MTGNexus

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

3 years ago

A 3 mana commander that drew 2 cards when it attacked would be pretty roundly panned, imo, and this is barely better than that on average with a significant downside.

I dunno, tymna is pretty popular. Part of that is being a partnerand she does have some sequences where she lets you draw right when she comes down but most of her sequences read draw two pay two if you have dudes to attack with.

I think you're underselling how powerful draw two cards on attack is.. if it just did that it would be one of the best commanders in the game.

If Tymna had to personally attack to draw those cards, though? Significantly less valuable. I *really* doubt a 2/3 flyer for 3 that drew 2 cards when attacking would even be considered by the vast majority of players.

The card is boring, that's my problem. It'll be more obnoxious if it's overplayed and boring, but even if it's underplayed or forgotten, it's still boring. That's why I'm mostly annoyed at this as part of a trend. As WotC keeps making the same dull value engines, some of them become fixtures, some of them see play, some of them suck, and the format as whole drifts towards commanders-as-card-draw-machines. So I call out the pattern with each iteration.

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

3 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

3 years ago

A 3 mana commander that drew 2 cards when it attacked would be pretty roundly panned, imo, and this is barely better than that on average with a significant downside.

I dunno, tymna is pretty popular. Part of that is being a partnerand she does have some sequences where she lets you draw right when she comes down but most of her sequences read draw two pay two if you have dudes to attack with.

I think you're underselling how powerful draw two cards on attack is.. if it just did that it would be one of the best commanders in the game.

If Tymna had to personally attack to draw those cards, though? Significantly less valuable. I *really* doubt a 2/3 flyer for 3 that drew 2 cards when attacking would even be considered by the vast majority of players.

If it had to deal combat damage it would be questionable but a 3 mana flyer that draws 2 cards every time would be a mainstay in a lot of decks. I don't think it would break the format or anything, but I think it would see a fair amount of play in the colors that could play it. It basically reads as "draw 2 extra cards every turn" and being a 3 drop means it is very likely to get decent use out of early and being a flyer means it is pretty easy to ensure it isn't just blocked. And then even if it is blocked, you still get the 2 cards that turn.

I think the truth really ends up landing somewhere between both of your thoughts.

BeneTleilax wrote: ↑

3 years ago

The card is boring, that's my problem. It'll be more obnoxious if it's overplayed and boring, but even if it's underplayed or forgotten, it's still boring. That's why I'm mostly annoyed at this as part of a trend. As WotC keeps making the same dull value engines, some of them become fixtures, some of them see play, some of them suck, and the format as whole drifts towards commanders-as-card-draw-machines. So I call out the pattern with each iteration.

I agree it's boring, but EDH games can stall out really easily into ugly topdeck stalemates, same as limited. Card draw commanders are WotC's inelegant solution to keeping things moving. It's not a great fix, but there's no putting the efreet back in the bottle now. So long as they're safely below Korvold/Chulane power, it's not so bad imho. Just a wee bit dull.

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

3 years ago

If Tymna had to personally attack to draw those cards, though? Significantly less valuable. I *really* doubt a 2/3 flyer for 3 that drew 2 cards when attacking would even be considered by the vast majority of players.

I would guarantee it'd be a top ten commander as long as it had blue in it. There is nothing even close to generating 2 cards a turn in the command zone at 3 cmc in the command zone without serious dependencies. Attacking as a 2/3 flyer might as well be free.

I can't even think of anything close - everything else is like Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow that requires other dudes to attack to maximize. Edric, Spymaster of Trest can do it, but requires a pretty significant setup cost of playing crap cards.

This hypothetical commander would basically be Rhystic Study in the command zone that doesn't have any dependencies at all. It'd be beyond busted.

The only reason this card won't be insanely popular is 1) the life loss (casuals hate life loss) and 2) the amount of time consumed in flipping 5 coins/rolling 5 dice and tabulating every turn. It's annoying and most people would do it slowly. It can be done fast, but it's stiill a bit of an obnoxious mechanic.

edit: The life loss is very significant and balances it toward the 'niche not busted' side of the spectrum. On that I'll agree

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

2) the amount of time consumed in flipping 5 coins/rolling 5 dice and tabulating every turn. It's annoying and most people would do it slowly. It can be done fast, but it's stiill a bit of an obnoxious mechanic.

