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Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:10 pm
by kirkusjones
Hermes_ wrote: ↑2 years ago
I think i'm gonna sell off the non-deck cards after the new year.
Do it! It's a great feeling. Cardsphere has been a really good resource to make it happen, too. Old-bordering Grismold as a side project to selling off my collection has been really fun.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:29 pm
by TheAmericanSpirit
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote: ↑2 years ago
I get it, people are sick of it, and it's kinda funny (meaning no offense to anyone here) but I compare it to the cartoonish notion of how non-Americans see Americans - 'muuh Freedom pew pew pew' - that's literally Aucklanders here.
No offense taken. My country is totally bonkers right now; half the country sees a legitimate threat looming, the other half would rather die than do what their government says is necessary. Frankly, I figured our previous 20 years of lackluster leaders and frequent warmongering would doom our international reputation eventually but covid really showed our true colors and it is not a flattering pallete.
The craziest thing? Nobody here even cares that we look like the globe's most well-armed dunces. Nobody. I feel bad for everyone who's counting on us, cause we're drowning ourselves.
I feel like I've said this before, but do you think the Romans living in the last days of the empire were aware of it? Or did they see the approaching germanic tribesmen and think "oooh, that's a creative take on clothing!"
If it was anything like America today, I'd say 35% would've been very concerned, 40% would deny the end is nigh, 5% wouldn't give 2 %$#% either way so long as they stood to profit, and 20% just would be too poor to be bothered about any of it given more immediate concerns.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:56 pm
by BeneTleilax
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
I feel like I've said this before, but do you think the Romans living in the last days of the empire were aware of it? Or did they see the approaching germanic tribesmen and think "oooh, that's a creative take on clothing!"
Rome was destroyed in detail, and thus for different groups it 'fell' at different times. If you were a tenant farmer, it fell during the Diocletian land "reforms" in the 280s, when the emperor decided to simplify taxes by preventing tenant farmers from leaving or changing jobs, leaving them at the mercy of their manor lords. If you were a merchant, it fell sometime in the early to mid 400s, when the Vandalic wars disrupted Mediterranean transport enough to fragment the "Roman lake". If you were a noble, it happened when the local warlord showed up at your doorstep and decided he liked your castle, or you decided to hedge your bets and start learning German, up to four centuries later. If you were an artisan, or otherwise "middle class", it fell whenever the local aqueduct collapsed for want of maintenance and everyone got cholera.
"First they came for" is overused, but it really is the only way international orders fall. Any single crisis or administrative snafu will leave it damaged, but recognizable and repairable. It is only after effective repairs stop, that damage begins to accumulate over centuries, that such an order falls. So it will be for America. At the same time, I imagine it was little consolation for the peasants when their lord took half a millennium after their fall to take down his Roman colors and start wearing pants. Destruction in detail doesn't feel so gradual if you're the detail being destroyed.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:32 pm
by Hermes_
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 10:58 pm
by kirkusjones
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
I feel like I've said this before, but do you think the Romans living in the last days of the empire were aware of it? Or did they see the approaching germanic tribesmen and think "oooh, that's a creative take on clothing!"
Rome was destroyed in detail, and thus for different groups it 'fell' at different times. If you were a tenant farmer, it fell during the Diocletian land "reforms" in the 280s, when the emperor decided to simplify taxes by preventing tenant farmers from leaving or changing jobs, leaving them at the mercy of their manor lords. If you were a merchant, it fell sometime in the early to mid 400s, when the Vandalic wars disrupted Mediterranean transport enough to fragment the "Roman lake". If you were a noble, it happened when the local warlord showed up at your doorstep and decided he liked your castle, or you decided to hedge your bets and start learning German, up to four centuries later. If you were an artisan, or otherwise "middle class", it fell whenever the local aqueduct collapsed for want of maintenance and everyone got cholera.
"First they came for" is overused, but it really is the only way international orders fall. Any single crisis or administrative snafu will leave it damaged, but recognizable and repairable. It is only after effective repairs stop, that damage begins to accumulate over centuries, that such an order falls. So it will be for America. At the same time, I imagine it was little consolation for the peasants when their lord took half a millennium after their fall to take down his Roman colors and start wearing pants. Destruction in detail doesn't feel so gradual if you're the detail being destroyed.
