optimal for the cEDH meta are mediocre in a casual one.DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years agoSo without further information it can be hard to tell what's actually going on.
You also said they were "weapons", which to me implies power and not ease of play. Otherwise surely Chromatic Lantern would be #1 lol. I guess maybe I'm not sure what metric you're using exactly.Toshi wrote: ↑2 years agoYikes, should've chosen my words more wisely. I didn't mean "easy" as in "plug it into any deck and you'll be fine anyhow".
What i meant with "easy mode" is that enables plenty of things (filtering, draw triggers, top deck rearrangement, securing land drops, ...) you might want out of a card - at instant speed and for one mana.
It's interesting how individual cards interact with power level. While sol ring is obviously very powerful (and sol ring and crypt are almost certainly #1 and #2 in terms of raw power), simply having a sol ring doesn't make a deck overall THAT much better. I think the best example, though, is Demonic Tutor. One of the best cards in a powerful deck, but not that great in a casual deck. Still fine, of course, but hardly game-breaking.TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑2 years agoThe card I most see warp games is Sol Ring, but only because Mana Crypt is less widely available.
Maybe it's been my change(s) of location, but it used to be that cEDH was basically standard-style, where you picked one of the ten metadecks. And the non-c-EDH was usually quite a ways away from that. Now, I see a lot more decks that have crept into that in-between space where they're playing powerful combos and low curves but aren't exactly meta.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years agoAt least for me, they have fairly different metas, with multiple casual metagame environments in the area, but one fairly inbred cEDH meta. So going back to the original question, some cards that are optimal for the cEDH meta are mediocre in a casual one.
I tend to think its tied up in price point for a lot of people mentally. They assume that if you can afford an FoW theres no telling what else you can afford. And that varies, for some it rings true, some it was a lucky pull from a masters pack and some its the diamond in the rough from their collection. As far as correlation for cedh its my understanding that proxying is widely accepted as long as a single copy of a card is owned or similar. It would be an incredibly restrictive format without that sort of attitude I would think. But yeah that sort of mental extrapolation shouldn't feature as much as it does with threat assessment.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years agoThe one reason why I don't want a Tergrid ban is that she has successfully forced Korvold out of area. Also, there is this perception of power level that a lot of the new stuff gets past for whatever reason, but old staples run into. So even if a guy saves the table with Force of Will, say, I've seen the table turn around and go "he's playing FoW, that's a broken card! Get him!". This sort of norm-based politics defines the deckbuilding and meta of casual, and is non-existent in cEDH, which has led to cEDH sort of becoming its own little world, even as casual goes through periods of power creep. Maybe that's just a local thing, or an effect of playing in a university town, or the outcome of some inscrutable drama I missed, but it's given the two a sharper cultural and metagame boundary than ever before.
There are different levels of analysis for this. A card's power can warp a game, warp a deck, warp a meta, or warp a format around itself. Sol Ring does that last one, and it might be the only card that does that in Commander.DirkGently wrote: ↑2 years agoIt's interesting how individual cards interact with power level. While sol ring is obviously very powerful (and sol ring and crypt are almost certainly #1 and #2 in terms of raw power), simply having a sol ring doesn't make a deck overall THAT much better. I think the best example, though, is Demonic Tutor. One of the best cards in a powerful deck, but not that great in a casual deck. Still fine, of course, but hardly game-breaking.
I don't particularly see Sol Ring as format warping at all. Sol Ring can enable degenerate stuff but it in and of itself doesn't push someone towards degenerate plays.
I mean, there is a fairly roundabout way in which Force of Will might be an indication of a higher power level deck -- if you're running it, that's an indication that you're worried about higher power level decks more broadly (because Force is more a necessary evil than a good card; the alternate cost is far higher than mere mana, so you only want to use it when someone unexpectedly tries to win the game when you thought it was safe to tap out, or does so on a super early turn before you can have other counters up). And people who are worried about running into higher powered decks are more likely to power up their own. But I don't think that's the thought process, somehow. And also, just punishing combo decks is a perfectly valid use for Force of Will that can actually improve a casual meta. I've been known to run it for exactly that reason. No, the counterspells that would worry me if I saw them would be Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep. Those indicate that you're going for super low CMC over everything else, and I'd be wondering what you regularly play against that means you need them, and what that says about what you're probably playing.BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years agoAlso, there is this perception of power level that a lot of the new stuff gets past for whatever reason, but old staples run into. So even if a guy saves the table with Force of Will, say, I've seen the table turn around and go "he's playing FoW, that's a broken card! Get him!".