I don't think that's going to be an issue, really. Just roll 5 dice at once, take 2 for each odd, draw 1 for each even or something like that. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds. More time will be lost in thinking what to do after drawing 2-3 new cards. There are way worse attack triggers in the game in terms of time consumption.

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

3 years ago

I agree it's boring, but EDH games can stall out really easily into ugly topdeck stalemates, same as limited. Card draw commanders are WotC's inelegant solution to keeping things moving. It's not a great fix, but there's no putting the efreet back in the bottle now. So long as they're safely below Korvold/Chulane power, it's not so bad imho. Just a wee bit dull.

I find the cold wars and building tension of topdeck stalemates much more interesting than an uninterrupted stream of threats. Also, reliable card draw in the CZ promotes simplistic and goodstuff deckbuilding, in my experience.

BeneTleilax wrote: ↑

3 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

3 years ago

I agree it's boring, but EDH games can stall out really easily into ugly topdeck stalemates, same as limited. Card draw commanders are WotC's inelegant solution to keeping things moving. It's not a great fix, but there's no putting the efreet back in the bottle now. So long as they're safely below Korvold/Chulane power, it's not so bad imho. Just a wee bit dull.

I find the cold wars and building tension of topdeck stalemates much more interesting than an uninterrupted stream of threats. Also, reliable card draw in the CZ promotes simplistic and goodstuff deckbuilding, in my experience.

I hear you, I'm just acknowledging the great "why" of it all. WotC doesn't really "get" EDH, Maro's admitted as much in the past. So when they see complex, clogged up board states in EDH games, they see that as a problem to be fixed as opposed to a norm to encourage.
I'll just spew an unpopular opinion too while I'm on this: The "good ol' days" of pre-2011 EDH games were often big, multi-hour slogs. Games took a loooooong time. Things are faster now and stalemates far less inevitable than back then. I think this is overall good for the format, even if I wish we had taken a different avenue to get here.

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

3 years ago

WotC doesn't really "get" EDH

So much this.

Dragoon wrote: ↑

3 years ago

I don't think that's going to be an issue, really. Just roll 5 dice at once, take 2 for each odd, draw 1 for each even or something like that. It shouldn't take more than a few seconds. More time will be lost in thinking what to do after drawing 2-3 new cards. There are way worse attack triggers in the game in terms of time consumption.

You would be amazed how much time people can make stuff like that take. That coin flip partner pair from battlebond always made me want to tear my hair out when I saw it.

You and I would make it fast. Most MTGS players would. The magic community is not most MTGS players

Yeah, you have to attack to draw those cards! In the colors that have extra turns and extra combats! nobody will do anything boring and degenerate with that.

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

3 years ago

The "good ol' days" of pre-2011 EDH games were often big, multi-hour slogs. Games took a loooooong time. Things are faster now and stalemates far less inevitable than back then. I think this is overall good for the format, even I wish we had taken a different avenue to get here.

I wish the metagame had time to adapt to people running adequate and diverse removal before the introduction of threats designed to almost break it. The inevitability, in my experience, came from people not running *nearly* enough answers and then getting gnawed to death by random 5/5s.

tstorm823 wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Yeah, you have to attack to draw those cards! In the colors that have extra turns and extra combats! nobody will do anything boring and degenerate with that.

I would expect 90% of the decks to be about finding Krark's Thumb and drawing 4+ cards a turn off their commander, which seems tedious for sure

(And eventually combo'ing off when they hit all 5)

BeneTleilax wrote: ↑

3 years ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote: ↑

3 years ago

The "good ol' days" of pre-2011 EDH games were often big, multi-hour slogs. Games took a loooooong time. Things are faster now and stalemates far less inevitable than back then. I think this is overall good for the format, even I wish we had taken a different avenue to get here.

I wish the metagame had time to adapt to people running adequate and diverse removal before the introduction of threats designed to almost break it. The inevitability, in my experience, came from people not running *nearly* enough answers and then getting gnawed to death by random 5/5s.