Thank you for the incredibly informative post. With the obscene level of connection in modern society, do you think a rapidly cascading collapse is more likely? I feel like information (and therefore panic) travels so fast and recent history has revealed that so many of the "responsible" adults in the room have been skating by with the "fake it til you make it" philosophy that the luxury of slow collapse isn't something we can afford.
I've been deep in the Dark Tower lately and the more I listen the more I feel like I'm living in the time where the world has begun to move on.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:07 pm
by BeneTleilax
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
I feel like information (and therefore panic) travels so fast and recent history has revealed that so many of the "responsible" adults in the room have been skating by with the "fake it til you make it" philosophy that the luxury of slow collapse isn't something we can afford.
States are so much more stable than their parts. The HRE killed a
third of their population in a sectarian civil war that makes Yemen look cozy, and still managed to limp on as a geopolitical force until Napoleon, two centuries later. Nukes could do us in, but short of that, the state/international apparatus will endure. At the same time, that also means basic quality of life has a
very long way to fall before the US truly goes belly-up.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:21 am
by TheGildedGoose
Meanwhile:
It can't happen soon enough.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:24 am
by BeneTleilax
Imagine actively hoping for a rapid succession of unmitigated humanitarian disasters.
Let's be clear, that's what I'm talking about. The difference between a state or international system being dissolved by choice and forced into collapse is the difference between going to sleep in one's bed and being beaten until one loses consciousness. Also, if you have any awareness of recent history, violent state collapses tend not to be great for the environment anyways.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:25 pm
by TheGildedGoose
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
Imagine actively hoping for a rapid succession of unmitigated humanitarian disasters.
It's likely already too late to change course and besides that, global leaders very obviously do not care. I just want to get it over with. I'd rather get hit by a meteorite than go down on a sinking ship.
Let's be clear, that's what I'm talking about. The difference between a state or international system being dissolved by choice and forced into collapse is the difference between going to sleep in one's bed and being beaten until one loses consciousness. Also, if you have any awareness of recent history, violent state collapses tend not to be great for the environment anyways.
You're missing the point. You're worried about termites while the house is on fire.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:41 pm
by BeneTleilax
Doomer mentality has become wholly uncoupled from critical thought. We do not live in a YA novel, where the apocalypse just clears away all the obligations and hard problems, leaving the plucky heroes to rebuild everything in between love triangles. Far more likely it simply ushers in the oh-so-eco-friendly Millennium of Bushmeat, Radiation and Woodstoves.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:27 pm
by Hermes_
it's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine......
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:39 pm
by TheGildedGoose
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
Doomer mentality has become wholly uncoupled from critical thought. We do not live in a YA novel, where the apocalypse just clears away all the obligations and hard problems, leaving the plucky heroes to rebuild everything in between love triangles. Far more likely it simply ushers in the oh-so-eco-friendly Millennium of Bushmeat, Radiation and Woodstoves.
I think you mean Waterworld. Until the seas boil, anyway.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:46 pm
by BeneTleilax
I get that you want all of us to die so you and your friends can have cool adventures in our ruins. You have made that abundantly clear.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:07 pm
by TheGildedGoose
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
I get that you want all of us to die so you and your friends can have cool adventures in our ruins. You have made that abundantly clear.
Only if we get to treat the jet skis like horses.
Please be careful of your tone. This comment can be perceived as flippant and insensitive, and given the potentially serious tone of this particular conversation, I strongly advise that for awareness of your words and potential tone! - benjameenbear
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:18 pm
by TheAmericanSpirit
TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑2 years ago
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
Imagine actively hoping for a rapid succession of unmitigated humanitarian disasters.
It's likely already too late to change course and besides that, global leaders very obviously do not care. I just want to get it over with. I'd rather get hit by a meteorite than go down on a sinking ship.
This is a pretty fatalistic mode of thinking, but even I cannot deny its appeal. I'd also rather get chopped quick than succumb to a slow boil.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:30 pm
by BeneTleilax
TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑2 years ago
This is a pretty fatalistic mode of thinking, but even I cannot deny its appeal.