Amusingly I run Mental Misstep not because of the reasons you state but solely because some day I'm going to Mental Misstep someone's T1 Sol Ring when I have no lands in play. I expect their tears will sustain me for years to come.Jemolk wrote: ↑2 years agoNo, the counterspells that would worry me if I saw them would be Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep. Those indicate that you're going for super low CMC over everything else, and I'd be wondering what you regularly play against that means you need them, and what that says about what you're probably playing.
There are exceptions to almost everything, admittedly, and this is a big one. If I saw you do it, I'd probably warily ask, "Wait, why are you running Mental Misstep...?" and when you explained, burst out laughing and offer you a high five. That's delightful. Wrecking people running mindless staples is always amusing, and while I'd generally prefer to do it with more obscure cards, overly narrow ones can work as well.materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoAmusingly I run Mental Misstep not because of the reasons you state but solely because some day I'm going to Mental Misstep someone's T1 Sol Ring when I have no lands in play. I expect their tears will sustain me for years to come.Jemolk wrote: ↑2 years agoNo, the counterspells that would worry me if I saw them would be Flusterstorm and Mental Misstep. Those indicate that you're going for super low CMC over everything else, and I'd be wondering what you regularly play against that means you need them, and what that says about what you're probably playing.
Well, CK after grading is giving me 445, but considering the conditions of the cards, all were in one deck or more over the years and played, it's more than I was honestly was expecting (after grading I honestly expected about 300 as not to get my hopes up). But it's enough to get an xbox series x with a trade-in at game stop.materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoI'm hesitant to pull the trigger on my collection because prices seem to just be going up. I'm curious to why you're cashing out now and not holding for another couple years.
I did the same with Tatyova, Benthic Druid recently. Literally looked through every card i could find in the house, garage and deck boxes anywhere on ny property. I even had it in a deck at one point. It never turned up and now I've just decided to take the hit, as small as it is, and pony up for a copy.Dunharrow wrote: ↑2 years agoI have spent the last hour looking for Fatestitcher. I know I have 4 of them. I know I saw them in the last couple days. I am going insane. I need to sleep but I just want to find it.
Checkmate?materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoAmusingly I run Mental Misstep not because of the reasons you state but solely because some day I'm going to Mental Misstep someone's T1 Sol Ring when I have no lands in play. I expect their tears will sustain me for years to come.
More like solmate, amirite?tstorm823 wrote: ↑2 years agoCheckmate?materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoAmusingly I run Mental Misstep not because of the reasons you state but solely because some day I'm going to Mental Misstep someone's T1 Sol Ring when I have no lands in play. I expect their tears will sustain me for years to come.
I think me putting Mental Misstep in my deck to counter someone's T1 Sol Ring for meme value is actively lowering my winrate. Playing a card in your deck specifically to hose exactly Sol Ring is actively a bad decision. In fact Mental Missteping someone's T1 Sol Ring is probably not even the correct play in a lot of games. I'm aware of that and doing it anyway because I find it funny.tstorm823 wrote: ↑2 years agoCheckmate?materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoAmusingly I run Mental Misstep not because of the reasons you state but solely because some day I'm going to Mental Misstep someone's T1 Sol Ring when I have no lands in play. I expect their tears will sustain me for years to come.
It's not about winrate. It's about the amount people's decisions actually are effected by a card existing. A card winning a lot of games isn't itself a downside. Only when a card is so good at winning that it impacts the way people play the entire format can it become problematic. It doesn't really matter if Sol Ring is winning lots of games itself, it absolutely impacts the way people play this entire format, and the play patterns without it are more fun and more consistent.materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoI think me putting Mental Misstep in my deck to counter someone's T1 Sol Ring for meme value is actively lowering my winrate.
I've killed opponents because I knew they had Expropriate somewhere in their deck. I've gone out and bought 6 Scavenger Grounds because a new game store in town had an addiction to graveyard decks. I built Tivadar of Thorn because my playgroup had a Mono- phase.tstorm823 wrote: ↑2 years agoIt's not about winrate. It's about the amount people's decisions actually are effected by a card existing.materpillar wrote: ↑2 years agoI think me putting Mental Misstep in my deck to counter someone's T1 Sol Ring for meme value is actively lowering my winrate.