Sure, but there just wasn't as many game-ending threats back then so the need for removal was relatively less. Storm Herd used to be a legit wincon just for perspective. The more powerful edh became as a format, the more removal crept back into necessity. These two things are inextricably entwined. You can't subtract the current era of powercreep from EDH and still retain all the gameplay adjustments players made to adapt to it. Hence why I still consider the format's progression from 2011 onwards a net positive, albeit a checkered one.

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Yeah, you have to attack to draw those cards! In the colors that have extra turns and extra combats! nobody will do anything boring and degenerate with that.

I would expect 90% of the decks to be about finding Krark's Thumb and drawing 4+ cards a turn off their commander, which seems tedious for sure

The other side effect of this that further increase the time sink is that Thumb makes the easy shortcuts of roll X dice not work, making it roll 2 dice X times. The importance of Thumb in a deck like this means it will be in play often.

I considered adding this to my Krarkashima so I can have more thumbs, but realized that making a time sink deck even more of a time sink is...not a good idea.

Crazy Monkey wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Thumb makes the easy shortcuts of roll X dice not work, making it roll 2 dice X times.

You can kinda shortcut this by just rerolling failures, since you can only have one success. But still tedious

Excessive dice rolling and coin flipping monopolize playtime and IMO that's a cardinal sin.

I somehow overlooked Thrasta, Tempest's Roar as another mono green storm commander, similar to Ghalta, Primal Hunger that can pay for its commander tax and generate value with sacrifice outlets or Food Chain. As commander it's an entirely different deckbuild, but the payoff cards are similar. As a fan of bad mono color storm decks, I like it.

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

You would be amazed how much time people can make stuff like that take. That coin flip partner pair from battlebond always made me want to tear my hair out when I saw it.

It's different for Zndrsplt, Eye of Wisdom and Okaun, Eye of Chaos though. For those two, you have to roll each die separately, which can indeed be quite tedious. I would add Karplusan Minotaur and Impulsive Maneuvers to that list.

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

I would expect 90% of the decks to be about finding Krark's Thumb and drawing 4+ cards a turn off their commander, which seems tedious for sure

This is my main problem with coin flip decks at the moment. They revolve too much around finding and protecting Krark's Thumb, which implies a great deal of consistency, which kind of goes against the high-variance spirit of this style of play. I would like a legend that acts like the thumb, but only for the first flip each turn, to prevent abuse. That way, you don't need to focus so much on the thumb and the deck will be less almost-all or almost-nothing. I would also like more coin-flip designs that are a bit more innocuous, like Molten Birth. There's no need to go so over the top each time.

Lifeless wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Excessive dice rolling and coin flipping monopolize playtime and IMO that's a cardinal sin.

I'll still take that over Eggs or Extra Turns any day of the week.

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

Wallycaine wrote: ↑

3 years ago

A 3 mana commander that drew 2 cards when it attacked would be pretty roundly panned, imo, and this is barely better than that on average with a significant downside.

I dunno, tymna is pretty popular. Part of that is being a partnerand she does have some sequences where she lets you draw right when she comes down but most of her sequences read draw two pay two if you have dudes to attack with.

I think you're underselling how powerful draw two cards on attack is.. if it just did that it would be one of the best commanders in the game.

Tymna has partner, can draw cards the turn she comes down without attacking, and can draw 3+ cards a game depending on how big the pod is. Also, on average Yusuri is draw 2 cards and he deals 4 damage to you, he doesn't have lifelink, and Izzet doesn't have lifegain the same way that Orzhov does. I'm having a hard time thinking of an archetype that matches up poorly with Yusri. Aggro can finish him, control can remove him, combo outraces him, and other attack commanders just seem better:
Speaking of cards that may be overhyped, I'm trying to determine how good profane tutor is. How does it rank against the other black tutors?
I think waiting 2 turns could turn out to be really bad if your opponents can prep a Opposition Agent, Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt, Ashiok, Dream Render, or Stranglehold.

pokken wrote: ↑

3 years ago

You and I would make it fast. Most MTGS players would. The magic community is not most MTGS players

Can confirm. During my brief brush with an outside group, I encountered ample slow play, which combined with the removal density made the games last for hours.