That is your choice, I believe, in regard to yourself, but sending countless others to the knife, to spare yourself the pot? That is atrocity.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:48 pm
by TheAmericanSpirit
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑2 years ago
This is a pretty fatalistic mode of thinking, but even I cannot deny its appeal.
That is your choice, I believe, in regard to yourself, but sending countless others to the knife, to spare yourself the pot? That is atrocity.
Atrocity? I thought it was statistics at that point.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:46 pm
by DirkGently
This thread is certainly living up to its name today.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:48 pm
by Lorn Asbord Schutta
TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑2 years ago
TheGildedGoose wrote: ↑2 years ago
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
Imagine actively hoping for a rapid succession of unmitigated humanitarian disasters.
It's likely already too late to change course and besides that, global leaders very obviously do not care. I just want to get it over with. I'd rather get hit by a meteorite than go down on a sinking ship.
This is a pretty fatalistic mode of thinking, but even I cannot deny its appeal. I'd also rather get chopped quick than succumb to a slow boil.
But where is the appeal? While struggle may yield nothing in the end, it is impossible to predict that before the said end. Giving up on the other hand always gives the same result. Death is inevitable, pain - while certainly vary in type or intensity - is a standard course of life, but only by fighting through there can be something to be proud of.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:59 pm
by kirkusjones
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑2 years ago
This is a pretty fatalistic mode of thinking, but even I cannot deny its appeal.
That is your choice, I believe, in regard to yourself, but sending countless others to the knife, to spare yourself the pot? That is atrocity.
This is an accusation better leveled at those who continue to worship at the altar of profit above all else, I think. Although I don't claim to know TheAmericanSpirit's mind, they could easily be bowing before the god of "I Got Mine, C U Later Sh*tlords" too.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:53 pm
by BeneTleilax
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
This is an accusation better leveled at those who continue to worship at the altar of profit above all else
That is also bad. It's the "condemning multitudes to agony" bit that makes it bad. The reason why just fails to redeem it. It doesn't really matter if you're condemning multitudes to agony because money, or because you want to plant trees in our ribcages. Prima facie evil %$#% doesn't stop being prima facie evil %$#% if you signal left-wing ideologies.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:01 am
by kirkusjones
BeneTleilax wrote: ↑2 years ago
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
This is an accusation better leveled at those who continue to worship at the altar of profit above all else
That is also bad. It's the "condemning multitudes to agony" bit that makes it bad. The reason why just fails to redeem it. It doesn't really matter if you're condemning multitudes to agony because money, or because you want to plant trees in our ribcages. Prima facie evil %$#% doesn't stop being prima facie evil %$#% if you signal left-wing ideologies.
Sorry, apparently my point didn't come across. I'm saying that the accusation of condemning the majority to the pot should be leveled at those who seek profit above all else.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:02 am
by pokken
I'm a crotchety cynical old man but I can't help but look at the uptick in renewables and the next generation starting to re-ignite the labor rights movement and feel more hopeful than I have in a long time personally
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:02 am
by TheAmericanSpirit
Whoa, okay, don't read too deep into my statements please. I'm an armchair nihilist at best and I don't actually wish anyone any harm or death. However, I am now considering joining the church of "I Got Mine, C U Later Sh*tlords". It's probably my best chance at being canonized thus far (inb4 I am posthumously proclaimed Supreme Douchelord of the religion!).
Edit: Mods, I'd like to claim precedent and a religious exemption for evading the censor. If that won't fly, go on and slide me up to level 2. I'll eat it for my faith.
Edit 2: just so we're clear, mad respect to all sides of this debate. It really made my day to read all of everyone's thoughts in this converastion. Better than %$#% TV, man.
Re: [Off-Topic] Community Chat Thread
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:13 am
by BeneTleilax
kirkusjones wrote: ↑2 years ago
I'm saying that the accusation of condemning the majority to the pot should be leveled at those who seek profit above all else.
It was a direct response to Goose saying flat out that they would sentence countless humans to agonizing death for their own benefit. "This other thing is also bad" is such a weird non sequitur to calling someone out for overtly advocating total ruin. I get that they're probably trolling, but its still such a wretched sentiment I feel it must be called out.