As for Yusri, I was initially upset with the ease of drawing 2.5 extra cards a turn off a three-drop commander. But I then realised that this wouldn't even crack the MH1 podium, despite that set rocking all of eight legends. Things are a lot less groan-worthy on the whole than they were in 2019.

NZB2323 wrote: ↑

3 years ago

ymna has partner, can draw cards the turn she comes down without attacking, and can draw 3+ cards a game depending on how big the pod is. Also, on average Yusuri is draw 2 cards and he deals 4 damage to you, he doesn't have lifelink, and Izzet doesn't have lifegain the same way that Orzhov does. I'm having a hard time thinking of an archetype that matches up poorly with Yusri. Aggro can finish him, control can remove him, combo outraces him, and other attack commanders just seem better:
Winota, Joiner of Forces
Kaalia of the vast
Zur the enchanter
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Edric, Spymaster of trest
Yidris, Maelstorm Wieler
Gishath, Sun's Avatar
Etali, Primal Storm
Neheb, the eternal
Najeela, the blade-blossom
Varina, Lich Queen
Yennette, Cryptic Sovereign
Narset, Enlightened Tutor
Tymna the Weaver

Tymna requires a bunch of evasive dudes to make that happen, vs. just having to attack one person. However, I was not arguing for Yusri so much as against the hypothetical 'attack, draw 2 cards' commander proposed by WC. Yusri's life loss definitely makes it worse than a lot of commanders, because losing 5 life and drawing 2.5 cards is a lot of life

That said as far as your list goes you're comparing a lot of 5, 6, and 7 mana commanders and that's not really a fair comparison I don't think. Even the 4 CMC ones are a turn slower than Yusri a significant amount of the time, or require a mana dork to achieve parity.

Comparing things like Edric which are symmetrical and require massive amounts of support and Zur, Najeela and Narset who are so groanworthy as to not be playable in most communities is not really a good comparison in my opinion.

I'll reiterate : a hypothetical 3 cmc flying commander who draws 2 on attack is bananas good. There is nothing even close to that. It requires no support, you can just play whatever cards you want and it's great. Yusri, Fortune's Flame is much worse because it bonks you for a huge amount of damage and is unpredictable.

The difference between needing to build your deck around Edric, Spymaster of Trest and being able to just reliably draw 2 every turn in the command zone with zero support is night and day in terms of appeal.

Minor edits to be less aggro Sorry!

So far the alt art treatments for the Adventures in the Forgotten Realms cards - b/w line illustrations meant to evoke the look and feel of first edition AD&D books - really turns me off. The one for the Beholder (card text not yet spoiled) is okay, but the boring Boros dwarf legend is, well, boring, and the Drizzt art is downright terrible. I have fond nostalgia for that era of DnD, but for the most part players back then loved the game despite the art more than because of it.

Now, if they toss in some original Erol Otus art, then we can talk.

JWK wrote: ↑

3 years ago

So far the alt art treatments for the Adventures in the Forgotten Realms cards - b/w line illustrations meant to evoke the look and feel of first edition AD&D books - really turns me off. The one for the Beholder (card text not yet spoiled) is okay, but the boring Boros dwarf legend is, well, boring, and the Drizzt art is downright terrible. I have fond nostalgia for that era of DnD, but for the most part players back then loved the game despite the art more than because of it.

Now, if they toss in some original Erol Otus art, then we can talk.

I am hoping that they aren't all quite so... static. I was learning to draw alongside learning to play DnD, so there's a place in my heart for some of the 3/3.5e DnD style art, but it doesn't look particularly solid yet.

Let's not forget there is a 1/32 clause of drawing 5 cards and literally being able to play out all your spells in the first few stages of the game.
It may sound like big odds but when you get a slew of people playing Yusri, Fortune's Flame then statistically speaking this is going to happen all over the world on a daily basis.
Anyway when people are arguing over whether a card is better or worse than a bunch of top tier commanders, that just means it's a top tier commander.